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How to relate to conservative views
Linc
Site ownerDetroit Moderator
I've found myself (a couple of times) wondering how to respond to Christian friends regarding their beliefs. Sometimes, one will say something that is essentially, but indirectly and not purposefully, saying that I am immoral (e.g. for doing something they have decided is immoral) or going to Hell (e.g. for not unconditionally believing Jesus was supernaturally endowed).
Bascially, I get very frustrated when people make these "clear cut" decisions. I like to say that I only have one commandment: don't hurt people. To me, then, it seems that the real "sin" is to be labelling someone else's choices (assuming they don't hurt anyone) as immoral, because doing so hurts that other person. (It's real nice knowing a good friend essentially thinks you're going to Hell no matter how good of friends you are).
Now, if they're just a "friend" it's easy to skate by differences of belief and just ignore it or not really talk about it. However, I've found myself in this situation with friends I love. Is there a way I can come to grips with this kind of conflict?
Bascially, I get very frustrated when people make these "clear cut" decisions. I like to say that I only have one commandment: don't hurt people. To me, then, it seems that the real "sin" is to be labelling someone else's choices (assuming they don't hurt anyone) as immoral, because doing so hurts that other person. (It's real nice knowing a good friend essentially thinks you're going to Hell no matter how good of friends you are).
Now, if they're just a "friend" it's easy to skate by differences of belief and just ignore it or not really talk about it. However, I've found myself in this situation with friends I love. Is there a way I can come to grips with this kind of conflict?
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Just tell them you are their friend, but it kinda hurts or grates.... after all, you don't do the same to them, is there any way they could respect your feelings in the same way? You appreciate their care and obvious concern, but you just don't think the way they do....
And while you can see that it may be a problem for them to see things as you do, at least you don't do drugs or rob with a gun in your hand. you're a nice person!
All I can offer you, Matt... It's worked for me in the past....
Moral or immoral? To me I'd've given the baker a one-two!
Do you see the circle you are engaged in?
There are many people on the earth. It only makes sense there are many positions on the path to enlightenment. Understand that he may very well be trying to be kind with his lesson from his faith.
Could it be your frustration is born from your wanting your friend to be what he is not? That you would like him to be something other than what he is? He can no sooner be what you wish than you can be what he desires.
Treat him with kindness. Thank him for his concern about you and move on to other things is what I would do.
Nice post!
As your friends, they are - by thir own lights - saying what appears best to them for your benefit. That they are wrong does not cross their minds and it would be potenially threatening to them to believe so.
Whilst it is highly unlikely that you will "change their minds" any more than they will change yours, it is still true that their comments may arise from a sense of compassion. It is that compassion which can become the ground you share and where you can continue to meet as friends.
It is, however, extremely difficult to engage with dogmatisms, be they religious, philosophical or political. The only authentic way to do it is to get behind the dogmatics and back to the person.
It is, however, extremely difficult to engage with dogmatisms, be they religious, philosophical or political. The only authentic way to do it is to get behind the dogmatics and back to the person.
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i agree with simon.. my mother is a very conservative christian. i have avoided discussion in this area for years. she is now 89. i steer clear of dogma and politics with her and breathe!!! she is my mother.
The Lord Jesus is her door. Each of us must find our own.
RELIGION IS BASICALLY A CONSERVATIVE THING. It is the cement that binds cultures together; the epistemology and cosmology of a given religion is what most ties any indigenous person to his tribe, after intimate personal relationships.
However, as Jesus said, "The Sabbath (Think Religion.) was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Think Religion.)."
There comes a time when those who have eyes need to see and those who have ears need to hear. Religion is a Guide, not a stricture meant to enchain us. "And the truth will set you free." New times bring fresh challenges and new challenges need different solutions.
I think so many of the ultra-conservative Religionists are JUST CRAZY. I mean that mostly in the sense that one, for instance, might be "crazy" about his or her granddaughter to the extent that he can see no fault in her at all, no matter what. I mean that sort of unthinking, sloganistic mentality that the Republican Party in the USA is so good at manipulating.
Any super-Calvinist that tells you it's for darn sure you're going to hell if you don't already know for sure that you're saved is JUST WRONG. In traditional Christian theology there are the three Theological Virtues, namely: Faith, Hope, and Charity. Now, let's examine the second one, Hope. Hope has not just one opposite, Despair, but also another, Presumption. If I say I know for sure I am going to go to Heaven when I die, I am guilty of presumption, and have implied that I live beyond hope and no longer need additional grace, just the grace I have already secured --like money in a bank account that is guaranteed not ever to go below a certain "comfort" level.
Also, I think there's a certain mean-spiritedness in people who believe in an eternal punishment in the fires or whatever of hell. Perhaps we all experience times when we hope people will suffer punishment for either their misdeeds or shortcomings, but it is certainly not a very productive spiritual exercise, to say the very least!!!!!! For myself, I could not love a Strong-Man-in-Heaven who would design to impose an arbitrary will on me. I could not imagine a Father-God who did not love his children and want them to prosper by their own works and wills and choices.
HOW I RELATE TO ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE VIEWS: NOT WELL
Another thing, I'm sorry to say, but 'tis true, oh so true. Please, Great Spirit, forgive me, for I have sinned, sinned greatly! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
I FEEL SUPERIOR TO THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THEY ARE SUBVERTING CHRISTIANITY AND AT LEAST I'M NOT. Doesn't Buddha say somewhere that one of the most harmful things a man can do is to teach religion when he doesn't understand it?
I believe that TO OVERSIMPLIFY something as complex as the Christian religion IS TO FALSIFY it. They've all fallen back under the Law of Moses, when Jesus came to teach that religion was to do service to spirit in truth ("worhip God in spirit and truth.")
You read the New Testament and it's all about following a new way, walking in love and forbearance and how all people are equal in the eyes of God (That's what the forgiveness of sins means, before all else; not so much that one is individually forgiven and can go on in greater hope. No, more to the point, if all who wish to be are clean inside, then each is a monarch in his or her own home. If he has no home, he's a monarch on the way. Goodbye days of the golden-bodied gods we could only worship, now each is sovreign in his own estate.)
Funny creature, me, eh? One paragraph I talk about my feeling superior; next paragraph the equality of all human beings. So, I'm mixed baggage. I do believe in equality and I love people, even Religionists. But I guess I have a need to distance myself from them, 'cuz I JUST DON'T TRUST 'EM. Love 'em, yes; like them, no siree. I work with a lot of people that are religiously, though not politically, ultra-conservative. Totally unable to listen to a sentence. They can only hear their own thoughts. Their world is too small. They're not interested in enough things.
Biblical religion is to do justice and to plead for those who have no grounding in society. It is not about building up a support network for what Swami Ranganathananda called "a piety-fringed worldliness."
The moral equality of each human being is intrinsic to the Christian gospel. Jesus said to judge (condemn as reprobate or impious) no man, lest you be judged with a harsh judgement. The religionists obviously need to read their Bibles more carefully.
NOW TO MATT'S Particular Issues:
I say, use playful, joking dialogue. You can be a "bigger" Cristian than them. Just quote Jesus (You'll find the perfect quotes.) and laugh at how "narrowly" they see things. Go ahead, play. Have fun with your friends, don't take them too seriously. They're not one-fifth as deep as you are. You have the right.
As for the moral questions, show your best side and don't talk about actions or activities you know they don't want to understand or that they disapprove of. Just think of all the hidden treasure there must be in the world! O you of little faith, think thou that none is to be found in thee? Verily, verily, Truth has spoken and has proclaimed thee to be a very deep soul heavy-laden with great secret treasures.
Just don't be like me. Don't FEEL superior.
And MAY THE FORCE BE WITH THEE!
For instance i have a Jehovah's Witness visit me regularly, and though we have interesting chats i'm always aware of his angle (convert the heathen)
But this guy seems sincere, he obviously believes in what he is saying and wants to share the good news. He believes that he is trying to save my soul from oblivion - and it's quite nice of him to care.
Are your friends not just genuinely concerned for you, and can't find the right way of telling you so?
--Matt 12/29/05
Hamartia (sin), an archery-related term, may mean "missing the mark" in Greek, but "sin" is also anything that causes needless separation with its concomitant pain. We indeed miss the mark when we label other people (as we inevitably do), but self-professed Christians really miss the point when they condemn others as they were commanded not to do. We are all one human family and to separate people out of full fellowship in that due to religious beliefs, mental capacity, lack of religious beliefs, lack of "correct" sexual orientation, lack of financial resources, lack of social skills, &c is devious.
The religious right seeks a monopoly, and, frankly, exhibits bad manners near and far. Perhaps if people over-react a little to their hogwash, it's because they've been victimized a bit too much. Living in the Bible Belt is not for the faint-hearted.
That's who he is and that's what he does.
We are all who we are.
HH
"Thank you for the emails. I would like you to know that I was Born Again last year, and while I appreciate you sharing your faith I prefer to turn to the Source of Christ's teachings. Feel free to send me a Bible."
Magically, her e-mails changed, and she now sends me nice digital pictures of her boat in the Keys.
I can honestly see where you are coming from, years ago, I worked with two God-botherers as we called them, who delighted in teaching us about how we were bad etc. sinners etc. until i said yes i would love to learn more (true) could you please provide me with a copy of the bible-which one of them actually did and then he left me alone.
I still have the bible-and I thanked him for it-because I now have an answer to the question, Have you read the bible? YES! as a matter of fact-it's a nice interpretation of history- (also true-I have read it). What's your understanding of it? usually I then get left alone!
regards,
Xrayman
First, I must agree with TwobitBob... many (but not all, mind you) Christians are truly witnessing to you and trying to convert you out of a genuine concern for your eternal soul. You need to remember, according to the New Testament "It is appointed to a man once to die, and then the judgement" (sorry... don't remember the reference), but the basic point is you only get one chance. They don't want you to blow it.
Also, as you know, most Christians believe that Christianity is the only way. (That is not as bad as it sounds... most religions believe that theirs is the only way). Therefore, out of genuine concern for others and truly believing that theirs is the only way, they would be remiss if they did not earnestly attempt to convert those who do not believe as they do. "Been there, done that."
Equally, they cannot understand how anyone, especially someone who once professed to be a Christian, could ever leave the church. If my wife and her family found out about me they'd have me locked up in a psych ward (and given that my sister-in-law is an MD, they could actually do it). It is truly beyond their comprehension.
I would strongly suspect that the proper Buddhist thing to do would be to politely listen, thank them for their genuine concern, and politely tell them that you will consider what they have said. You can also politely ask that they do not pressure you, for that would pretty much guarantee that you would turn away from what they are saying. That will leave it back to their move. They would not want to force you away... that would be unbearable for them, so they are left to try to just relate to you as a person rather than a project.
Maybe I'm just rambling... I'm _very_ confused at the moment anyway... just ask Fede or Brigid.
-Q
So, from now on, I will politely tell them that I will think about what they've said and that pressure will probably make me less inclined to do so and that I'd like to take my time, considering how important the subject is. How's that? Aside from being an almost verbatim copy of what you just said? LOL!
Thanks, Q.
Brigid
He was basically discuassing the difference between "Thou shalt nots" and Buddhism.
His story went: There is a German family hiding a Jewish family in their attic. The SS comes to the door and says, "Are you hiding Jews in your attic?"
"Thou shalt nots" tell us that we shall not lie. There is no leeway for "this condition" or "that condition". We shall not lie. But where would that leave the family hiding in the attic?
Buddhism teaches the Eightfold Path. Right View, Right Intention, etc. would teach us that if the German family told the truth - the Jewish family would be taken away and harmed or killed.
Buddhism and the teachings of Buddha give us the opportunity to do what is right - just not what has been commanded.
I also believe there is a zealot mentality in some people minds regarding religion that no matter what you say or what you try to impart to them regarding your beliefs - it's not gonna make much of a difference.
But, "by your actions shall you be known" is, IMHO, the best way to show people what you believe. It's easy to talk the talk...
-bf
Personally, I don't think you can get to Right View entirely from reasoning. In this case, Right Action would have to come first, and Right View later.
"No, I'm not hiding Jews in my attic"
(I am, however, sheltering Buddhas.)
'Truth' is relative.
In "The Heart Of Buddha's Teachings" the author talks about how some elements of the Eightfold Path are better to nurture because they make the other elements fall into place much easier. Or at least, that's how I interpreted it with my limited capacity.
-bf
Strangely enough, this is one good reason to find a teacher or well-informed companion. Each of us has favourite, habitual ways of doing/seeing things. Because they are habitual, we have often come to believe them to be the "right" way of being - they have become invisible to us. A "soul friend" or teacher can point them out and help us to nurture those aspects of the Noble Eighfold Path where we are weakest.
For one whose favourite input channel is visual, Right View may be the area in which to work, for the kinaesthetic Right Action and so on. A living teacher, if any good, will choose those aspects of the teaching to the particular strength/weakness of the student.
I believe Thich Nhat Hanh lists them in this order:
Right View
Right Thinking
Right Mindfulness
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Diligence
Right Concentration
Right Livelihood
Not that this is the end-all-be-all order of things. But, the author did state that Right view is the absence of all views. That once Right View is correct, it provides a firm foundation for following "Rights"... and so on and so forth.
-bf
I am currently studying a wonderful book, Geshe Gudrun Lodro's Walking Through Walls (Snow Lion. 1992. copyright Jeffrey Hopkins, ed.) I am only working on the chapters covering calm abiding and have come across a useful distinction between 'natural' and 'adventitious' views.
Thanks Simon.
Brigid
Are you going to tell us about it please?
ECM
I find you both very interesting and believe you also can enlighten us on this distinction between 'natural' and 'adventitious' views.
Sincerely and with admiration,
Nirvana
Actually, I was serious. I am curious to hear about what the book said about natural and advantitious views, and I am hoping that Simon will see these posts and tell us.
As for me, I have always been interested in "views." I think they are very culture bound. For example, in the US, the thing we teach our babies first about manners is "please and thank you." This counts as good manners. In China, the thing they teach their babies is all their relationship titles, like auntie, uncle, older brother, younger sister, the terms for mother's older brother, or father's younger sisters husband... and it goes on and on. I can never remember any of them. But this is "good manners." Families in China don't use please and thank you -- they never say it. "Because why would you thank your mother? She is your mother! Of course you feel grateful." -- as they put it. People in the US are very strong on individualism, and their own individual stance. Chinese folks are much more concerned with their relationships and place in the group. It makes for a very different view of life.
The proper response in China to praise, like your kind words above, is to say, "Oh no, I am not that at all," hanging ones head. In the US I should say, Oh, thank you! So I will say both. How about yourself?
ECM
You and the Pilgrim are truly conciliatory, low-key, and erudite. My "ecclesiastical" affiliation is with the Ramakrishna Vedanta Society of Massachusetts, and their Mother-Monastery at Belur Math, Calcutta, see the American Mission as simply being to exert a gentle influence around major university areas such as Boston, Providence, New York, Berkley/San Francisco, Chicago, and various other places. The age of effective proselytizing for a greater good is over. What is needed now are cool heads, warm hearts, and the sense of urgency to roll up our sleeves and work with the sense that there are no guarantees. I've read your posts and found that you're a minister with family Quaker roots, with backgrounds in the UCC and Episcopal Church USA. My father is an Episcopal priest who grew up Presby, me Catholic. My goal: to be more conciliatory and low-key, like you and Simon.
I don't usually have a lot to say about details of my own life.
I really enjoyed your post about your living in China and having a friend "who helps build schools for kids who live in the really poor areas of China. She is Chinese-American, and has a big belly. When she goes to the schools, everyone jokes about how she brings good luck and she laughs and tells them they can pat her belly! No one is offended." I thought that was abstitively joyous and posolutely wonderful. It is so heartening to see people take their religion on so many levels of meaning and seeing the elements of their faith as metaphors for something else, too.
I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share other such stories.
Views and Thoughts are roughly the same thing, and it is interesting that there are so few people around pointing out that our thoughts often have so little intersection with reality at all. Someone on this site (Palzang, I think.) has as his signature, "Don't believe everything you think." That's Great: Thinking Is One Thing, Reality Quite Another.
Fondly,
Nirvana
You asked about what I do in China -- I teach English for television and make programs for Central TV and the Yellow River Station, English and Chinese. I help several groups, and have had a lot of joy over the years. Well -- to be honest, I have had both joy and pain. But the joy wins out overall! One group I work with is the Golden Key Center, which helps blind children in the areas of deepest poverty in China go to school. The program does not just send children to school -- it also creates systems in the provinces to keep it happening, by teaching the educational bureau directors, leaders of counties, and classroom teachers what they need to know in order to include blind children in classes. The other project I have helped is the Peng Cheng school in Xuzhou, where a grandmother of a special ed child began a school for the children whose IQs were "too low" to attend a regular special ed school, or were rejected for some other reason. In the beginning she had five kids in a hovel. Now there is a beautiful school building, and the building is full to capacity with something like 100 children. The place is joyous and full of light, the teachers incredibly dedicated, and the kids are doing really well. Not to say that nothing ever goes wrong. Joy and sadness/suffering are part of the same cloth. What I love about the special ed school is how everyone helps everyone else. It is a great atmosphere.
ECM
I was just wondering since you're in hip and cool Shanghai!!
Brigid
Matt,
I think one important thing to consider is that you said your friends were saying something indirectly and not purposefully. If that is so then they do not realize they are hurting you. It does not make them exempt from being responsible for what they say, but to borrow something from their beliefs, "forgive them, they know not what they do".
On the other hand, and I know this sounds cold (but stick with me, it warms up!), but you might ask whether or not they are really hurting you with their words of if it is possible you are just taking it too much to heart, if you may be inferring too much from an indirect statement. So let it run off you like water off a duck's back. Where it warms up is that in Buddhism we are offered a practice which seems very much like the Christian notion of loving your enemy, and it is good for both people involved. When a friend says something hurtful to you, try to immediately forget the hurtful thing and mentally suffuse your friend with loving intentions. This way you cut off the roots of the hurtfulness and avoid further agitation, the formation of a grudge, anxiety, regret, and all the other suffering-encouraging mental activities for your own part, which is good for your spirituality but also good for the relationship as it smooths out the bumpy parts of the road of friendship. It also exemplifies the power of the dharma.
I don't know how deep these friendships go, but if there is enough honesty and trust in the relationship, then you might even want to get the issue out in the open, telling them that you are willing to be friends with someone who believes different things (if you really in your conscience find that to be true), and asking them if they honestly feel they can do the same.
I personally believe in conscience and that individuals will have a more or less developed awareness of conscience. But this means that instead of drawing up laws and absolutes to follow without regard to conscience, if we want to help someone to the "right" way, the best we can do for them is to try to make them more aware of their conscience rather inform them about the law that they "must" follow (our belief in the law could even in some cases be a sign of a weak sense of conscience). Exactly how to make someone more aware of conscience rather than rote morality is not always easy to do, but usually labelling the sins of others is probably, in my estimation, the wrong way.
I wasn't planning to go see the Rolling Stones -- but from what I understood most of the seats were bought by westerners, not local Chinese. The RS were around in the years 66-76 when the Chinese were completely out of touch with the west because it was their cultural revolution. They never heard of the Rolling Stones or even the Beatles, so there is no idolization in China of these groups. What would send them wildly stampeding to the concert hall are others -- everyone loved Teresa Deng, who sang sweet songs until her heath some years ago. But we in the west would have no idea of who she was. I like her songs. They are soft and kind, but also musically interesting. Rock is very strong and individualistic -- often rebellious. That doesn't go over in China very well, where most people are group oriented and have rebellion only in their own living rooms.
By the way -- Chinese people have a very funny view of hippies. They think they were all dirty and disgusting.
Shanghai does have that hip and cool atmosphere. I like just being who I am -- not having to follow someone else's definition of hip and cool. That means wearing comfortable clothes. I like flat shoes, not high heels, and makeup makes my face skin unhappy. So I am more comfortable in Beijing, where the people are more relaxed about life, and don't need to feel "cool." So -- when all the Shanghai people whiz by in their high heels and leather jackets, and I have my down jacket on, I just imagine myself as a Beijing Roast Duck!
ECM ;-)
Why?:wtf:
Because they can! They are the greatest Rock 'n Roll band the world will ever know!!! :rocker: :rockon: :ukflag:
(They better be supporting a HUGE number of charities, though.)
ECM,
I'd be more comfortable in Beijing, too. I can't wear heels even if I wanted to and make up is a thing of the past. I hate make up being on my face, drives me nuts. Shanghai sounds like Montreal, where I'm from originally. I used to be very stylish when I was younger but now I live on a nice, quiet farm and don't have to care about any of that stuff. It's all about comfort here.
Thanks so much for sharing your perspective. So interesting to me. I love the internet!
Brigid
They do it because they need money like everybody. Don't know about their charity life. Wish they would send some to the charities I help over there. There is always a distinct lack of money for things like education for the blind or special ed kids. I agree about their style. I liked the Beatles a lot, but the Rolling Stones never appealed to me -- although I completely agree about their fame. Didn't the Rolling Stones have the longest running hit on the charts -- longer than the Beatles?
The internet is wonderful. I really appreciate the way we can talk like this. It's so nice to know all of you.
ECM
Love,
Brigid
I've had the conversation with my dad before where our views clashed, but instead of getting into a heated debate over anything or instead of letting words get to me, I instead educated him as to where my views come from and why I believe what I do. The best thing to do in your situation is let them say what they do, and if you don't believe what they say (about Jesus being the son of God), then don't. I myself have been indifferent, I just let the teaching sit in my head, and I accept it. There's no reason for me to try to contradict it, it dosen't really matter untill it comes time to pray.
As for beliefs in general, speak with the other person and in a friendly way, explain what you believe in, but try to avoid to contradict what they say. If they choose to say something else or try to push their views onto you, just brush it off (like Vacchagotta mentioned).
If you've read through any of the different threads in this particular section of the forum, you will have discovered that many here are in the same boat as you - or at least have held a tiller of their own....
Nice to have you with us.
it sounds like you are doing really well -- nice to meet you!
ECM