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A couple of questions from a noob
Zania
Explorer
Hullo everyone. Im new here and I have a couple of questions.
Ive always had some interest in self awareness and healing etc but I recently started becoming more interested in Buddhism and Ive started meditating daily and reading about the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path. Today I went for the first time to a class organised by Mahasiddha Buddhist centre in Sydney Australia which is where I am from. They hold regular meditation classes and retreats all over sydney.
The teacher was talking about self cherishing and how it is the cause of suffering. He said that we must love others and not love our self and that loving the self is delusion. I have to say I was quite taken aback by this concept as it seems to fly in the face of every new age book I have ever read which all seem to teach that we must love and nurture the self before we can love others. That we cannot give that which we do not have etc. I mentioned this to the teacher and he agreed that this love of the self is not what Buddhism teaches and that this will cause suffering because it is self cherishing?? Im actually really confused by this and Im hoping that I have just misunderstood the concept. Can anyone perhaps elaborate a bit on this for me.
He also talked about how the stuff we accumulate and the experiences we have dont bring happiness. That we end up creating more suffering by endlessly wanting more things and more experiences etc.
This concept I understand more than the first because we all know that feeling when you achieve your goal or attain that which you desire and pleasure very soon wears off and we then want something else. However what I dont understand is then what are we to do? Do we look at the stuff and the experiences as transient things that bring temporary pleasure and nothing more? If so do we then still seek out these things? I cant visualise a future in which people no longer want experiences or things. Isnt education an experience that brings great things to the world? Sure it may not make me happy permanently but I still desire it. Is that wrong? Sorry if my questions seem naive but Im very curious about this. Thank you.
Ive always had some interest in self awareness and healing etc but I recently started becoming more interested in Buddhism and Ive started meditating daily and reading about the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path. Today I went for the first time to a class organised by Mahasiddha Buddhist centre in Sydney Australia which is where I am from. They hold regular meditation classes and retreats all over sydney.
The teacher was talking about self cherishing and how it is the cause of suffering. He said that we must love others and not love our self and that loving the self is delusion. I have to say I was quite taken aback by this concept as it seems to fly in the face of every new age book I have ever read which all seem to teach that we must love and nurture the self before we can love others. That we cannot give that which we do not have etc. I mentioned this to the teacher and he agreed that this love of the self is not what Buddhism teaches and that this will cause suffering because it is self cherishing?? Im actually really confused by this and Im hoping that I have just misunderstood the concept. Can anyone perhaps elaborate a bit on this for me.
He also talked about how the stuff we accumulate and the experiences we have dont bring happiness. That we end up creating more suffering by endlessly wanting more things and more experiences etc.
This concept I understand more than the first because we all know that feeling when you achieve your goal or attain that which you desire and pleasure very soon wears off and we then want something else. However what I dont understand is then what are we to do? Do we look at the stuff and the experiences as transient things that bring temporary pleasure and nothing more? If so do we then still seek out these things? I cant visualise a future in which people no longer want experiences or things. Isnt education an experience that brings great things to the world? Sure it may not make me happy permanently but I still desire it. Is that wrong? Sorry if my questions seem naive but Im very curious about this. Thank you.
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Comments
So we love ourselves but then I have some friends who make a big project out of feeling love for themselves. Its like a craving they have. Thats not what we wish to cultivate but rather we make friends with whatever feelings come up. We don't have to replace our self doubt and even loathing with a rosy shiny love instead we make friends with all our shitty feelings and that is how we love ourselves.
As far as the craving for experience he is right. First we must learn about the nature of ego. Otherwise we will read about special meditative experiences and crave them. Which takes us away from the present moment of our heart/awareness.
Meditation practice is essential to practice in this way. Because it makes us sit on the dot and see what comes up in our minds. See the self love or self hate whichever comes up. And see the spacious nature of all thought including these passing images. We learn that we are not our passing thoughts, but rather that we are the vast space that these images are coming up in. Each thought is like a gateway to a whole world that blooms but we are able to let go of (after welcoming/appreciating/honoring) each world as it passes away.
When these self-help books encourage loving and nurturing the self, they are talking on a psychological, emotive personal level.
Cherishing the self and holding it as permanent (in Buddhism) however, speaks of a self as an entity, an existence made up of so many component parts... the features, the organs, the body, the whole person you are.
The whole person you are will one day grow old, grow sick, wither and die.
This is what you must perceive as a 'reality' and accept that you must let go of this notion of a permanent 'self' and understand that to cling to it, desire its perpetuity and nourish it as something precious, is illusory.
By all means be as healthy as you can, psychologically - but understand that as far as being a Buddhist is concerned - this too, shall ALL pass.
Cherish, want , desire, need, cling to and take whatever it is you want.
However, be prepared to eventually let it all go, with the same intensity.
It's not wanting all those lovely things that is wrong, in any way.
It's refusing to let them go, and attaching unnecessary vital importance to them, that does the damage.
Whatever - or whoever - they may be.
Hope this helps.
it is quite common for people who are not content with themselves to cling to a partner as a means to fulfill that which they feel they lack. they will find, however, that nobody else can fill that void for them. they will suffocate out of fear that their partner will leave them. they will be jealous due to their own insecurities. they will have trouble being a pleasant person to be around due to their depression. this will most likely end up being a self fulfilling prophecy with the end result being that they are left alone again.
i think when you examine what the result of "not loving yourself" is, you will find that these are not symptoms likely to be caused by buddhist practice. perhaps, buddhism offers a slightly different perspective, but definitely a positive result.
There is no doubt that you can't love others without first loving yourself. I think it's really about being kind to others. Which starts by being kind to yourself. This is clear in Buddhism.
Im not sure what you (Federica) mean when you say-
"The whole person you are will one day grow old, grow sick, wither and die.
This is what you must perceive as a 'reality' and accept that you must let go of this notion of a permanent 'self' and understand that to cling to it, desire its perpetuity and nourish it as something precious, is illusory"
Isnt this obvious? Of course we all will die. Who clings to a reality of a permanent self? Isnt everyone aware that we are not permanent? I dont think I know of anyone who isnt aware of this apart from very young children. So Im not really clear about what there is to let go of? I know I will die one day, doesnt this mean I am not clinging to a delusion of permanent self? While I am here on this earth and in this body that is my reality, I know it wont last forever but its what is real for me now.
With regards to rebirth- I presume that everything that makes up me in this life will be gone. So what exactly is it that is reborn? If I spend my whole life following the path of Buddhism for example and I learn many things and become enlightened then will this too be gone?? So what is it that carries on and what is the point of learning all this if its wiped out?
Everyone knows it's true, but yet when we age we still resent it and wish to be young, when someone dies we wish them to be alive, when something of ours breaks, we wish to have it back, etc. In this sense we are constantly clinging to the illusion of a permanent self. We are attached to things as self and as our possessions, and wish to deny the reality of impermanence. This is the core message of Buddhism, the truth of our suffering.
BUT - There are two things in life that are certain. The first is death comes too us all, and the second is that the time of death is unknown.
This means that even though we might accept (as you say) "I will die one day" we don't think that our death might happen within the next ten minutes. But the possibility is there. Each day, many people wake up and think they have their "whole life" ahead of them, but wont live to see the sunset.
So even though you accept you will die eventually in the future, do you also accept that you might die today? And if you die today, are you willing to let go of your life peacefully and accept the death that you know has been coming from the moment you drew your very first breath?
Much love
Allan
Do not rush into the practice, take it a step at a time. Start with a basic (conceptual) understanding of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path and then study teachings the Buddha gave to lay folk, like the Kalamas. Gradually, move on to other subjects (suttas).
They who? According to buddhism there are no "they" who created you. You are they result of some preveous causes that meet the right conditions to "ripe". Everything is created by causes and conditions, and without help from any "they", "him" or "her" (for that sake)
But we are not immortal. We can spend all our time thinking about all the things in the world which isn't the way we want it but that wouldn't really benefit anyone, not your self or any other around you.
Life is as life is - Buddhist practice is to accept the unsatisfactory nature and take it from there, instead of just being "pissed" that the world isn't the way we want it
Much love
Allan
Buddhism teaches us that we actually are aware of this, but because of our karmic delusions we fail to see our true awakened nature.
It is complicated because you're trying to find answers to questions that are far beyond being "simple." You're asking questions that deal with the very nature of reality and human understanding. We seek answers from the world, in books, from teachers, from experienced masters, and from our own ideas and we each strive to understand things in our own way.
The Buddha taught that we should not simply be content to find answers and blindly follow them, but to experience them as truths for ourselves. Otherwise the answers have no meaning.
What if it that was true? How then could we be sure that the universe was as permanent as our immortal forms? I don't think we'd necessarily be better off if this was the case.
I guess that depends on your frame of mind. Life can seem like a sick joke, a hellish torment, or a wonderful paradise depending on how you look at it.
What is the you that will die someday?
Honestly....this may sound weird or odd to some people...so bear with me and I apologize if I am not clear in how I see it as...maybe someone else can shed more light on it if they believe this also...
I believe it is this way..because WE made it this way OURSELVES.
Meaning....I bet there was a point in time...when it was simple....when it was uncomplicated..however...due to evolution of the mind...evolution of technology and creation of material items...the BASIC foundation upon which were "created, born, evolved...etc" whatever it is you believe...has been so MUCKED up and buried so far into us generation after generation...it's been lost.
We as humans beings are responsible for this I believe from generation to generation.
To look at is very very simply...
My kids....will NEVER know life without a cell phone....(barring any severe disasters)
Sure...we can tell them about it...but what they are learning is coming from us in our own view...
So the generations that passed as materials...money...different religions...all that BASIC foundation was lost and our minds evolved...transformed ...whatever you want to call it...and it was lost....
Now...to present day.....we are trying to re-capture that knowledge...and we are getting it from word of mouth...from other peoples views...etc....
Did any of that make ANY sense....it all comes together in my own mind....but I have a real hard time putting it out there.
In a Mahayana perspective there is encouragement to hold the well being of others in great regard, and from experience I can tell you caring about other people can be liberating. The problem is that people wanna get to this point by the wrong means (i.e., by claiming they don't exist).
The Buddha wanted to get enlightened. Saying desire is not part of the path or of human life is an absurd. In fact, when Buddha talks about Right Effort he explicitly refers to it as arising wholesome desires. What causes suffering, generally speaking, is ignorance that leads to craving. If a human being doesn't want anything he will just stand there and die.
Your questions are not naive at all. They are incredibly important points that sometimes get completely neglected. You are wise beyond your knowledge.
Your questions are very typical for newbies. Buddhism flies in the face of all the cultural “wisdom” and “truths” we have picked up from all around us, including psychologists, New Age, educational experts, etc. Perhaps the best way to deal with the questions is to let them sit unanswered, for now. Do the practice as it is being taught to you. Question. Observe. Don't force answers. After a while, you will start to have inner promptings that will answer your questions one way or another ... understanding will slowly dawn on you. As my teacher says, “little bit by little bit.”
And this, in itself, is the heart of Buddhist practice. Do not rush after instant intellectual understanding of concepts that you have never before considered, or that run in the face of all you thought you understood. Do not chase after the comfort of “ground under your feet”, of holding the answers in your hand. Do not avoid the discomfort that confusion and questions without answers bring. It is the very act of trying to force comfort (physical, emotional and yes, intellectual) and the very act of trying to avoid discomfort that lies at the root of our suffering. In the patience of our practice, we come to see that it is “allright” to be uncomfortable, and that discomfort is not a problem that needs to be “fixed”.
I did want to address this issue of "loving ourself". This is one most-popular Western concept. It pretty much boils down to building up one's self-esteem and engaging in feel-good exercises. But it sort of sweeps all the shame and nasties under the carpet. Refusing to look at those parts of ourselves we don't accept is not really loving our self. As we do our Buddhist practice, and start to become aware of ALL of us, we start to develop compassion for how our attachments and aversion push us around. THIS is the precursor for feeling compassion for others, which in turn is the precursor for feeling kinship with all.