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The good ol' koans

NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
edited October 2010 in Meditation
I have something to complain about these koans. Why, or, how am I able to solve them if I can't use logic ? I mean, all the advice on koans resume to 'not to use logic' stuff. How can this be possible ? How can I find an answer if I don't , or I am not 'allowed' to think about that answer ?

Comments

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Finding an answer is not the point. They are instruments for producing a certain relationship to experience, not ontological inquiries.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Why, or, how am I able to solve them if I can't use logic ?

    Good question!
    How can I find an answer if I don't , or I am not 'allowed' to think about that answer ?

    There is really no "not allowed" in Koan practice. Everything is allowed. Try using logic and see what happens.

    However, proper Koan practice requires a teacher to give you a koan appropriate to your level of understanding, to receive your answers and tell you if you are correct or not.
  • edited September 2010
    what is the koan your working with? You definately need a teacher to work on koans.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    The one with the tree falling in the woods. The answer I got during one session of meditation was : " A dead nature." ( as I remember, the koan sounded like : If a tree falls in the woods and no one is nearby, who will hear it ?) . Anyway, if those koans require a guidance,I 'll have to wait until I 'get' one.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    That question is essentially the same as the one I hold in my practice, "What is experiencing this?" My practice is described by my teacher in this podcast (part of this series), and he goes into some detail about how to relate to the question around 48 minutes 40 seconds in. Note that he's coming from the Tibetan tradition, though, so it's known as a "pointing-out" question, rather than a "koan."
  • edited September 2010
    ( as I remember, the koan sounded like : If a tree falls in the woods and no one is nearby, who will hear it ?) . Anyway, if those koans require a guidance,I 'll have to wait until I 'get' one.
    I didn't know that was a koan. Thats funny.:lol:
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I thought is was: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

    I've tried that one and what is the sound of one hand clapping.

    I had some interesting experiences.
  • edited September 2010
    if a solitary buddha goes poop in the woods, are there any sentient beings around to step in it?
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    if a solitary buddha goes poop in the woods, are there any sentient beings around to step in it?

    Now, let's make some maths about this :lol: !!

    Well, who gives a sh%t about this one?
  • edited September 2010
    Koans are cool, but I rarely ever meditate on them. I'm new to meditation, so I'm saving koans for when I become more advanced. I do like the 'one-hand clapping' one, though.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    shanyin wrote: »
    I thought is was: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

    I've tried that one and what is the sound of one hand clapping.

    I had some interesting experiences.

    Yeah, Yeah, that's the one :D ! What kind of experiences did you have(sorry if this question seems rude) ??
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    That's a koan? Anyone got a citation?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, Yeah, that's the one :D ! What kind of experiences did you have(sorry if this question seems rude) ??

    The same experience that a logger has when they cut down a tree and it falls.
    That's a koan? Anyone got a citation?

    I would assume so as as it was asked of me in an interview once (as well as the hand clapping one), but it's not found in the traditional principal collections like the Blue Cliff Record, Gateless Gate etc. It technically may not be an "official" one, but it is used as one by some teachers.

    The one I'm currently working on now is this one. Feel free to offer suggestions as I have been stuck on it for quite a while! :D It's a slight variation on the Mumonkan - Kyogen Mounts the Tree koan

    You are hanging in a tree by your teeth
    Your arms are bound and your legs are bound, you can't touch the tree.
    A man with a gun appears under the tree and asks
    Why did Bodidharma come to China?
    If you don't answer, he will shoot you and you will die.
    If you open your mouth to answer, you will fall from the tree and die.
    How do you stay alive?




  • edited September 2010
    you take a shat on the man holding the gun thereby clogging up his pistol cannon and spooping all over his eyes
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »

    You are hanging in a tree by your teeth
    Your arms are bound and your legs are bound, you can't touch the tree.
    A man with a gun appears under the tree and asks
    Why did Bodidharma come to China?
    If you don't answer, he will shoot you and you will die.
    If you open your mouth to answer, you will fall from the tree and die.
    How do you stay alive?




    Body language ??

    Or , let's say I don't answer him, but I have to find a way to get down the safely...Or, should I make the guy shoot me, balance myself so that the bullet hits the rope, freeing my arms and then try to climb the tree to its top ?

    Or simply I answer : Mmmm, mmm mmmm!
  • edited September 2010
    the koan i've been working with is this:

    A student asked Master Yun-Men, "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Without hesitation, the master answered, "Mount Sumeru!" Why did the master answer, "Mount Sumeru!"?

    good luck with that one.
  • edited September 2010
    the koan i've been working with is this:

    A student asked Master Yun-Men, "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Without hesitation, the master answered, "Mount Sumeru!" Why did the master answer, "Mount Sumeru!"?

    good luck with that one.

    Having never done koan practice I have no idea what kind of answer is even being looked for. What first popped into my head is that Mount Sumeru is irrelevant as an answer which points to the irrelevance of sin. Sort of like answering 'What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?'

    I am sure I am wrong, but that's just what popped into my head.
  • edited September 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    Having never done koan practice I have no idea what kind of answer is even being looked for. What first popped into my head is that Mount Sumeru is irrelevant as an answer which points to the irrelevance of sin. Sort of like answering 'What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?'

    I am sure I am wrong, but that's just what popped into my head.
    i couldnt tell you if your wrong or right....
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Body language ??

    Or , let's say I don't answer him, but I have to find a way to get down the safely...Or, should I make the guy shoot me, balance myself so that the bullet hits the rope, freeing my arms and then try to climb the tree to its top ?

    Or simply I answer : Mmmm, mmm mmmm!

    It's definitely a non-verbal answer because you are not allowed to open your mouth, literally. So any response that would involve words or talking is wrong. My teacher, as well as the other teachers, always gives the same hint. "You must 100% become one with the man in the tree!" Which does not really help, lol.
    you take a shat on the man holding the gun thereby clogging up his pistol cannon and spooping all over his eyes

    Very creative haha! But how to you tell that to the teacher without opening your mouth?!?!
    the koan i've been working with is this:

    A student asked Master Yun-Men, "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Without hesitation, the master answered, "Mount Sumeru!" Why did the master answer, "Mount Sumeru!"?

    good luck with that one.

    It seems to me that this is the kind of Koan that any answer will do but only if you understand the answer first. So the particular answer is not important but the clear delivery of the answer is what is important. A good teacher can intuitively tell if you understand it or not, regardless of what answer you give.

    If you understand the answer, I think you could correctly respond by saying "I have to take a shit!" or "You have a bald head!" or some other nonsense like that. Some require a very specific answer, this is not one of those I don' think. But then again, I could be wrong. :)
  • ShutokuShutoku Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I'm not rinzai at all, but the tree one really isn't much of a koan as it definitely has a logical answer.

    Sound requires something generating sound waves, a medium for sound waves to travel through (air), and ear of some sort, and a brain to comprehend and interpret "sound". If any one of these is missing there is no sound. Sound it not a "thing", but a phenomenon that manifests only under certain conditions.

    If a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears connected to consciousness, it does not make a sound.
    Similarly if a star goes supernova and explodes... despite what we've seen in movies, it will not make the slightest peep in space. No air = no medium for soundwaves to form or travel through.

    I do really like the one "show me your original face before your parents were born" though. That one stops all conceptual thought in it's tracks for me.:cool:

    That said, I would never attempt koan study without a teacher. I really think it is a necessity in this case.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I'm not rinzai at all, but the tree one really isn't much of a koan as it definitely has a logical answer.

    One could say it has a logical answer, but is the logical answer the correct answer? Impossible to know without asking a teacher, IMO.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    My teacher, as well as the other teachers, always gives the same hint. "You must 100% become one with the man in the tree!" Which does not really help, lol.
    Seems like very helpful advice, actually. It's very useful to learn to rest in the experience of knowing that you're going to die no matter which way you turn.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Seems like very helpful advice, actually. It's very useful to learn to rest in the experience of knowing that you're going to die no matter which way you turn.

    That's what I thought...
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, it's always good to take a rest after you take a shit, particularly a constipated one...
  • ShutokuShutoku Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    One could say it has a logical answer, but is the logical answer the correct answer? Impossible to know without asking a teacher, IMO.
    It is the correct answer if the question is taken at face value.
    But I fully agree...koan work needs a teacher.


    so says the Shin Buddhist...:rolleyes::o Like I would know :lol:
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Seems like very helpful advice, actually. It's very useful to learn to rest in the experience of knowing that you're going to die no matter which way you turn.

    Agreed. However, If you die in this situation then you don't get to go on to the next Koan. :(
    Shutoku wrote: »
    It is the correct answer if the question is taken at face value.
    But I fully agree...koan work needs a teacher.


    so says the Shin Buddhist...:rolleyes::o Like I would know :lol:

    I tried a bunch of logical answers for that one, NONE of them worked. :lol:
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I think it points to the predicament that to express anything we have to use more conceptual language. Which could potentially entrap beings further in samsaric rigid thinking.

    It is the same predicament. If we remain silent our needs are not met and we are not expressing our natural sensitivity. But because of the natural presumptiveness and ego habits anything we say could be misunderstood and lead to further grasping at karma?

    Its the same predicament as during the interview. If you say anything to the master it is just words. But if you say nothing that doesn't do either.

    I don't think my answer would satisfy the koan either as it is just words too. Obviously there is nothing you can do when your arms and legs are bound and you are held to the tree by your mouth. Just get ready to be shot! Feel the dukkha fully and relax. Hope for rebirth in a land with shorter trees haha :P
  • edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    It seems to me that this is the kind of Koan that any answer will do but only if you understand the answer first. So the particular answer is not important but the clear delivery of the answer is what is important. A good teacher can intuitively tell if you understand it or not, regardless of what answer you give.

    If you understand the answer, I think you could correctly respond by saying "I have to take a shit!" or "You have a bald head!" or some other nonsense like that. Some require a very specific answer, this is not one of those I don' think. But then again, I could be wrong. :)

    This is very cool to me. Can you elaborate? How can I 'understand' the fact that he has a bald head anymore than looking at it and saying "You have a bald head!"??? I always kinda thought, when I was giving my answers, my teacher was looking for something like that. -Man, I just leaned back in my chair and busted out in laughter, I think I finally got it. Thanks alot Seeker242.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    This is very cool to me. Can you elaborate? How can I 'understand' the fact that he has a bald head anymore than looking at it and saying "You have a bald head!"??? I always kinda thought, when I was giving my answers, my teacher was looking for something like that. -Man, I just leaned back in my chair and busted out in laughter, I think I finally got it. Thanks alot Seeker242.

    Cool! As far as your questions goes, if you understand why he said Mount Sumeru!, then you already know the answer.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    Agreed. However, If you die in this situation then you don't get to go on to the next Koan.
    It's just a scenario, albeit one with a character with whom you aspire to completely identify.
  • edited September 2010
    you've never met zen master death skull
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    You are hanging in a tree by your teeth
    Your arms are bound and your legs are bound, you can't touch the tree.
    A man with a gun appears under the tree and asks
    Why did Bodidharma come to China?
    If you don't answer, he will shoot you and you will die.
    If you open your mouth to answer, you will fall from the tree and die.
    How do you stay alive?
    Screw staying alive, let go of the branch and land on the son of a *****. If you're gonna die anyway, might as well take him with you. ;)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    you've never met zen master death skull
    Alas, poor Yorrick...
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    I though about koans today, and the thing that matters is not the answer, it's the conclusion of the problem...I don't know, this thought came while spending time in the old center of Bucharest ( today was somewhat Bucharest's day- it's actually on the 20th of September)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Not sure what you mean by "conclusion of the problem", but it sounds as though it's missing the mark.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Well, I can't express the answer in English :(. I don't know how to say it.

    P.S.:Well, today I thought that my mind got a little lazy, and if this is a thread about koans, are there any people who could give me one koan to 'digest' ? :o Please ?
  • edited September 2010
    what did your face look like, before your mother and father were born?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Well, I can't express the answer in English :(. I don't know how to say it.

    P.S.:Well, today I thought that my mind got a little lazy, and if this is a thread about koans, are there any people who could give me one koan to 'digest' ? :o Please ?


    How do you treat gypsies with kindness? :lol:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Bwahaha
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    How do you treat gypsies with kindness? :lol:

    I treat many of them, at least those who are moderate and know how to speak correctly.
  • edited September 2010
    you give them back the horse they stole from you
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, the one that is still missing from my stables :lol::lol:.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited October 2010
    what did your face look like, before your mother and father were born?

    My face looked like everything and nothing at the same time. It looked like the vast space, that has no form...so this is the answer I stumbled upon during meditation.

    So, do you have another one tha tI should start 'chewing' ?? Please :) !!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    It is best to find your own question. One that really resonates with you in particular. Particular koans do have answers but you need a teacher to verify your answers. If you come up with an answer that you think is the right answer, without a teacher to ask, you can really never know if that is the right answer and you could easily trick yourself into thinking you have the right answer when you are not even close.

    Without a teacher, it is best to find your own question. One that leaves you completely perplexed and dumbfounded. A question whose only answer can be "I don't know". And to simply contemplate it, but not necessarily to find an answer. The really big, intense questions are unanswerable with mere thoughts or words because they are just too big. If it can be answered by just thinking about it, then it is not a very good question. For example: what is this thing we call life? What is this thing that I see when I look in the mirror? What is a human being? What is this phenomenon we call the universe? What is this that I see and what is this that I'm seeing with? What is seeing? What is this phenomenon of seeing, hearing, thinking etc.

    A good question that I like to use is "What is this?" With "this" referring to all of the above and everything else that exists, all a once, packed into this one question. What is this?! Contemplating such a big question sincerely, makes your mind go completely silent, which is the purpose of this type of practice.

    Particular koans on the other hand do have specific answers, but if you don't have a teacher to check your answers, you will never be able to know if you got it right or not.
  • HondenHonden Dallas, TX Veteran
    edited October 2010
    It was my understanding that koans were given to those in training to focus their mind on concentration. If one finds difficulty in clearing the mind, they're given one of these puzzles with no answer.

    The example I've heard used was an egg that was trapped inside of a glass bottle, one must remove the egg without breaking the bottle or cracking the egg. A zen master gave this koan to one of his students who quickly became frustrated with it. He had meditated for days on the answer only to find it was still impossible, the zen master simply remarked that through the use of the koan the monk had cleared his mind of everything else.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2010
    melt the glass bottle. technically its not broken. tee hee
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Soap the bottle's neck, or pour down vinegar on the egg ( troll chemistry :lol:) and it should work.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    edited October 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    1.It is best to find your own question. One that really resonates with you in particular.
    2.Without a teacher, it is best to find your own question. One that leaves you completely perplexed and dumbfounded.

    1. I can't find them. These days, nothing seems to resonate with me.
    2. Yeah, I found one, one that during a meditation session scared me and made me stop that session. :)
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