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Tibetan Buddhism Question
if Buddhism is an atheistic relgion why are there gods and godessess incorporated into Tibetan Buddhism? And are they rally deities or just metaphrical icons that they can relate to? For example my avatar is Tara the godess of comapssion which is sort of like Jesus. Is she a godess or just a metaphor?
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Comments
Palzang
Let me also add that it is easy to reject and criticize without knowing anything at all about what you are rejecting and criticizing. I would highly recommend that you at least take the trouble to look into a subject and learn all you can about it, and preferably do the practices, before you reject it out of hand because from what I've seen, people on this board often reject things out of hand without examining them. That leads to the kind of ignorance demonstrated by the Kansas State School Board in allowing creation "science" into the classrooms in lieu of real science. Just a word of advice from someone who's been around the block quite a few times.
Palzang
Palzang
It is one of the wonders, to me, that the Tibetan deities are such powerful visual images, compassionate, protective and enlightening. I doubt whether we (European/USian) have such skillful cultural myths. Ours tend to be militaristic, paternalistic and authoritarian: King Arthur, Zorro, Frederick Barbarossa, Yhwh. Even the Western bodhisattva of compassion, Jesus of Nazareth, is transformed into a judge rather than the man who wept over Jerusalem.
For me, at my infant like stage of knowledge, I choose to focus on Guatama, his life and teachings as my source of direction. The tantric aspects of some schools of Buddhism strike me as distracting and somewhat unsettling to be honest. I personally embrace those things which for me keep it as simple as possible. My home shrine consists of a 13" Shakyamuni statue, a simple pair of matching clear-glass incense & votive candle holders and three simple clear glass bowls for offerings placed upon a burgundy altar covering (table runner). I use a set of mala beads for meditation practice and thats about it.
Perhaps at a later time I will better understand the role that these other aspects of Budhism play but for now, for me...it's Gautama, his teachings and putting them into daily practice.
Simon: USian?! :crazy:
Palzang
I think that you are wise. There was a great, English philospher, William of Occam (c.1285-1349) who wrote: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. Loosely translated, it means "Don't complicate things unless you have to", which is a pretty good rule of life.
In the Shakyamuni's own life and teaching, there is progression, movement, development. Part of the wonder of samsara is the sense of such movement: travel towards a goal. I'm sure that there are those, much more awake than I, who understand that there is no journey in reality but, for me, thre is great joy in discovering the unfolding landscapes of my 'pilgrimage'.
Nevertheless, for most of the time, I have to stick to what is simplest, to what I know. And, most of the time, that is very little. A spiritual lfe is like any other, it contains elements of craft, of skill. And these are learned. No point in trying to play a sport for one's country if one has never practised the sport or only seen it on TV.
Having attended a White Tara Initiation, I can say that the 'guided visualisation' is a thing of high craft, art even. As a storyteller and therapist, I have practised visualisation as a therapeutic tool and have never encountered anything of such complexity and sheer beauty in any Western manual. The aspects of mind addressed by the words went far beyond those that I could understand.
In discussing the whole question of Tibetan deities, I have needed to ditch all my post-Enlightenment scepticism - and I mean the 18th century Enlightenment on which our present secularity rests. I have had to stretch a mind I thought was "open", and have had to admit (all thanks to the Wishfulfilling Jewel) that there are vast swathes of understand that I do not have!
Having come from a tradition that will not bow down to wood or stone, nor take anything on someone else's say-so, I have had to shake even those categories!
I use the term USian for my brother and sister who are citizens of the USA. I know it's clunky but, having Canadian relations by marriage, and friends elsewhere on the continent, particularly among First People, I make a distinction for the sake of clarity.
Good point about having to reevaluate old biases, Simon. If you're not willing to do that, you're not going to make any progress on the path no matter which flavor of Buddhism you choose. Change is the operative word here, and if you're not willing to do that, then you're just wasting your time. As Funkadelic says, "Free your mind and your ass will follow!"
Palzang
I have to admit my knowledge is poor with regard to Buddhism but again with what little I have picked up I cannot recalled Buddha mentioning Shudgen.
I seems that this is a localised belief that has spread to the west without question.
Please don't think I have a problem with Tibetan Buddhism as I respect and embrace the concept of compassion but to be honest I find the Deity thing a bit far fetched.
Again I must point out that Buddha as far as I'm aware never mentioned Deities.
So perhaps the Buddhist/Tibetan deities and Devas could be viewed in the same light.... They're "middle Management" and as such, are 'responsible' for our (Buddhists) day to day Illumination, Care, Support and Guidance.....
Just my rambling angle....;) !!
Ooops, sorry....is that's what's known as 'my bad'...?
"Before you start treating me, Doctor, tell me, who was it that shot me? Was he of warrior class or some other class? Was he tall or was he short? Was he young or was he old? Was he dark skinned or light skinned?"
The doctor ignored the questions and removed the arrow. Had he taken the time to answer the questions, the patient would have died.
Palzang I am of the opinion that these beliefs are just folk traditions that have little credible connection with ordinary Buddhist beliefs.
I am have admit to be totally entertained by your website link its like Tibet monks meets Cesars Palace. And that hair?
I can think of many times when it was "folk memory" that has led us, as archaeologists, to sites previously unknown and, in medical science, to development of medecines from plant extracts. I am sure that you can think of other 'uses'.
And, what do you mean by "ordinary" Buddhist beliefs? Are these the beliefs of the majority of Buddhists, throughout the world, or do you mean the minimalist, reductionist Buddhism of Western new tradition? I find myself wondering whether your apparent annoyance at externals is not a reaction to ritualistic Christianity, rather than at Buddhist mythologies.
Palzang, as a monk in the Tibetan tradition, may hold beliefs that are alien to some of us. Scan the rest of us and you will find many and varied traditions. One of the strengths of this e-sangha is its tolerance of diversity. I have never found that hairstyle or waist measurement or skin colour mattered, nor do I think that gratuitous personal remarks strengthen argument. But, perhaps I have misunderstood your last comment and misread your attitude. If so, please accept my apologies.
There are many people out there who would be keen to engaged with Buddhists if it wasn't for the the Fablous Furry Freaks or Califorication that seem the dominate the wests take western buddhists. I not asking you to drop clause 4 here.
It needs and imagine overhaul. It needs to dust of the cobwebs and clean itself up. Especially when it come to people proclaiming to be monks by this order or that order the whole thing look less respectable than most boxing titles.
And Dieties are part of that too, they seem to be just ghosts of the past that present a hurdle to big for may to jump as they search for own their buddha nature.
Finally Simon please don't to entrap my statements with issues of race as I believe you don't believe I am that person for one minute.
Even Bob Dyan went electric and remember what a fuss that caused.
Buddhism will not become "westernised" world-wide, nor, I suggest, would this be a good thing. Look at what has happened to Christianity. I am constantly amazed by how little so many 'low church' adherents know about the vast and diverse traditions of their faith. The baby has been chucked out with the bath water.
I find the slash movie The Passion of the Christ or the cartoon Miracle Worker far more offensive in their perversion of the complexity of the Jesus message than a few good jokes or Golden Child nonsense.
At least the distortions and ignorance about Buddhism are not yet fuelling violence. The same could not be said about the lies being spread about Islam.
That is the problem with religion, we all believe we are right.
So world continues to war.......
On the other hand " together united the workers will never be defeated".
Hmmmm..... Says he's Agnostic, but still 'thanks God'......
You throwing us a bit of a purler there, HH.....? :scratch:
I agree though, about the Compassion. Can't bottle it & sell it, but everyone has free, ready and easy access.....
Tibetan Buddhism is unique in that allows us to access an extremely ancient knowledge that has all but disappeared from the earth, a wisdom that reaches back to times when such knowledge led to some of humanity's most magnificent creations, such as the pyramids produced by the dusty old Egyptians which even today remain beyond our powers to recreate. So maybe instead of dissing these crusty old deities out of hand, it would be worth your time to look into it further. Just a thought...
Palzang
“All conditioned things are impermanent.
They are phenomena, subject to birth and death.
When birth and death no longer are,
The complete silencing is joy.” –Buddha
Do the “Conditioned things” the Buddha refer to include our conceptions as well? In my limited knowledge of things I fail to see how the use of tools for our practice or the worship of deities can be a distraction as long as we consider the two truths. All things (by things I mean everything, absolute and relative) are part of the stream. I feel that the distinction we place on these “things” that can assist or hinder us from being truly awake.
Mike
I guest it is comparible to pagan rituals being incorporated into christianity. I appreciation that they have had at times a very important role in the way the churchs communicated to folk and the success of Chistianity.
I think Simon mentioned earlier that this effect has similary shaped Tibetan Buddhism and allowed it to flourish in Tibet.
I find it incredible that today in Tibet, Nepal, India etc these cultures look to the advancements of the west with envy. Not simply because of the material gain but in the cultural advances we have made in our civilisation.
Today in the West no one really believes that pagan gods have an impact on the world we live in unless you are a pagan. Certainly Christians don't pray to pagan gods but still allow their celebrations as a part of the Chistian calender.
With respect Deities might do it for you but how is it realising Buddha's wish to help every man and woman find their own Buddha nature. There is little or no evidence that Buddha spoke clearly about these many deities. He certainly refused the idea of a world full of Gods.
His rejection of a world full of gods enfrancised the lower castes, thus allowing the spread of Buddhism across the India subcontinent. Not only did it provide a very practical hope but it was empowering.
Forget the exotic , let strip it back for a moment and concentrate on buddha nature. Once you make that your focus, hearts and mind can be won.
What I can except is Buddha nature is in us all as I can except that what christians call God is no external force but instead can exist in all of us when given the green light.
Surely what we must all be searching for is the devise that sets of the green light for all not exotic blue deities.
Palzang
I love this sanha!
Mike
Certainly, a Buddhist is considered to be outside the traditional Hindu caste system, which is why it has had great appeal to the harijans. It has also, in the new Western approach, engendered a new engagement and solidarity with the marginalised and with the environment - although the Tibetans in exile in Dharamshala plant gardens and pick up litter, whereas many of the Indians don't appear to give a damn.
But Buddhism is more than just a social message. As ven. Palzang has said, Tantra addresses other areas of human consciousness. It could be compared with (although, imho, it goes far beyond) depth psychology and psychotherapy. The aim of the psychotheraputic movement, from Freud onwards, has been the health of all humans, but is carried out one-to-one or in small groups. Of course, we can read the works of the great pioneers, Freud, Jung, Assagiloi and others, but it is only within the therapeutic relationship that the transformation occurs.
The word "wisdom" has come, somehow, to be seen as an elitist concept or something not worth pursuing. I submit that this is foolishly shortsighted. We ignore the depths at our peril. But, because the study of tantra is among the advanced practices, we will already have moved through earlier stages and have worked as well as studied for the betterment of all beings.
You appear to suggest that the deity concept (which you have told us you do not understand and which is still very mysterious to me) militates against social action. I cannot understand how you work that one out.
Off course I'm interested. Just enough to ask questions and look for counter arguement. It's called debate. You seem to be unconfortable about this?
"It's not really necessary that you feel in the "right", you know. If it works for some people and leads them to liberation, who are you to interfere with that"?
Palzang.
Liberation is a big word and means many things. For me it's empower and ability to control ones own life. It means something real.
My opinion might not carry much weight, but I believe that granting respect to any belief or traditoin is important. At times we all make mistakes, I am certainly one who has placed his foot in his mouth more than once, but we should still make the effort to try and be understanding.
While I do not practice Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism I can appreciate it for what it offers. Whether or not we agree with everything taught in the Vajrayana schools of Buddhism (or vice versa in the Theravada, or other Mahayana schools), we should still look upon them with compassion and respect. It seems like folly to me to harbor any sort of ill-will towards others who choose to walk along the same Noble Eightfold Path.
Asking questions and debating certain points of Dhamma is quite acceptable, but perhaps the tone of such questions and debates should be offered with the same compassion and respect that we would want offered to us.
Just some thoughts.
Jason
The World of Tibetan Buddhism by H. H. the Dalai Lama (Wisdom Publications, Boston. 1995)
The ultimate point of practice is to liberate our mindstreams.
Everything else is skillful means that leads us to this point.
Palzang
Isn't questioning one of the lessons Buddha taught?
The statement made to HH of:
doesn't really answer anything.
What science are we talking about here? None that I can think of. What psychology? None that I can think of.
Saying this is like saying "just because people don't understand the meaning of shaking a stick into a dark hole doesn't invalidate it's power or purpose!"
Of course it doesn't. We're only doing the actions. Tibetan monks are only meditating - what happens because of this, as far as I can tell, is really outside of their control.
For example, deviously minded Western scientists have be able to document the change in brain activity in Buddhist monks doing (I believe) compassion meditation. Or maybe it really doesn't matter what kind of meditation it was.
But, is one of the mysteries of Buddhism? Or just a by-product of meditation? And if this is something that Buddhists have known all along, why are they waving this fact around like a banner now? Is this the science of deep psychology that Buddhists have known about for centuries but just found out about it in the 21st century?
I think HH might be asking some hard questions and possibly not using his US Daily Allowance of Vitamin T.A.C. and T - but I think he's just asking questions trying to figure out how something works for some people.
And who knows - maybe Palzang could show him the light and Herman could turn out to be
SuperBuddhist!
-bf
This was the post I had lost - so I don't even know if I got everything in here that I had originally written, re-read, laughed out loud about, showed to my friends and family, printed off to hang above my desk at work and ... wept over like a beautiful child.
I had made a point about how being questioned over a certain belief of Buddhist could cause someone to possibly get upset - and how that might be an attachment to a label - but I think I had done it a little more tactfully in my first attempt...
The same is true with the deities of Vajrayana Buddhism. When you open your mind to the possibility, the possibilities are unlimited. When you close your mind to the possibility that deity practice can accomplish anything, then of course it will not. But it is possible for us scientific Westerners to access this other reality. I know because I was trained as a scientist and for a long time thought of logic and scientific method as the only ways to go to find truth. I have since discovered that I was wrong and that indeed those methods only can take you so far. They are excellent techniques for understanding relative, dualistic reality, but they are completely useless when trying to understand nondual enlightened reality. For that we need a new paradigm, one outside of ordinary view. So that's the value of deity practice because it can be used to access levels of reality beyond what our samsaric senses can ever access. I have seen things with my own eyes that are completely inexplicable using Western reason and logic, yet see them I have. They were neither hallucinations nor delusions, but a different level of reality.
So you can discount deities or not, up to you, but the technology is there, and the choice is yours.
Palzang
Christianity has vast swathes of mystical literature which tends to be sidelined or completely ignored by too many people. It leaves Christianity crippled and the results are there for all to see.
Fortunately, this does not apply throughout the churches. Mystical prayer continues to be taught and, in the UK, the growth of the Spiritual Direction movement is interesting in this context. The work of Evelyn Underhill has been re-discovered and treasured.
I would also point out that it is only a short time ago that Saint John of the Cross had a valued place on student bookshelves.
I think "this" is a valid response. You make some great points, Palzang.
See? I knew you could do it? I knew you had it in ya. You just needed a little goading from Bad Karma Boy to get you tippy-typing away for us!
-bf
Pal(BK)zang
What I am talking about is the mystical experience.
Palzang