Aversion vs. being tired in everyday activities

mithril

This is something that i've been thinking for a while now, so i hope someone could share some insights.

What i don't really understand is the concept of aversion in Buddhism.

For example, if i read some books i find easy to understand, i can read for a long time. Than on the other hand, i may have to read a book that i think will require more concentration, so after a while i feel 'tired' in a way. Occasionally i will stop reading a book thinking "i just gotta go eat something" but when i reach the fridge i realize i'm not actually hungry at all.

So possibly this is just the same as the fact of always getting uncomfortable after a while in meditation (although if you move you can than keep moving all the time, since theres always something wrong - like your leg is in a painful position, you just happen to be sitting an inch away from the comfortable place on the cushion... I'm sure some who meditate in a sitting position can relate XD). But the usual advice is just to watch your thoughts and feelings regarding it. Also, mindfulness should be done all the time if possible in life if i understand this right.

So if i start reading complicated books 5 mins at a time i should probably be able to extend the time and do it for longer and longer as can be done with meditation? Thing is then, how do i know when my mind just wants to get away from the topic that it thinks is boring, and the time i really have to rest?

Also, is there a thing as getting burned out with meditation? Or mindfulness? ... How can it happen with studies then?

Jeffrey

I think some of the feelings of tired are signals from your body and mind. You may try to forge forward, but if you do it in a heavy self whipping way what happens is the balance needed for meditation or any other activity gets disrupted. Sano's lute string which you can delve deeper into by looking up Indriyas (is that spelled right, ask me).

Sometimes the right meditation is to do a shorter meditation to keep the practice consistent and then take a respite which rejuvenates you. Its an intuitive thing and don't be afraid to make mistakes. Discipline in my opinion comes from the heart and the wish to be happy. Thinking 'oh I am a bad buddhist' Is just that. Thinking.

Many people meditate for years and they never question why they are doing it. I have given up on meditation sometimes and just let it drop and rise again and it made it lighter and more curious open joyful. Not to mention it felt immediately good to let it go.

SherabDorje

IMO these are things you just have to figure out for yourself by looking at how you are feeling at the time, identifying the feeling, and deciding what to do about it.

mithril

So is there somewhere mentioned the concept of the possibility of getting burned out?

Because i really wonder about that, since if there isn't, than, as i understand it, according to Buddhism, it is just possible to keep pushing oneself more and more forever. Which is quite against popular opinion (that we need vacations, time off work etc). Is somewhere mentioned the concept of the possibility of getting burned out?

Thing is, i don't really feel i'm pushing myself at the moment; maybe i'm even holding myself back, because all the magazines and blogs and such i ever read, take it for granted, that one must not work to full capacity because it can harm you in the long run.

I'm aware that one should not try to force ones mind into stuff like not thinking while meditating, since it can hinder progress.

But at the moment, so much of my understanding (the knowledge kind though, not the being in the moment and such =P) is just kinda, well, opening up in all directions, i'm starting to think of my daily life in terms of what they teach us at school and i'm just so inspired i could work myself to death XD But really, i'm just kinda, no, lets rather not, i have been studying for 3 hrs, now i MUST watch a movie... nah ill just do one more bit... stop it HAVE TO WATCH MOVIE NOW.

Umm, yeah, where was i^^...

I know in some time, ill be ranting around pissed at everything, and how sick i am of doing the same stuff, thinking up reasons to myself why i'm not doing my work at that moment. But that's part of the 'waves on the surface' thing i guess. The best thing would probably be just to always work at the same pace, but since theres no tangible result to what i do i can't really do that - i can't schedule the amount time i will do something because than half of the time i'll be dead exhausted; and the other i'll be like, i really should do something sometime... Same goes for deciding on the number of pages, some are bloody impossible while others are like listening to birds on a sunny day.

In sum, Buddhism says when you stop doing something, its possibly just your mind being aversive about the object of meditation, and thus you stop being mindful (meditation or other time). Therefore, to prevent missing the realization of this, one is advised to continue what he was doing while being mindful of his feelings. In the long run, thats how the practice is extended. But since you are doing it daily, according to popular belief (but as far as i know not Buddhism), one will burn himself out.

I really wonder what the Buddhist opinion of this is...

And, do you guys ever forbid yourself to meditate when you feel especially inspired to do so?

((You have no idea how i wish to have to ability to ask questions in one sentence >.<...))

fivebells

Don't confuse Buddhist practice with academic study. If you shut down while reading a book, the usual response is to fight the shut-down so you can keep going. If you shut down while meditating, the ideal response does not involve fighting, but studying the shut-down in a certain sense. This leads to a rebalancing of the energies behind the shutting down, whereas fighting it leads to a build-up of those energies, which can later result in burn-out.

What you're describing sounds like a void reaction. They are hard to work with, sometimes, because they directly degrade attention. It is very doable, though. Does your question arise from something which is coming up in your own practice, or were you just asking for information?

mithril

Does your question arise from something which is coming up in your own practice, or were you just asking for information?

Umm i'm really not sure, i guess mostly out of curiosity as i think it has big implications but is rarely talked about (like how could anyone concentrate on one task for so long without a vacation) but also as an extension to my previous topic, as i decided to somehow merge my studies and Buddhism, as i just cannot see it how to completely diverge two paths, or rather would not like to give up one if favour of another (as all i do, i do as a kind of single, umm, agent? (as in artificial inteligence)).

I feel Buddhist practice could be applied to academic study, as it is applied to martial arts (as an example, the shaolin monastery, although i think the pupils that run up and down the mountain don't have the dilemma of whether they are tired or aversive ). I do not find them the same, but rather one (Buddhism) that could be applied to the other (academic study).

So basically if you do things in a "heavy" way you can burn yourself out, if you don't force yourself, but rather go around your mental obstacles mindfully while doing whatever you happen to be doing (activities; like studying, gardening, sitting, walking, whatever) than you will not burn yourself out. So i guess what you guys are saying is that i should work with acknowledging stuff (like "i feel tired, but will work for 30 more minutes to see if i really have to rest, and examine why i feel reluctant to study this chapter"), rather than trying to repress it (like i feel like shit but i don't care i will do this anyway, drink coffee till theres none left and the shops are closed and i don't care why i don't wanna do it i will not think about it, how horrible, i must do it because they make me, i cant wait till i get rid of this).


Anyone disagree or has anything to add/suggest? (always just too welcome^^)


Other than that, i got two following questions regarding...

What you're describing sounds like a void reaction. They are hard to work with, sometimes, because they directly degrade attention. It is very doable, though.

1. What do you mean with a 'void reaction'. Do you know of any resources i could look into regarding it?

Sano's lute string which you can delve deeper into by looking up Indriyas (is that spelled right, ask me)..

2. As far as i understand the string should not be too tight or too loose, as someone should not work too hard or be too lazy; i looked up Indriyas in wikipedia, but i don't understand how i can add the knowledge there to improve my practice... What regarding them were you thinking i should look into? I guess i don't really understand what you were trying to say there?

fivebells

I feel Buddhist practice could be applied to academic study, as it is applied to martial arts (as an example, the shaolin monastery, although i think the pupils that run up and down the mountain don't have the dilemma of whether they are tired or aversive ). I do not find them the same, but rather one (Buddhism) that could be applied to the other (academic study).

This is possible, but it has been damn hard for me. Sitting back and letting intellectual activity run in a field of open awareness is difficult, perhaps because we identify so strongly with that activity.

1. What do you mean with a 'void reaction'. Do you know of any resources i could look into regarding it?

Buddhist theory classifies emotional reactivity into five categories. The description here may be useful. It's also described in this talk (part of this retreat. (There's an overview talk at the bottom of that page.)