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Becoming conscious would bring suffering along the way?
Hi Everyone,
Because of all the unconscious patterns we inherited from our infancy and childhood (and possibly from other lives or from what is labeled as the collective unconscious), becoming fully conscious as Buddhism challenges us to be could be an uneasy task... The well-known psychiatrist C.G. Jung once wrote: "There is no birth of consciousness without a pain".
Do you think that following the Buddhism teaching brings along pain during the process? If not, then how Buddhism succeeds in suppressing unwholesome patterns from our unconscious mind where psychoanalysis often fails? - or at least does it in a quite violent fashion (called catharsis) the same way as some one would vomit and feels better afterward: you would agree that vomiting is neither a pleasant nor a smooth way... -
Because of all the unconscious patterns we inherited from our infancy and childhood (and possibly from other lives or from what is labeled as the collective unconscious), becoming fully conscious as Buddhism challenges us to be could be an uneasy task... The well-known psychiatrist C.G. Jung once wrote: "There is no birth of consciousness without a pain".
Do you think that following the Buddhism teaching brings along pain during the process? If not, then how Buddhism succeeds in suppressing unwholesome patterns from our unconscious mind where psychoanalysis often fails? - or at least does it in a quite violent fashion (called catharsis) the same way as some one would vomit and feels better afterward: you would agree that vomiting is neither a pleasant nor a smooth way... -
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Comments
Conditioning from our childhood we don't really think twice at that age, but when we buddhists meditate, It's safe to assume that pretty much every buddhist gets their past dredged up, and yes suffering too. But isn't that what meditation is for? to identify the suffering to let it go.
I'd rather it all come to surface and deal with it, let it go and overcome it. Rather than ignore it's there. Or even know it might be there but not attempt to bring it up.
D
I think it might be a circular thing. You wake up just a tiny bit and some things occur to you. Then you might be motivated to work (sit!) towards a more full consciousness. Or you might decide, "thanks, that's plenty" and stop.
For me, pain has been a great motivator and small doses of increased consciousness have been the balm to pain, rather than a source of pain.
The degree of suffering is directly proportional to the degree of trying to avoid the suffering. Suffering is inevitable ... this is the First Noble Truth.
I used to be a Certified Natural Childbirth Educator, and one of the first rules for dealing with (physical) pain is to stop trying to run from it, stop trying to "fix" it. These efforts actually increase the perception of pain. It is the same way with psychological pain.
Inside us there is a rock ... an observant, very still, very silent rock. Watch pain from that vantage, let it flow over you as a stream flows over the rock in the streambed. This is how you give in, how you yield, how you birth both babies and freedom.
Jung got it slightly wrong (or was mistranslated.) It should be "There is no birth of consciousness without the experience of pain." The pain is always there; the unconsciousness evolves as a way to avoid experiencing it.
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Not trying to deny, reason away, avoid or change the actual pain I find is helped by the words of great thinkers such as Plato, who wrote " The heart has its own reasons that the mind cannot comprehend " ...[/FONT]
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I indeed read that accepting pain, and not fleeing from it, was a condition to follow the Path of Buddhism. Now I doubt that any human beings -even Buddha- could have been freed from the pain during the end of his/her lifetime - as it was written in the thread: That is the 1st Noble Truth: the Dukkha is always present. -
Maybe Buddhism is rather a way to make peace with pain, isn't it? Or do I have to understand through the 4th Noble Truth that pain/suffering can be eradicated?
Now, my main point is that sometime when you want to go to the root cause of one of your unwholesome behavior (e.g. being jealous, becoming angry for petty reasons), it might well trigger painful memories that are stored in the bottom of your unconsciousness. I like also the quotation "[SIZE=-1]The heart has its own reasons that the mind cannot comprehend": as human beings not only we cannot control what comes from 'outside', but also we cannot always control what comes up to our mind from 'inside' and we will never be able to do so, that's our human being destiny, we can just learn to cope with it...[/SIZE]
Why do I think so?
Because there 's no way for men to escape their nature... At the time of Buddha, people were thinking the Earth was the center of the universe and that humans were special beings.
Now we know that it's not the case, we are merely animals as we share with all living beings DNA and evolution and finally a large part of our brain activity is totally out of our control...
This view is why Psychoanalysis fails were Buddhism succeeds. The goal (of pain cessation) is not the goal of Buddhism. As the Dalai lama says "Pain is inevitable, Suffering is optional" which leads to the conclusion that pain and suffering are not the same things, as they are often thought to be. But this is a mistake because it is possible to experience pain without experiencing suffering. The suffering comes from the desire to get away from pain, not the pain itself. The key point here is that pain and suffering are not the same things.
There are probably a hundred different translations for that word. It is difficult to say what it is really because it is such an expansive word that really does not have an accurate english translation. In this context, I would say it is the uncomfortable or disturbed state of mind that is normally brought about by experiencing a painful event or situation. According to Buddhism, that disturbed state of mind need not arise in connection with that experience. But even that is not good enough description because of the below, which I copied from here.
???
Are you sure about that?
Whatever is in our consciousness unless it is mirror bright awareness is not us. It is only a skanda and we need not fear it. But we might at first.
Thank you for keeping the discussion ongoing...
I do not believe very strongly in psychoanalysis, Freud would for instance tell that what Nature Lover did when he wrote 'to cause personal suffering' very likely instead of 'to cease personal suffering' is a lapsus calamini (a typo) that can tell a lot about the unconscious part of the brain of its author, but Freud himself was thinking that the future of psychiatry lain in the use of proper medication.
Anyway, I believe more that painkillers would help our body to deal with the pain efficiently: if I get my hand cut I trust more in morphine than in meditation. If someone gets depressed or become schizophrenic - what psychiatrists assume to be in strong link with genetics (family history) - antidepressant and anti-psychotic have been scientifically proven to be efficient. Do we have scientific studies proving that Buddhism help?
It's even possible today to do a MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imagery) of the brain to visualize the brain activity: did science prove that the activity in the brain of an enlightened Buddhist is different than the one of a non Buddhist when inflicted the same amount of physical pain or shown with horrible pictures? This very same test can be conducted efficiently to prove that the brain activity is different between someone who took a painkiller such as morphine and another person who did not take anything...
A second point I would like to make is that I am very willing to learn more about Buddhism, I've already read several books about it, but I am somehow turned off by the ambiguity of the words used... Furthermore the polysemy (several meanings) of these words - meanings which are likely to have been introduced centuries after Buddha died- helps the Buddhist adepts to twist the theories in all the ways that suit their purpose. Muslims use the same trick when telling that only one who understands Arabic can really grasp the deep meaning of their sacred texts...
Following the Buddhism teachings will not bring along pain during the process. The only 'pain' one will get is to try and tame the 'monkey' mind which is a tedious process. Once the foundations have been made and progress started it will bring joy, happiness and freedom.
When one's mind is still even the most unpleasant memory or stimuli will not arouse it to agitation. Meditation(Right Meditation), when done correctly can even reduce suffering coming from the five senses by detaching the mind(itself) from them and become itself without any external supports.:)
I don't know about Buddhism itself but there have been many studies on meditation and it has been shown to be quite helpful in many situations. Some therapists consider the practice to be a good complimentary addition to already existing treatment methods and not necessarily a replacement therapy.
http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136620&postcount=9
There have been studies on that too. Most of the studies focus not on Buddhists but on the practice of meditation, but there are some that compared Buddhist monks to average people. However, because scientific inquiry is generally "skeptical inquiry" many believe that more studies are needed to come to firm conclusions that can really hold up to rigorous scientific scrutiny.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/13890
IMO, the ambiguity is not necessarily a trick but rather simply a function of the inadequacies of language itself to convey the concepts. For example: How do you explain what love is to someone who has never felt love before? Is it even possible? No matter what you say about it, it always comes short of the actual experience.