Question About the Dalai Lama

SkyLotus

Okay, so...I'm not entirely sure about this. I have done a lot of reading, but I'm honestly perplexed as to why China even NEEDS a Dalai Lama if they're clearly socialist? I'm seeing all of these news articles that the Chinese Government will 'force' the Dalai Lama to reincarnate, which is absolutely laughable, honestly. So, could someone out there help me understand this a little better? I know that the Cultural Revolution made Tibet out to be this horrible, awful place...I just don't understand the logistics behind it.

Thank you!

federica

It gives them ultimate control politically over the people of Tibet.
I guess.

SherabDorje

The Chinese need an enemy. The Chinese need to have a Dalai Lama that they can call a counter-revolutionary master of serfs and bla bla bla...

I hope he reincarnates in New Jersey. Or as a direct relative of Federica's.

compassionate_warrior

SkyLotus, of course it's absurd for a socialist government to require someone to reincarnate, or to recognize their own candidate as the "official" reincarnation, or to manipulate the system in their favor in some way. That's where politics gets surreal between China and Tibet. I haven't read those articles (do you have a link?), but clearly, this is China's response to HHDL's statements that there may not be any more Dalai Lamas. He's variously speculated that he's the last one, or that he'll be reborn in the West, or that he'll be reborn in female form. The Chinese need to have control over the process (that's why they kidnapped the Panchen Lama as a child, and have kept him sequestered ever since) in order to maximize control over Tibet.

tess

that the Chinese Government will 'force' the Dalai Lama to reincarnate, which is absolutely laughable, honestly.
Thank you!

Could you give some link pls. I would love to read more about it.

From whatever I understand media: Dalai Lama will stop being a political leader not the spiritual one.

tess

a socialist government to require someone to reincarnate, or to recognize their own candidate as the "official" reincarnation, .

This world is crazy :coffee: or :hair:

Or we stop politicians brainwashing us AGAIN. :clap:

compassionate_warrior

From whatever I understand media: Dalai Lama will stop being a political leader not the spiritual one.

Tess, FYI, the story you mention is regarding HHDL's recent decision (though he's been talking about it for over a decade) to delegate political power to an elected official. He already created the position of Prime Minister years ago. I believe now he's talking about creating a new position to take over his political role, if I understood the articles correctly.

But the "bigger picture" question is whether or not there will continue to be an incarnate Dalai Lama as spiritual leader of the Tibetan people after the 14th (current) DL passes away. He has been toying with different scenarios regarding his future rebirth (or lack thereof) for decades. I think for most people, the idea of no more Dalai Lamas is unthinkable.

SkyLotus

@Tess
@Compassionate_Warrior

Here's some links on China 'forcing' the Dalai Lama to reincarnate

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2011/03/china-says-dalai-lama-has-to-reincarnate-closes-tibet-to-tourists/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110307/wl_nm/us_china_npc_tibet

http://www.theidproject.org/blog/lani/2011/03/08/daily-connect-china-trying-force-dalai-lama-reincarnate

zenff

It could be smart to simply appoint/elect both a worldly and a spiritual leader without keeping these offices reserved for one reincarnating person.
It would rule out Chinese intervention and it would prevent a power vacuum during the time the next reincarnation of the Dalai Lama is growing up.

Why the Chinese would intervene when they get a chance, despite their “socialist” worldviews? Because they’re practical and because they realize the Tibetan people look up at the Dalai Lama.

SkyLotus

@Zenff Practical? Are you sure that's necessarily the right word to use? How is invading a culture, stripping it of its natural resources, killing its monks, and tearing down its monasteries practical? If anything, it's ignorance.

zenff

@SkyLotus
I didn’t say they are morally right.

SkyLotus

@Zenff So, then what do you mean in regards to practical? Do you mean in application to how the Chinese view things? Kind of confused on that point. However, as easy as it would be to just divide these positions and have an elected official(s), there is tradition involved, here, which is why it perplexes me. I felt as though the Chinese somewhat divorced themselves from that Tradition along with the Cultural Revolution.

zenff

Sorry if I am unclear.
Just said two things:

1. The Chinese don’t believe in any reincarnation (they are “socialists” in that respect.) They would however wish to grab the opportunity to get more power over Tibetan people, by controlling the person who will be the next Dalai Lama. That’s practical from their point of view and is not necessarily in line with my personal idea of moral behavior.

2. The Chinese can be obstructed in their attempts, by breaking the tradition of reincarnating the Tibetan leader and electing/appointing him instead; both wordly and spiritual.
Again I think that would be practical, from the Tibetan point of view in this case.

Dakini

@Zenff Practical? Are you sure that's necessarily the right word to use? How is invading a culture, stripping it of its natural resources, killing its monks, and tearing down its monasteries practical? If anything, it's ignorance.

there is tradition involved, here, which is why it perplexes me. I felt as though the Chinese somewhat divorced themselves from that Tradition along with the Cultural Revolution.

This is the absurdly ironic thing about the Chinese position. I checked out the articles provided, and the Chinese say the Dalai Lama /must/ respect Buddhist tradition!! :wtf: So, the CHINESE don't have to respect Buddhist tradition, they can trash it freely, but HHDL? Oh no, he MUST respect the tradition, we will FORCE him to respect tradition! :screwy:

zenff

This is the absurdly ironic thing about the Chinese position. I checked out the articles provided, and the Chinese say the Dalai Lama /must/ respect Buddhist tradition!! :wtf: So, the CHINESE don't have to respect Buddhist tradition, they can trash it freely, but HHDL? Oh no, he MUST respect the tradition, we will FORCE him to respect tradition! :screwy:

It can’t be their sense of humor, can it?

Dakini

I can’t be their sense of humor, can it?

Must be. Think about it--how do you force someone to reincarnate? Once they're dead, they're dead, what are you gonna do? And you can't browbeat him about it while he's still alive, that's...too soon, kinda. He doesn't really make the choice until he's in the bardo. Besides, he's in India, not China, they have no access to him, unless he chooses to grant access. The only way to "force" him to reincarnate is simply to fake a reincarnation. But that's not news, everyone knows they've been planning that for ages.

:crazy: At least the Chinese Communist Party is good for something, occasionally--a few pained laughs.

SkyLotus

This is the absurdly ironic thing about the Chinese position. I checked out the articles provided, and the Chinese say the Dalai Lama /must/ respect Buddhist tradition!! :wtf: So, the CHINESE don't have to respect Buddhist tradition, they can trash it freely, but HHDL? Oh no, he MUST respect the tradition, we will FORCE him to respect tradition! :screwy:

It can’t be their sense of humor, can it?

Right? Like @Dakini said, pained laughs indeed.

Jason

Okay, so...I'm not entirely sure about this. I have done a lot of reading, but I'm honestly perplexed as to why China even NEEDS a Dalai Lama if they're clearly socialist?

I think this just further goes to show that China clearly isn't socialist, at least not in the sense of having a more decentralized and democratic economic and political system (I don't think you can have the former without the latter).

Technically speaking, socialism is an economic system, not a form of government. While governments can be more or less socialistic, socialism itself is a mass movement towards economic democracy — collectively owned and democratically controlled production and distribution based on need rather than profit — and an egalitarian, classless society.

While some types of socialism have taken the form of state socialism, whereby the state becomes the sole capitalist in the name of the people, I don't think this can properly be called socialism. Not only are the workers not in control of the means of production, but they're not even in control of the state which is. In this, I agree with the likes of Liebknecht that state socialism is really state capitalism, and I'd argue that China has a capitalist economy that's tightly controlled by an authoritarian political structure.

That said, whatever political economy China has, it's ridiculous for them to try and order the Dalai Lama to reincarnate. It's seriously got to be the most absurd thing I've ever heard a government say, especially one that's taken such great pains to purge the very religion of the spiritual leader it's now trying to control.

Obviously, Mao's Cultural Revolution was a failure if the Communist Party of China has been forced to attempt such a blatant and senseless power grab. They must really fear the Dalai Lama's influence. But common sense should tell them that this not only makes them look foolish and weak, but may very well anger the Tibetan people even more.

Dakini

That said, whatever political economy China has, it's ridiculous for them to try and order the Dalai Lama to reincarnate. It's seriously got to be the most absurd thing I've ever heard a government say, especially one that's taken such great pains to purge the very religion of the spiritual leader it's now trying to control.

:bawl:

Well, we know they're desperate. There's no denying it now.

SkyLotus

@Jason

Right, I completely agree with you. And it IS incredibly ridiculous that the Chinese Government is imposing this. My brother in-law brought up a good point to me earlier, though. He was explaining that, if the Dalai Lama is 'forced' to Reincarnate (which is ridiculous, as someone else mentioned, they have wanted to self-elect a Dalai Lama for a long time now), however, if they do this, they COULD try and assert that this Dalai Lama agrees with the Chinese, and therefore try and get monks to 'side' with the Chinese government. Although, I'm not entirely sure this is necessary, mainly because the Chinese have taken it upon themselves to re-locate Tibetans regardless of resistance or opposition.

There's also the whole concept that Religion doesn't even really...fit? Am I making sense? lol. Capitalism is dependent upon monetary gain, right? I just cannot fit the pieces together.

Dakini

Sky, you lost me. They could try to assert that this DL agrees with the Chinese re: what? They can't choose his reincarnation until after he's dead. And no one would believe that HHDL agrees w/the Chinese on anything, anyway. Undoubtedly there'll be monks that agree, because the Chinese have paid monk-impersonators living in the monasteries, according to a post on this forum recently. But that won't mean anything to the bulk of the Tibetan people, or monks, in Tibet, let alone those outside of Tibet.

And I don't get your reference about relocating Tibetans, and how that has a bearing on getting monks to side with the Chinese. Could you clarify?

In any case, we can be sure the aftermath of HHDL's death will be interesting, and most likely, very painful and messy. Worldwide mourning. I'd rather not think about it. :bawl:

SkyLotus

@Dakini Sorry, that I was unclear! I have a bit of a headache. So, what I tried to say was, that even if the Chinese elected a Dalai Lama, trying to get monks and the people of Tibet to side with China via that elected Dalai Lama would be impossible due to all of the terrible things they have already done. I had no idea about monks being impersonated, that's very frightening, but I am not entirely surprised by it, either. The Chinese Government is pretty much doing everything they can to monitor Tibet. I agree that once HHDL dies, things will certainly become even more strained.

Dakini

Thanks, Sky. I had the feeling something was something interfering with your ability to express your thoughts. I can relate to headaches.

i think the Chinese are planning to find a reincarnation, then bring the Panchen Lama out of wherever he's hidden to approve the reincarnation. But no one will go for the blatant chantage, and it'll just be another uproar with reprisals, etc. There's no solution to the Tibet question. Brace yourself, it's going to be painful.

Cloud

It would be the opportunity of a lifetime to get to meet HHDL and ask him directly what he really thinks. (i.e. not the party-line of either the political role or Tibetan Buddhism... his own perspective)

Dakini

Cloud, I think we know what he thinks. I think, judging by the different possibilities he's expressed over the years, that he's still thinking about it. He's trying on for size different scenarios. The one about appointing a successor is his newest idea. I doubt it's his last. I'm sure the question is weighing on him very heavily, especially as he gets older.

SkyLotus

@Dakini & @Cloud

Do you think that perhaps this is in part, (aside from him being in his position for a very long time) the reason for his retirement?

Cloud

@SkyLotus, He's probably feeling too stretched, pulled from too many angles. He wants to concentrate on what he wants to concentrate on, and he may feel he's a better spiritual advocate than a political one, and that someone could do the political stuff as good or better than he can, freeing him up to pursue spiritual goals as well as be a peace-maker anywhere in the world. Anyone who's ever had multiple responsibilities laid upon them that restricts their personal growth and personal choices in what they'd like to do, likely understands.

SkyLotus

@Cloud

Definitely agree with you there. I think that HHDL has been stretched long enough, definitely. I'm happy that he is going to pursue what he thinks is best which of course, would be spiritual goals. I have always seen him more as a spiritual leader than political, really. (Not that he's a bad political leader at ALL), I'm just saying that I think it would be good for him.

StaticToybox

I think that perhaps the time for the Dalai Lama (meaning the role itself) may be drawing to a close after all these centuries. Tibet itself is, sad to say, probably irrevocably lost to its people, but the 14th Dalai Lama has ensured the survival of Tibet's culture. I'm not sure what further function the office can serve for the people of Tibet. But then this mere speculation on my part.

caz

Perhapes the chinese government have realized that the only way they will gain support is looking after tibetan culture and its institutions, After all the current Panchen Lama is doing a fairly good job trying to benifit others In tibet imagine a future where the Lama's leave the politics to the worldly and concentrate on preserving and promoting their culture and traditions I think the government have gone passed the days of Mao and his aggresive atheistic and anti religious policies and are begining to see the usefulness in preserving these ancient religious structures after all what more could they want if they see it as an extension of their control, The populace are encourage by religious leaders to be hard working good citizens dedicated to virtuous activities and if the government has a measure of control over these figures then all will go smoothly.

Honestly politics is so complicted its far better to let go of these worldly concerns and concentrate on subdueing the mind !

Dakini

@SkyLotus, He's probably feeling too stretched, pulled from too many angles.

Do you think that perhaps this is in part, (aside from him being in his position for a very long time) the reason for his retirement?

I think in general HHDL if feeling like this lifetime is drawing to a close, and he needs to get things in order before it's too late. So he started by resigning from his political position and (from what I understand) creating an elected position for those responsibilities, a move he'd had on the drawing board for many years, and just now saw the need to implement. Next he's looking at the next big issue: his own succession, a very fraught decision--lots of pros and cons no matter which course he chooses. Good luck to him, and may he be with us for a good length of time, yet.