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Confession of a Buddhist Atheist
Has anyone had a chance to read Stephen Batchelor's new book Confession of a Buddhist Atheist. If so, what are your thoughts?
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Not yet, but a have good friends who are big fans of Stephen's work.
He definitely adds a valuable perspective to the discussion.
The Buddha completely extinguished his suffering & mental defilements.
We ourselves have not completely extinguished our suffering & mental defilements.
It is best we have a little humility about this and work via acceptance from the place we are at (rather than become Batchelor atheists promoting untruthfulness).
There is an end to suffering, here, now, today. Without that faith, what hope & motivation do we have?
This makes his perspective a valuable one in the discussion and valuable perspectives lead to greater understanding.
Anyone read the book and can shed light on this aspect?
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
There are many open-minded practitioners and scholars who do not agree with many things that Batchelor has to say, that doesnt make them static dogmatists.
Please forgive my haste in this post. I think he brings up some good questions questions and challenges certain ideas. I have finished reading the book. Now as I look at it as a whole it is like he is trying to come to terms with his early practice as a monk. I think in a way he felt let down....so you put all this time and work into your practice and it didn't turn out as you had hoped wished ect. That's his baggage. This book actually put me into a tailspin.... was I an atheist/agnostic too? I started really questioning what I thought and believed. Deep down I think my ego wanted to reassert itself and some long cherished notions I had about my beliefs. So I am an agnostic, can I be a Buddhist? for so long I maintained in my own mind there is no god, there is nothing higher than me, that people of faith were deluded. These ideas started unraveling with my practice. I won't say there is a god but I won't say there isn't. I have faith, I have devotion. I have found a jewel in this world that is the Dharma. I think Mr. Batchelor lost this, which is sad. He does bring up some interesting questions regarding rebirth, enlightenment, the potential that Buddha was an agnostic and also looking into the Pali canon, stripping away what are strong Hindu influences (that would have predated the Buddah) with the intent of trying to get at the heart of who our founder was. I have been inspired to get past the story of Shakyamuni and find his essence, his spirit. I have in a way discovered that I am a person of faith and beliefs and wound't have described my self this way before. It prompted deep introspection in what I actually believe and feel in my heart. Again please forgive my hast and rather unskillfull post I ws going through an unskill (and painful) period in my practice. A deep Gassho.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
I feel that the teachings on karma, and rebirth are completely rational and valuable. Maybe they arent to all practitioners, that doesnt really matter to me.
The problem is when we start taking ideological stances on things like this. A hardened idealogical stance closes us off to further understanding.
If one accepts and actually understands and appreciates karma and rebirth as it is taught in Buddhism and disagrees with someone who is proposing a different view that doesnt make them dogmatic. If they are belligerent and completely frozen by their ideas and therefore unable to appreciate the value of another persons well-thought-out opinion, then they are dogmatic and rigid.
People can disagree and the conversation can be fruitful as long as all parties are willing to engage in an active and open discussion. This is why I appreciate Batchelor's contribution. He has put in the time and effort to understand the teachings and usually presents his views based upon that background. The new book is a bit more polemical that he has been in the past in my opinion. I dont think its his best work.
The idea of a permanent identity is the problem, not that the idea of some kind of continuity indicates permanence. I dont think it does.. Sure on the six realms though, there are different opinions and interpretations of this. The one that I find most useful is one that refers to the different realms as "karmic vision".
Regarding continuity across lifetimes, what continues? The subtle mindstream is an answer I've heard in the past. If so, what is that?
By karmic vision I mean the idea that ones "realm" of birth (or rebirth) need not be seen as a physical location. The karmic vision of an individual can determine their state of being, for instance someone like Paris Hilton could be said to have a somewhat god-like karmic vision, with extraordinary wealth and leisure but at the same time little or no interest in the exhaustion of suffering because it is far removed from her karmic vision (this is just an example, I'm sure she suffers like the rest of us). The same can be said for the other realms. I feel this is a useful way of talking about it because we can actually see the suffering described in the teachings but it also doesnt deny the possibility of other realms in the physical sense.
I'm not a fan of the "subtle mindstream" idea. I dont think a mind streams.
I think that its more universal and natural than that. Karma and rebirth are relative phenomena, causes and conditions are gross manifestations of the underlying nature of reality, like waves being none other than motion on water, to use a common metaphor. On the ultimate level I think our nature is birthless and deathless, and that nature takes concrete form in the world of conditioned existence through a process that is described in the teachings on the twelve links of dependent origination. The teachings are symbols pointing the way to reality. We get in trouble when we take them at face value or dismiss them out of skepticism and doubt.
I think the teachings point to the ultimate truth, its our job to find it for ourselves.
What we say is "reborn" is our nature itself. The continuity of empty awareness in the universe, not some kind of individual identity, self, or mindstream.
But thats just my opinion.
sorry it took me so long to acknowledge your post. I missed it.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
You have hit the nail on the head. I think Mr. Bachelor has lost the truth of Buddhism and sadly even his faith.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Originally Posted by Dhamma Dhatu
"There is an end to suffering, here, now, today"
I was referring to this statement by Dhamma Dhatu. For me that is truth. You may think otherwise. From reading this book I had the feeling that Mr. Bachelor has forgotten this "truth", maybe he never knew it. In retrospect the book rings hollow for me. One has the feeling that Mr. Bachelor is still seaching and that somehow having faith and devotion is somehow wrong or even childish. In a way it strikes me as nihilistic.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Has anyone else read this book? If so what did you come away with?
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Todd, I do not think otherwise. While I cannot speak for Stephen Batchelor, I believe he covers the above quote in Chapter 12, Embracing Suffering, and Appendix III, Turning the Wheel of Dhamma.
This is what the Buddha said in Turning the Wheel of Dhamma, "As long as my knowledge and vision were not entirely clear about the 12 aspects of these Four Noble Truths, I did not claim to have had a peerless awakening in this world with its humans and celestials, its gods and devils, its ascetics and priests". In this discourse, he described his awakening as the result of having recognized, performed, and completed four tasks.
The first task, fully knowing suffering consists of 3 aspects. Such is dukkha. It can be fully known. It has been fully known. So I would pose this question: how does one perform fully knowing suffering?
In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion it states;
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be was — not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
My understanding from this is that the Buddha's understanding was initially conceptual and therefore was "not pure". Having percieved the noble truth of stress, it's origination, it's cessation, the practice of the Eightfold Path, his comprehension, vision and understanding led to his experiencing of these concepts (not just dry understanding) as being "truely pure". To "perform" suffering for me would be understand suffering and its cessation as the Buddha understood it, practice as it's prescibed and ultimately directly experience "suffering" and it's cessation for yourself;
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'
To mean "performing" suffering is a concept your creating.
To anyone if my understanding is incorrect or missing the mark please show me my errors as I don't want to mislead anyone including myself.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
My references are:
SN 56.11
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1993–2010
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html
I found Batchelor's talk, "Fully Knowing Suffering", helpful.
If I remember right, fully knowing suffering was more of an emotional response, a softening of the heart.
I imagine it to be similar to Siddhartha's motivation when he left home.
"So I would pose this question: how does one perform fully knowing suffering'" in the context that "the understanding of dukkha (stress) is a task to be performed"
So knowing suffering is understanding dukka and this is a task to be performed? You understand these things as dukkha:
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:1 Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful"
As to it as a task to be performed, for me it would still be to understand suffering and its cessation as the Buddha understood it, practice as it's prescibed and ultimately directly experience "suffering" and it's cessation for yourself. This is how I would "perform" this task of understanding dukkha:
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress'... 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended'... 'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' 2 ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed"
My references are:
SN 56.11
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1993–2010
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....011.than.html
This would be my understanding of this. I apologize if I have been unclear or unhelpful, I am still learning. Maybe someone with a greater understanding could better answer this question. All the best to you.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
— AN 4.45
I have been "looking" at Buddhism since 1998. It is only recently as I return to the fundamentals, the bone of the teaching, that I feel like I am actually starting to understand. I feel like my previous efforts just had me lost in the weeds.
You said; "Is it necessary to have read all the suttas before we can proceed with 'fully knowing suffering?"
I would answer no. I am of the opinion that direct experience is far more important than mere comprehension, dry understanding or being a Sutta master. For me the greatest lessons as of late have been experiencing emptyness and compassion. Knowing that I am empty of a fixed permenent self has been helping me not to cling to all things that are also empty, I don't self cherish. This in turn has led to a more open heart for others, as this "self" isn't taking up as much space as before, this leads to greater compassion and identification with others as they are, they are just like me, they suffer as well. For me "fully knowing suffering" would be not having "self" as a concept when we see and experience suffering. It is realzing the causes and cessation of suffering for ourselves and not having the concept of self when taking in another's suffering. For me ultimately it is not a question of suffering or not suffering, these are the totality of my experience, these are equal. They are simply the experiences of this existence.
How would you practice "fully knowing suffering"?
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Todd, the answer to your question is easy...the same way you're doing it. However, as you may well know, doing "fully knowing suffering" is a difficult task. It means having the courage to face one's own, and other's, anxiety/stress. Our culture favors getting rid of anxiety/stress, not letting oneself experience it. We have many forms of distraction to try and rid ourself of dukkha. Moreover, there is the American view of a self: "individuals are the Captains of their own destiny and should be able to solve their problems with force of personal will" i.e., Control. To me, doing the task means to "go against the stream". And we need to have developed mindfulness and concentration to know when we're not "fully knowing suffering" but hanging out in one of our cherished stories instead.
Another important thing to keep in mind about the 12 insights of The Four Noble Truths is that they are "conditioned arising". As you probably know, "conditioned arising" (dependent origination) is what the Buddha "awakened" to under the Bodhi Tree. Each one of the 12 insights conditions the next so none can be left unaccomplished if one wants to do The Four Noble Truths.
I am happy to hear you have been experiencing what I have been experiencing for it is truly priceless. It took me a long time to understand a paradox that being with dukkha could mean being free of dukkha and it does open the heart. It's a day to day task.
May all beings be free from anxiety and stress.
acariya
first of all 'how would you 'know'?
with the help of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind
try to grasp how would you know with eye etc.
it would lead you to 'know suffering'
It's good to speak with you and share these ideas. May your path be fruitfull and bountiful in the dhamma:)
All the best,
Todd