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Non-self, Again
ThailandTom
Veteran
Okay, so I understand that there is no such thing as a permanent, unchanging self. I understand that 'I' am not independent from everything around me, be it the grass outside or a rock on the moon, I understand I am physically made of recycled stuff, but how does this give one insights or lead to liberation? I fail to see how it helps in life, how to adapt it. Maybe I am not viewing it correctly...
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Not-self shows that we are just products of the past - so we aren't just ugly, fat, stupid, etc, because you were cursed; you're just a product of the past. Though, those terms aren't even true in the first place either. So, sort of understand?
Tom I think you are in a place that needs patience. Let the difficulties goad you into morality and renunciation. Take joy in simple things. The water in the morning and the sun. Breathing. A smile or bow to 'the buddha'? Music?
With a light touch. Love yourself when you do immoral, complicated, or grumping, or glooming.
A student writes:
I know you are very busy, but I was very puzzled about no-self as discussed in book 3 of the course (Discovering the Heart of Buddhism).
What I cannot understand is that if the self is non-existent, what motivates people to do things, such as this course?
Lama Shenpen replies:
Do I actually say that the self is non-existent? I didn’t mean to. What the Buddha always taught was that what was impermanent, unsatisfactory and not as we wanted it could not be the self - the self is the one who wants happiness and none of the things we grasp at as self provide that happiness - our whole idea of our self causes us suffering - so who is the us that discovers that? It is the un-grasping self, the true self, the self that is not impermanent, not suffering, that is as we want it to be. It is the Buddha Nature. When we discover that, we realise that this is what we always wanted but sought in the wrong place in the wrong way. We found aspects of it that we tried to grasp at and own but they just became unsatisfactory as soon as we grasped them -in fact we tried to grasp them only to find we had grasped at thin air - but instead of just ceasing to grasp, we became terrified and grasped more and more - and became more and more confused and still were left with just thin air. It is only when the fundamental awareness of our being turns towards that thin air, and recognises its experience of itself for what it is, that it can relax the grasping reaction and let that truth be.
You could call that the end of ego grasping and the life of the true self - or true nature - the ultimate reality of what we are. It is not something we can know by the grasping mind. It is not something to believe in as a concept – it’s a reality that discovers itself!
So it itself is motivated to discover itself and do this course!
Student:
If it is purely awareness reacting to circumstances, we would not get out of bed.
Lama Shenpen:
Volition is actually an aspect of that fundamental awareness - even our volition that tries to grasp, is an aspect of fundamental awareness - but it is confused awareness. It wants the joy of life to the full, it wants the happiness of all beings, but in its confusion it does not recognise that this is possible and so chooses lesser goals that seem more attainable. Actually none of the lesser goals bring the happiness it longs for - nonetheless the search for happiness drives us on and on from life to life. What will stop that? Realising that happiness is in awareness itself and so giving up searching for it elsewhere. That is what motivates you to follow this course. A part of you - the Buddha nature part - recognises something true about what you are discovering in your direct experience and that is motivating you to look deeper - because it’s true and it brings a feeling of rightness and happiness. Even if it’s painful, it feels alive and true and as if all this is going somewhere meaningful.
And all that is sensed by awareness itself as within itself, not something that it can grasp as an idea but something it can live, it can follow and it can find meaning in.
Do you think that is true?
Student:
Christians put a lot of faith in the soul, which they believe is a separate unchanging entity. Surely, if there was nothing there, one of them would have noticed by now.
Lama Shenpen:
You get all kinds of Christians like you get all kinds of Buddhists. Some have strong conceptual beliefs that they just trot out and say they believe in - they don’t want to think too much about whether their beliefs are true or not. They just want something to cling on to that confirms them in their idea of themselves.
Some Buddhists are like that too.
Other Christians are connecting deeply to their hearts and discovering what is genuine and true in their experience - and they find what anyone finds who does that. So they talk about their experience in much the same terms as we would.
As for soul - well it just depends what one means by it doesn’t it?
that my friend is enlightenment. now how people awaken i have no idea. all i know is that you set up the right conditions for it and you wake up to the fact.
all of buddhism is existential rather than information. information is useless for without the experience its just knowledge/philosophy. just open up to the nothingness that is you and maybe existence will shower grace upon you.
Well it's more complicated than that in my opinion. I never had a very satisfying life. You could say I was slightly and silently morose ever since I was a kid. But I was took pride in certain characteristics about me that set me apart from everyone else. I built my sense of identity based on such things. And you could say in a sense that my sense of identity, of self-pride got me through most of the hardships in my life. I also built an elaborate value system for myself.
Along comes buddhism and tells me, the rules I made for myself are worthless. You got to admit it's kinda hard.
Well, I know that for me it's the hardest thing to face. I notice how I'm losing my "edge" in a way. I liked being sarcastic! I liked making fun of people in a light hearted way! I liked keeping people guessing and playing with their prejudices about how I was (many thought I was this really tough guy, when I'm the most sensitive person I know). I liked a lot of things. I liked my zaniness. I liked pointing our people's hypocrisy and felt it was needed. Now I find I can't take pride in any of these things I thought made me who I am.
Buddhism is about finding happiness. Find what REALLY makes you happy. Some things I have found like drinking didn't really help me. But I am still a lot of other things, not like a somber person.
@taiyaki Yea, I cannot remember now where I first heard this, but you can have a vast amount of knowledge in your head, insights and wisdom, but if it merely remains as a thought and nit practiced, it is useless. This is why I am trying daily to contemplate this notion of non self. I understand that I am not independent from the world and change a thousand times a second, but I still fail to adapt this to my practice in a productive manner. Striving and clasping will hinder me, I know this. As Ajahn Chah stated, to reach enlightenment, you should have no desire to be there.
But anyway, there is no self, okay, but there is my consciousness... What is this... it gets affected and influenced by this ever changing interconnected world. Is not separate from your consciousness?? From my research and practice the answer is no, but I cannot see how
Consciousness arises dependent upon conditions, it is not a permanent thing that is always on; it is not a self/soul. If there is no object of consciousness, there is no consciousness (awareness). Try and think of any moment of consciousness not related to some object; to a thought, feeling, sight, sound, etc. (it doesn't happen). It just happens so quickly, and is always a part of your experiences, that you don't see it arising and falling along with its objects.
Meditation is required for this. Consciousness is something we hold onto as "I" even after we've let everything else go, until we finally penetrate Not-Self fully through direct experiential insight and enter the stream leading to Nirvana.
Or something.
P
I'd suggest you to meditate and be very silent. Everything that disappears during meditation, for example your thoughts, that's not you. Because whatever is you should be consistent and never change, do you agree? So whatever disappeared, that from that moment on will be your view of non-self. When you get deeper more things will start to fall away. You can only understand this by experience. The fact you are not happy tells me you don't understand.
So how does insight liberate you? For example if the sense of the body disappears in meditation, your mind starts to see the body as no-self. Then you will know you don't need to keep it beautiful like a pop star or in shape like a bodybuilder, because it is just a vehicle you reside in. (but do keep it healthy
But indeed what Jeffrey says, be peacefully happy. If you feel this no-self view makes you sad, maybe focus more on interconnectedness and share loving kindness towards others for a while.
Whatever brings no peace and happiness is not Buddhism
Sabre
My question to you is:
You say you understand all of these things. But who is understanding?
The mind can't exist or function separate from it's objects, so it is no soul, not everlasting. No knowledge can arise without external conditions.
This is a very, very difficult subject to grasp, not to be explained in words, so what I suggested to Tom before I'd also like to suggest to you.
Sabre
I shall get my meditation cap back on
This is what I think:
What we think of as our “self”, or personality or ego, is also subject to impermanence and conditionality like all other phenomena. It is not anything special or different. The “self” is nothing more than temporary creations of the skandhas or five aggregates (matter, sensations, perception, mental formations, and consciousness). It is not a permanent, unchanging, independent and ever-lasting entity behind a changing phenomenal world, like the Upanishadic “Self”, which was taught by other teachers in the Buddha's time. So, we do have a self afterall, only it is not like the Upanishadic Self. Also, we accept it as a conventional truth; and it's needed to function in this world.
The Buddha taught in a culture where other teachings incorporated a permanent, everlasting SELF and this was in conflict with the Buddha's own teaching. Therefore, the Buddha rejected this idea of a permanent, everlasting self. So, guess what? Anatta simply means the rejection of a permanent, everlasting self that transmigrates from one lifetine to the next like in Hinduism. It does not mean that there is no self with the same characteristics as other phenomena, that is impermanent and conditioned.
Start by knowing what we call “I” or a “being” is just a composition of the skandhas. Don't hold any opinions like “I have a self” or “I have no self”.
Caution: There could be some "wrong views" in my post. If so, please correct me.