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Fate, Destiny, Future.

MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
edited March 2011 in Buddhism Basics
In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?

Comments

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Well, the Tibetans wouldn't have an Astrology Institute cranking out professional astrologers if there were no such thing (according to their belief, anyway) as Fate or Destiny. Since when does math say we could predict the future? What have you been reading, MG? :wtf:
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Do a google search for something like:

    "Since (theoretically) the movement and position of every particle in the universe could be measured, the future movements and interactions could be predicted exactly."
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    The future us unknowable to us on many levels, but not random. Each moment is determined by the preceding moment, and progresses through cause and effect, conditionality.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    "Since (theoretically) the movement and position of every particle in the universe could be measured, the future movements and interactions could be predicted exactly."
    I'm not sure I buy this. For one thing, particles don't always behave like particles. They can become waves. So much depends on if there's some sort of observer or not (the presence of an observer changes the particles' behavior). But...I'm not a physicist. One of our newer members is, though. Maybe we'll hear from him.

  • cranreuchcranreuch
    edited March 2011
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    We know nothing about the future. In fact, we don't know if there even is a future. In fact in fact, it's not even clear we now what "future" means.

    "Science" is just a name we give for the pretty lights that flash and glint in front of us. It's highly cool that they are indeed so pretty (a.k.a. apparently ordered). But all we really know is the now.

    Ah-thank you.

    :rockon:

    (Aw c'mon people. I must get *some* enigmatic-ness kudos for *that*, surely!?)

  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    No.

    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    We know nothing about the future. In fact, we don't know if there even is a future. In fact in fact, it's not even clear we now what "future" means.
    Well, they say that past, future and present are all in the same moment, and that it's our puny human minds that perceive them linearly. I guess because our lives appear linear to us; we're born, age, and die.

    Great definition of science, cran! I don't know about enigmatic-ness, but you get the humor prize for the evening. :)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    No.

    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
    No to what? There were two questions. If you say no to both, the universe becomes null and void.
  • cranreuchcranreuch
    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
    Hmm.
    Hmmmm.
    So, maths is a construct of the human mind.
    And string theory is a construct of the human mind.
    Hmmmmmmmm.

    So, what's the human mind a construct of?

  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
    Hmm.
    Hmmmm.
    So, maths is a construct of the human mind.
    And string theory is a construct of the human mind.
    Hmmmmmmmm.

    So, what's the human mind a construct of?

    I was going to say that, but I felt as though that comment would be looked down upon by others.
  • SpacelessSpaceless
    edited March 2011
    Science was developed because of the good intention of mankind like invention of electricity & lighting. It applied mathematics to accomplish scientific discovery. Both are from human mind indeed for the well beings and comfort but it could not solve life & death issue, even harmony of mankind could not be solved by science and mathematics.

    For fate, destiny and future, you may explore this personal experience from a scholar of the Ming Dynasty :
    Liao Fan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Liao-Fan Yuan was born during Ming Dynasty, in about 1550, in Jiangsu Province, Wujiang County. Liao-Fan wrote a book, Liao-Fan's Four Lessons.

    For details, one of many great sutra is Sutra on Ksitigabha Bodhisattva :thumbsup:

    May I dedicate the merits of this sharing to all beings
  • cranreuchcranreuch
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    I was actually being serious before, but let me here be *obviously* serious.

    I can't say what Buddhism has in this context, but you seem to be creating a false dichotomy between math/modern-science on the one hand, and quantum-physics/string-theory on the other.

    In fact they're best lumped together when it comes to this question. And the facts of the matter seem to be, to Einstein's chagrin, that god does indeed play dice with the universe. There is a deep randomness in science. It's not that things *look* unpredictable because our equipment isn't up to the task; it's that things are *fundamentally* unpredictable.

    But, a caveat.

    First, randomness at the quantum level does not imply randomness at the big-world level. Our ability to predict the future appears to be *astoundingly* good.

    But, but, a caveat on the caveat.

    It only *appears* to be astoundingly good. Really and truly, we have NO CLUE what is going on, for any robust definition of "going on". Science is an exercise in epistemology, not ontology (despite what many scientists think). It's back to those pretty lights. Really and truly, we haven't a clue. And more to the point, I can't even conceive of a model that would give us a clue. Well, not a scientific model anyway.

    Maybe enlightenment is a way to figure it out.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran

    So, what's the human mind a construct of?

    Well, the human mind of course...
  • cranreuchcranreuch


    So, what's the human mind a construct of?
    I was going to say that, but I felt as though that comment would be looked down upon by others.
    Yeah but thats 'cuz you're attached to their approval. ;)

    Me, I've lost so much respect via my Types 1-4 debacle that I've hit rock bottom and can't get looked on any more down than I already am.

    :rarr:
  • cranreuchcranreuch

    So, what's the human mind a construct of?

    Well, the human mind of course...
    Euthyphro, Euthyphro, wherefore art thou, Euthyphro.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    It sort of does, but not in the traditional western sense. For instance, it is the only fate of a seed to become the plant it's designed to do, though when and if it germinates are dependent on other factors. This can be observed in a concept such as "anger will not produce liberation" and the second noble truth.

    The most helpful answer might be "Why are you trying to look forward when so much of what is happening now is going unseen?"
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran


    So, what's the human mind a construct of?
    I was going to say that, but I felt as though that comment would be looked down upon by others.
    Yeah but thats 'cuz you're attached to their approval. ;)

    Me, I've lost so much respect via my Types 1-4 debacle that I've hit rock bottom and can't get looked on any more down than I already am.

    :rarr:
    Oh, no, not because I want their approval, I just didn't want the thread to go off topic with that being the entire discussion. Its happened many times before.
  • cranreuchcranreuch

    Oh, no, not because I want their approval...
    I was pulling your leg :)

    I'll shutup now.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    MG, check out Leon Basin's thread, "Liao Fan's Four Lessons". It's about how to change your destiny.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/9779/another-good-and-interesting-book:-liao-fan-s-four-lessons.#Item_1
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    No.

    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
    No to what? There were two questions. If you say no to both, the universe becomes null and void.
    In Buddhism, does a concept such as fate or destiny exist, such as math and modern science suggests (from what I've read, through the correct mathematic equations, we could predict the future accurately)? Or, is our future random (in the sense that, as of now, our future is unknowable), such as quantum physics/string theory suggest?
    No.

    Mathematics and string theory are constructions of the human mind.
    No to what? There were two questions. If you say no to both, the universe becomes null and void.
    The answer is no to both, because all of the above are constructions of the human mind. And the universe will still be there, no matter what constructions of the human mind say about it. It's just a given. To deny the existence of the material universe is to fall into the error of mind-only. The universe does not need us to exist. It did just fine for 14 billion years.
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Oops- sorry for the glitch. I'm still figuring out how this new system works.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited March 2011
    people like daniel, even mohammed, possibly jesus, and the buddha prophecied the future. daniel prophecied the persian gulf war spot on in the 12 or 13th chapter, hitler and ww11 as well, mohammed prophecied the earth would be covered in a haze like smoke and now we have smog, jesus prophecied peace on earth, the buddha prophecied a future buddha perhaps even a women, the maitreya approx 4500AD, 5000 years from the buddha.

    so yes there is destiny a future some rare people miraculously see, but i vehemently deny the idea that we don't have free will, or that there is no such thing as choice. if the prophet daniel predicted a dictator, he had no idea adolf was going to be the one, if adolf had died in ww1 presumably some other really bad man would have been in charge, that's where free will comes in IMHO (ps don't be a hitler, be a buddha)
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Well, the answer is in the middle, as always :)

    There is no free will, but that doesn't matter because there is no-one to have it anyway. :D If it existed somebody would have "his free will". Like Mike's free will or Sara's free will is something they have. This goes against Buddhist teachings because Buddhism is about interdependence of Mike and Sara, about their no-self. Whatever Mike does directly influences Sara and the other way around. If Mike sneezes, Sara will hear it, she can't choose not to. If she jumps up because of it, she also coundn't have chosen not to. And to go further, if Mike really had free will, he would have to choose to choose to sneeze. Or decide to be able to decide to decide. That's obviously not what is going on. :D It's the opposite; the fact we can't decide makes us able to think we do.

    So free will is an ilusion. But destiny or determanism isn't reality either for two reasons. First, as I said there is nothing to be determined and second, there is only the present moment. The past isn't something physical, it doesn't really exist. How can something that doesn't exist infuence what is happening now? I think every moment a new reality is born. Also quantumphysics is showing us that nothing can be predicted, particles happen to be everywhere at the same time and appear somewhere with a certain chance.

    And as Cloud said already, there is conditioning. Theoretically in quantumphysics a chair could just change place in a second. The theory for the chair is the same, but it is only measurable for small particles. The same thing is true for the mind. It can't become enlightened if it isn't conditioned to do so by following the 8-fold path.

    But better not to think about this to much, it will make a person mad. I think the Buddha also said this. Just have a good laugh about it and go on.

    Alan Watts has said a lot of things about this, you might want to look him up. He brought the Buddhist teachings in a funny and entertaining way.



  • Tristram30Tristram30
    Just observe the decisions you make in a day and you will see that there are no decisions at all, it is just life playing out moment by moment as determined by the previous moment ad infinitum. But that doesn't really change anything because we can't predict the future on that basis, as we can't possibly assimilate the required information in order to make a calculation.

    The world of physics and the double-split experiment etc is not relevant IMO as we can't really experience it, except vicariously. I find it is unusual that people turn to complicated science for answers when the answers are right in front of us, black and white.
  • formermonkJohnformermonkJohn
    edited March 2011
    sabre, i don't feel what you say is really smack in the middle path the buddha taught; your so opposite one extreme; everything is concrete and real and just as we see it, and coming closer but not all the way to the other extreme(nihilism); nothing is real, nothing exists, everything is a delusion and so on.

    Hitler chose at a young age perhaps to be hitler, to be grandiose, to be hateful, he had the free will to choose that, it wasn't his destiny to be Hitler, it was some ones destiny to be Hitler, and he made a conscious, decision to be that person, thus he is responsible for his choices, he can't blame his mother's potty training or heaven forbid the jews for his problem,

    hitler was an egotist the ultimate egotist, germans are better, blue eyes are better, i am better, i am the best, that kind of stuff,

    me i'm swing ho the opposite, someday i conceive I will be a buddha, maybe not this lifetime, maybe lifetimes upon lifetimes in the future, but i will be a buddha, why because the buddha teaches me i can and will become a buddha if i follow his path, The Dharma, simple as that. metta sincerely john
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited March 2011
    sabre, i don't feel what you say is really smack in the middle path the buddha taught; your so opposite one extreme; everything is concrete and real and just as we see it, and coming closer but not all the way to the other extreme(nihilism); nothing is real, nothing exists, everything is a delusion and so on.
    Hi John,

    :) I didn't say everything is a delusion or that nothing is real. Everything that can be experienced is real or else you couldn't experience it. How can you experience something that is not real and therefore does not exist? That's not possible.

    But how you reflect on those experiences or is clouded by wrong perceptions, so the way one interprets things might not be right. One can hear something while somebody else didn't, for example. This happens quite a lot. People then say: "did you hear that?". The experience of hearing was real, but the idea that there has to be something that caused it doesn't have to be correct. This can be a wrong perception.

    I know it is hard to see the thin line between determinism and free will, but that is really what Buddhism teaches.


    Hitler chose at a young age perhaps to be hitler, to be grandiose, to be hateful, he had the free will to choose that, it wasn't his destiny to be Hitler, it was some ones destiny to be Hitler, and he made a conscious, decision to be that person, thus he is responsible for his choices, he can't blame his mother's potty training or heaven forbid the jews for his problem,
    So someone really chooses to be angry and hateful? Why don't you choose to be super-happy then? Why don't you choose to be enlightened right now? Or choose to have the best meditation ever next session? Because you can't make a choice like that. Things are conditioned. You can go one way or the other, towards happiness or towards anger, but that's something the mind does, not something you simply choose.
    someday i conceive I will be a buddha, maybe not this lifetime, maybe lifetimes upon lifetimes in the future, but i will be a buddha, why because the buddha teaches me i can and will become a buddha if i follow his path, The Dharma, simple as that. metta sincerely john
    You will if you follow the Buddha's words, indeed.

    Metta,
    Sabre :)
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    I find it is unusual that people turn to complicated science for answers when the answers are right in front of us, black and white.
    You are right, this can be experienced without having any knowledge of science, but I thought it was a nice analogy because it comes really close :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I think our lives come with a general script. Within that script to some extent there's free will.
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