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Pastor loses job after questioning hell's existence
When you work for someone else -- and I assume this pastor works and gets paid for by the Church -- you're being paid to get across your bosses' message, not your own personal beliefs.
It does not sound like this pastor was terminated solely for his beliefs about hell; apparently his congregation took exception to some internet postings on gay marriage and the mix of patriotism and religion. I assume he was in the midst of a liberal drift quite apart from the influence of Bell.
That being said, I don't know that I agree with the the employment model for a religious institution. You are not only being paid to get the message of the larger church across, particularly in most Protestant denominations. You are being paid (fairly poorly) to minister to your congregants, part of which includes the church message, to be sure. But there is more to it then that; if you have a theological disagreement that is not necessarily grounds for terminating the relationship with the church. It can be, but that does not mean that it always is.
Anyway, I think that the entire enterprise of Christianity (and the Abrahamic faiths in general) is wrong-headed and I don't have a dog in this fight. Interesting article, though.
The Pastor should know there's already a religion out there that teaches universal salvation and other "liberal values", like asking what part of Unconditional Love don't people get? It's the UU group (Unitarian Universalism).
There are two points of doctrine you don't question in the Christian churches, then or now: the physical resurrection of a dead man named Jesus and that non-Christians are going to be tortured for eternity while the faithful spend eternity in paradise. That's nonnegotiable. Either one will get you kicked out.
I can speak for the Catholics when I assert they have created large and logical arguments which allow all "good' people a seat at the heavenly table. So there is four or five hundred million Christians whom do not believe "non-Christians are going to be tortured for eternity." I am not sure of Catholic policy for someone who has "heard the word of Christ." After you get the"good news' and if you ignore it, you may head south for eternity. In that case,I will see those like this there.
Reminds me of a story. A man asks a preacher, "if you don't know about God and Jesus, and heaven and hell, do you go to hell when you die?". The preacher says "well, no...", and the guy responds "then why did you tell me!?". Some people just can't make up their mind what constitutes getting into one place or the other, especially the thought that "good people" might not get into heaven if they're not Christians, which seems a hefty penalty considering the alternative destination.
I'm not surprised this guy got the can if he says hell doesn't exist; hell is the great motivator in Christianity. It's the fear factor that's always the bottom line. You'll burn in fiery torment if you don't believe! Can't do without that one. Otherwise getting into a paradise would just be a bonus, not the only safe place you can hope to go.
At some point - In e zen- retreat in a catholic monastery – I asked the abbot/zenteacher if he believed in hell. He responded that he was with Therese of Lisieux on this. He said he believed there was a hell, but he did not believe any one would actually end up there. The place is uninhabited.
Maybe (for future pastors) that’s a way of keeping their jobs, without threatening people with eternal hell.
Scary stuff. The most explicit depictions of hell seem to come from Revelations which, IIRC, is one of the more psychedelic books of the bible. After the transfiguration of Elijah, that is...
Maybe depends on which bible you read...I have had contact with Jehovas and they are not into Hell belief.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
my great grandmother on my mother's side used to be some sort of baptist (sorry, i really can't remember what denomination). she had a child who died within days of birth and was not able to get the child baptized. she asked the preacher what would become of the child, not being baptized, and he simply replied, "it's best not to think of such things." my great grandmother was so appalled that the man could imply her innocent child would spend eternity in hell just because he/she had died too soon. she left that faith immediately and i think as a result of this, my mother's side is very liberal regarding religion.
The OP just posted the article for discussion. The OP does not believe in the Christian hell and never did. I just think it's interesting that an evangelical is starting to change thought about eternal damnation.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
you know, just thinking over all of this, rob bell played a very important part in my young adult life. a friend took me to his church during a very difficult time in my life and it was there that i first felt acceptance and love instead of hatred and fear. i wouldn't give him all the credit, but during that time i was seriously contemplating suicide as an escape from my loneliness and suffering. i've grown past all that now, but at the time, love was what i really needed to hear. i had no idea that his messages were so subversive and offending to many other christians. that fact alone astounds me. i honestly never knew that he didn't support the idea of hell, but i know i never have.
There's an awfully lot than none of us will know until that last breath is over. I have no idea whether there is or is not a hell. Or, if there is, what it's like.
But if I'm being paid to preach the beliefs of a certain faith, and I find I cannot do that, then I'd resign and find a church where I believed in what they accept.
It's no different than a drama teacher we once had working in our public school. He got very upset about girl's apparel, and would sometimes lecture them about how they were behaving in a way that would lead them to hell (he was a strict born again Christian). When the complaints began coming in from parents, he first got a verbal warning. He continued. He then got a written warning. He continued. He then got a written ultimatum. He continued. We canned him. He was not doing the job he was hired to do.
And that's the way I see this defrocked minister situation. He wasn't doing the job he was hired (and probably signed a contract) to do. It's much different when the minister doesn't follow all the precepts of a faith than it is when a parishioner doesn't. Certainly he's entitled to his own opinions, but he's hired to teach a certain religious "curriculum".
It's not the first time a Minister was shown the door. My first Zen meditaiton teacher was a UU Minister who was tried for heresy, basically, way back in the 1960s by the Christian church he was working for at the time, and found guilty.
But I was raised in a fundamentalist household in a family with a tradition of generating Preachers, and the concept of Hell and eternal damnation was what caused me to finally walk away.
And how do the good people who worhip in that church deal with Hell? Well, somehow at every funeral I've gone to, it was announced that even loved ones who never set foot in church accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior on their deathbed. The people who worship at those churches aren't monsters, you know. They are ready to admit that evil people are being tortured in Hell, but the people they actually know aren't evil, just weak and victims of the Devil at most. So there are a lot of last minute saves.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
And how do the good people who worhip in that church deal with Hell? Well, somehow at every funeral I've gone to, it was announced that even loved ones who never set foot in church accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior on their deathbed. The people who worship at those churches aren't monsters, you know. They are ready to admit that evil people are being tortured in Hell, but the people they actually know aren't evil, just weak and victims of the Devil at most. So there are a lot of last minute saves.
true. my great uncle tried to save my grandmother on her death bed because she had walked away from the catholic church MANY years ago. the rest of our family sort of just gave a unanimous, "huh?" i actually remember feeling quite offended, as if he was commenting on her moral character, but i guess to him, it wasn't even about that. i see that now.
Comments
So you are not allowed to think as you please really...
That being said, I don't know that I agree with the the employment model for a religious institution. You are not only being paid to get the message of the larger church across, particularly in most Protestant denominations. You are being paid (fairly poorly) to minister to your congregants, part of which includes the church message, to be sure. But there is more to it then that; if you have a theological disagreement that is not necessarily grounds for terminating the relationship with the church. It can be, but that does not mean that it always is.
Anyway, I think that the entire enterprise of Christianity (and the Abrahamic faiths in general) is wrong-headed and I don't have a dog in this fight. Interesting article, though.
There are two points of doctrine you don't question in the Christian churches, then or now: the physical resurrection of a dead man named Jesus and that non-Christians are going to be tortured for eternity while the faithful spend eternity in paradise. That's nonnegotiable. Either one will get you kicked out.
I am not sure of Catholic policy for someone who has "heard the word of Christ." After you get the"good news' and if you ignore it, you may head south for eternity. In that case,I will see those like this there.
Thanks for the vid. I am not of the Christian persuasion but that guy sounds like he is really seeking and questioning.
All the best,
Todd
I'm not surprised this guy got the can if he says hell doesn't exist; hell is the great motivator in Christianity. It's the fear factor that's always the bottom line. You'll burn in fiery torment if you don't believe! Can't do without that one. Otherwise getting into a paradise would just be a bonus, not the only safe place you can hope to go.
He responded that he was with Therese of Lisieux on this.
He said he believed there was a hell, but he did not believe any one would actually end up there. The place is uninhabited.
Maybe (for future pastors) that’s a way of keeping their jobs, without threatening people with eternal hell.
Anyone else got any bible quotes about a Hell?
/Victor
http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
Scary stuff. The most explicit depictions of hell seem to come from Revelations which, IIRC, is one of the more psychedelic books of the bible. After the transfiguration of Elijah, that is...
But if I'm being paid to preach the beliefs of a certain faith, and I find I cannot do that, then I'd resign and find a church where I believed in what they accept.
It's no different than a drama teacher we once had working in our public school. He got very upset about girl's apparel, and would sometimes lecture them about how they were behaving in a way that would lead them to hell (he was a strict born again Christian). When the complaints began coming in from parents, he first got a verbal warning. He continued. He then got a written warning. He continued. He then got a written ultimatum. He continued. We canned him. He was not doing the job he was hired to do.
And that's the way I see this defrocked minister situation. He wasn't doing the job he was hired (and probably signed a contract) to do. It's much different when the minister doesn't follow all the precepts of a faith than it is when a parishioner doesn't. Certainly he's entitled to his own opinions, but he's hired to teach a certain religious "curriculum".
But I was raised in a fundamentalist household in a family with a tradition of generating Preachers, and the concept of Hell and eternal damnation was what caused me to finally walk away.
And how do the good people who worhip in that church deal with Hell? Well, somehow at every funeral I've gone to, it was announced that even loved ones who never set foot in church accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior on their deathbed. The people who worship at those churches aren't monsters, you know. They are ready to admit that evil people are being tortured in Hell, but the people they actually know aren't evil, just weak and victims of the Devil at most. So there are a lot of last minute saves.