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Smoking

edited October 2010 in Buddhism Basics
I smoke, and my guess is that this is an attachment, yes?

I've smoked for many years, and every time I've quit, even for months, I've been unable to control my emotions. It was as if terrible stuff was coming to the surface, stuff that my smoking kept stuffed. :D

It's only been a short time that I've been practicing controlling minor emotional downs by remember in that they are ephemeral, by viewing that dispassionately and by using mindfulness.

Now that I've had a little practice, I thinking of trying to quit again and employing what I've learned. Any advice?

Comments

  • edited October 2010
    Valium :).
  • edited October 2010
    Valium :).
    Cool. :cool: I could trade one attachment for another.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Honestly?

    Whittle down how much you smoke, week by week. Say you smoke half a pack a day... Each week you would take one or two cigarettes out of the equation.

    Coupled with meditation and mindful practice, you should quit just fine :)

    Know that I'm rooting for you!
  • edited October 2010
    If you're a smoker, smoke. If you don't, don't.

    You could work on limiting the amount you smoke.

    I smoke. I quit several times. I enjoy it. It's not going anywhere. There's a beauty to it. So I work on my dicipline. Not too much make me appreciate it more. Like a fine piece of chocolate. You don't eat chocolate as a meal... you just take a bite here and there.

    I know Buddhist teachers who smoke and drink. It's your life.
  • pineblossompineblossom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I smoke, and my guess is that this is an attachment, yes?

    I've smoked for many years, and every time I've quit, even for months, I've been unable to control my emotions. It was as if terrible stuff was coming to the surface, stuff that my smoking kept stuffed. :D

    It's only been a short time that I've been practicing controlling minor emotional downs by remember in that they are ephemeral, by viewing that dispassionately and by using mindfulness.

    Now that I've had a little practice, I thinking of trying to quit again and employing what I've learned. Any advice?

    I have a few attachments.

    Eating, sleeping and breathing - to name but three.

    The point with renunciation is, 'What is it you are renouncing'?
  • edited October 2010
    Hi Nature lover

    It's great that you have been gaining skills in the practice of mindfulness and now intend to give up smoking. Good for you:)

    When we are attached our mind exaggerates the benefits and diminishes the disadvantages. Perhaps through mindfulness you could investigate the benefits and disadvantages of smoking and see the habit more clearly. In particular does this habit stop you from being present with people? Can you listen and empathise with someone if your addiction is calling? How does it affect your meditation practice? Do you enjoy every cigarette as much as you anticipate? Do you sometimes have one too soon after the other before you body has been able to restock the chemicals for you to get another hit? Do you sometimes finish a cigarette and not remember it? If you enjoy it how long does the enjoyment last how do you feel after that?

    How do people who dont smoke deal with their emotions? Do all people that dont smoke have less trouble with emotions. Is it better to keep emotions stuffed down or do they squish out the sides now and then anyway?

    It may be good to look into combining lovingkindness meditation to try and combat the minds tendency to be very harshly judge ourselves when we become more mindful of what we are doing.

    When trying to withdraw pay mindful attention to the problems, be a curious observer. Then when someone is going through it you will be able to have true compassion for them.
    "True compassion does not come from wanting to help out those less fortunate that ourselves but from realizing our kinship with all beings."
    Pema Chödrön, Start where you are.
  • edited October 2010
    I grew up right next to a Korean Buddhist temple where some monks lived. Pretty often I would see monks out for a walk and a cigarette. If there are monks that smoke, it can't be too awful in terms of karma.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I smoke; it's tough to give it up. I personally think the key to stopping smoking is practising acceptance; accepting that you're going to feel anxious, restless, irritable, and discontented, and then accepting those feelings when they arise.

    And if I can't accept those feelings, I'll smoke, which is what I do!

    At present, throughout the day I'll - when I remember - I'll practise some mindfulness and investigate how I feel and then try to get comfortable and just accept the way I feel. I'm a little anxious right now, for example, so I'm putting my focus into where that anxious feeling is in my guts.

    I feel a little less anxious now!

    I think the trick is not to try and distract yourself from these feelings, but to embrace them.

    I'll practise this for a few weeks and then try stopping smoking again; and I'm hoping when those withdrawal pangs kick in (about ten minutes after my last smoke), I'll be to accept them for what they are, and not smoke again.

    I'll let you know how I get on! :D
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I smoke, and my guess is that this is an attachment, yes?

    I've smoked for many years, and every time I've quit, even for months, I've been unable to control my emotions. It was as if terrible stuff was coming to the surface, stuff that my smoking kept stuffed. :D

    It's only been a short time that I've been practicing controlling minor emotional downs by remember in that they are ephemeral, by viewing that dispassionately and by using mindfulness.

    Now that I've had a little practice, I thinking of trying to quit again and employing what I've learned. Any advice?

    Remember the Preciousness of this human life and that creating the causes for it to end quicker will do you a huge disservice.
  • edited October 2010
    I have a few attachments.

    Eating, sleeping and breathing - to name but three.

    The point with renunciation is, 'What is it you are renouncing'?
    Great question! The point of renunciation seems to me to be renouncing that which is, in this case, an addiction. It seems to me that as long as I'm addicted to cigarettes I can never be completely free.
  • edited October 2010
    Tosh wrote: »
    I smoke; it's tough to give it up. I personally think the key to stopping smoking is practising acceptance; accepting that you're going to feel anxious, restless, irritable, and discontented, and then accepting those feelings when they arise.

    And if I can't accept those feelings, I'll smoke, which is what I do!

    At present, throughout the day I'll - when I remember - I'll practise some mindfulness and investigate how I feel and then try to get comfortable and just accept the way I feel. I'm a little anxious right now, for example, so I'm putting my focus into where that anxious feeling is in my guts.

    I feel a little less anxious now!

    I think the trick is not to try and distract yourself from these feelings, but to embrace them.

    I'll practise this for a few weeks and then try stopping smoking again; and I'm hoping when those withdrawal pangs kick in (about ten minutes after my last smoke), I'll be to accept them for what they are, and not smoke again.

    I'll let you know how I get on! :D
    I'd appreciate that.

    I tend to be impulsive some times. I'm very new to Buddhism and all excited about it. I feel as if I've found a treasure. I think I need to wait to quit if I want to use Buddhist methods. I'm afraid that if I can't get them to work due to inexperience, I'll get discouraged about Buddhism too.
  • edited October 2010
    Really wrote: »
    Hi Nature lover

    It's great that you have been gaining skills in the practice of mindfulness and now intend to give up smoking. Good for you:)

    When we are attached our mind exaggerates the benefits and diminishes the disadvantages. Perhaps through mindfulness you could investigate the benefits and disadvantages of smoking and see the habit more clearly. In particular does this habit stop you from being present with people?
    Yes
    Can you listen and empathise with someone if your addiction is calling?
    Definitely no.
    How does it affect your meditation practice?
    Don't know.
    Do you enjoy every cigarette as much as you anticipate?
    No
    Do you sometimes have one too soon after the other before you body has been able to restock the chemicals for you to get another hit?
    Yes
    Do you sometimes finish a cigarette and not remember it?
    Yes
    If you enjoy it how long does the enjoyment last how do you feel after that?

    How do people who dont smoke deal with their emotions? Do all people that dont smoke have less trouble with emotions. Is it better to keep emotions stuffed down or do they squish out the sides now and then anyway?
    Yes
    It may be good to look into combining lovingkindness meditation to try and combat the minds tendency to be very harshly judge ourselves when we become more mindful of what we are doing.

    When trying to withdraw pay mindful attention to the problems, be a curious observer. Then when someone is going through it you will be able to have true compassion for them.
    "True compassion does not come from wanting to help out those less fortunate that ourselves but from realizing our kinship with all beings."
    Pema Chödrön, Start where you are.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I'd appreciate that.

    I tend to be impulsive some times. I'm very new to Buddhism and all excited about it. I feel as if I've found a treasure. I think I need to wait to quit if I want to use Buddhist methods. I'm afraid that if I can't get them to work due to inexperience, I'll get discouraged about Buddhism too.

    I'm new to Buddhism too! Please don't think I'm anything other than someone whose dabbled in it for a little over a year; and since my method hasn't worked for me yet, it's opinion, rather than experience.
  • edited October 2010
    Tosh wrote: »
    I'm new to Buddhism too! Please don't think I'm anything other than someone whose dabbled in it for a little over a year; and since my method hasn't worked for me yet, it's opinion, rather than experience.
    Thanks for being so open.:)
  • edited October 2010
    Zayl wrote: »
    Honestly?

    Whittle down how much you smoke, week by week. Say you smoke half a pack a day... Each week you would take one or two cigarettes out of the equation.

    Coupled with meditation and mindful practice, you should quit just fine :)

    Know that I'm rooting for you!

    As a former smoker, I am here to advocate for cold turkey rather than the "cut down till you quit approach". Nicotine is a drug that is addictive because of it's withdrawal effects. It is short lived in your brain and you need to smoke again shortly after your last one to relieve the withdrawal effects. When addicted, smoking is less about having another drag because it makes you feel so good than it is about having another drag so you don't feel crummy. It takes 10 days for nicotine to completely leave your system. Until it is all out of your system your brain is going to want to return to optimal levels. Cutting down simply increases the amount of time that you are going to feel crummy as your brain wants more nicotine than you are giving. By just bucking up and getting through withdrawal as quickly as possible seems to be the most effective in the long run. Mindfulness helps greatly. First three days are tough, but it gets better after that.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I quit smoking after 30 years of a-pack-a-day smoking (we have 25 cigs to a pack here in Canada). This is how I did it:
    - Went on a 3-day drive with a friend ... took no cigs. That took care of the hardest part of quitting ... the first few days.
    - Drank water every time I wanted a cigarette ... used a pop-top bottle so I could suck the water ... a good substitute plus it helped clear out the toxins
    - Every time I wanted a cigarette, I'd firmly state "I don't do that anymore"
    - And I remembered Pema Chodron's teachings that just because you are feeling an uncomfortable emotion, doesn't mean you have to "fix it".

    And I remembered a story a friend had told me. He'd been addicted to heroin, and every time he'd tried to quit the withdrawal symptoms had been so bad he'd had to go out and get a fix. So he had a friend drop him off several hours north into the Canadian bush, in May, with 3 months of supplies and instructions to come get him in 3 months. Talk about cold turkey. Anyway, he didn't have a single withdrawal symptom.
    ...... it is quite possible that our emotional withdrawal symptoms are attempts to "blackmail" ourselves into getting a cigarette. Although I had tried to quit several times before, and had always found the emotional withdrawal quite awful, this time I didn't have a single emotional withdrawal symptom. However, I did discover that there was an underlying residue of anger that my smoking had covered over ... this just sort of took care of itself with a little time. Don't mean to gloss over it, but it was very low-key, and I just observed it without doing anything about it and it died out on it's own in a month or so.

    Anyway, good luck to you. I hope something I said will be useful to you.
  • pineblossompineblossom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    It seems to me that as long as I'm addicted to cigarettes I can never be completely free.

    Then it seems the answers lies in your hands.
  • edited October 2010
    Our Dharma center's grounds-keeper decided to quit smoking (which he was not allowed to do on the property anyway). During his withdrawal he manifested raging anger for weeks--he tried our patience and was almost dismissed. When the worst passed, he told me that not a day goes by that he doesn't desire a cigarette, but that he'll never smoke again because he never wants to go though the withdrawal process again.
    The esoteric Buddhist traditions teach that smoking and the use of other narcotics are harmful not only to the physical body but to the spiritual body as well. In fact, the use of such substances will block the opening of the central channel causing one to be reborn in the lowest realms.
    I wish perseverance to anyone trying to free themselves from tobacco, one of the world's most addictive substances. Once you achieve this freedom, may you more fully appreciate the wondrous scents and tastes in your daily life.
  • edited October 2010
    Smoking is a violation of one of the five precepts that forbids the intake of intoxication.
    Smoking is harmful and it will cause the smoker to accrue bad karma and reap retribution and if it is serious it might even cause the smoker to go to hell.
    It is better to face the side-effects of quitting smoking then to suffer a shorter life or retribution( which is much worse).
    If quiting is hard why not try some nicotine strips which helps :)
  • LostieLostie Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Wah ... you are only being sacarstic right? So eating french fries is also forbidden, given its potential health hazards? :rolleyes:

    I once read a meditation book saying smoking is one way to practise your breathing routine in meditation.

    When you smoke, smoke. When you don't wanna smoke, don't smoke. :)
    exonesion wrote: »
    Smoking is a violation of one of the five precepts that forbids the intake of intoxication.
    Smoking is harmful and it will cause the smoker to accrue bad karma and reap retribution and if it is serious it might even cause the smoker to go to hell.
    It is better to face the side-effects of quitting smoking then to suffer a shorter life or retribution( which is much worse).
    If quiting is hard why not try some nicotine strips which helps :)
  • edited October 2010
    I've tried quitting twice. I managed to stay clean for 3 months each time.

    I think it's important to be mindful of the pattern that prevents you from sticking to non-smoking. For me, I noticed that it was always a social gathering of some sort where I also drank more than usual and it triggered the want for a cigarette.

    I currently do smoke, but I'm hoping next time I do quit it will be forever. I second going "cold turkey" btw. The self-righteousness of it is quite empowering.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    Smoking is a violation of one of the five precepts that forbids the intake of intoxication.
    Smoking is harmful and it will cause the smoker to accrue bad karma and reap retribution and if it is serious it might even cause the smoker to go to hell.
    It is better to face the side-effects of quitting smoking then to suffer a shorter life or retribution( which is much worse).
    If quiting is hard why not try some nicotine strips which helps :)

    Nicotine an intoxicant? WRONG! By this categorization caffeine and any anti-depressant drug would also be thus, not to mention comfort foods, ice on a hot day or a warm bath on a freezing one.

    Therefore the idea that by itself smoking will accrue bad karma is wrong. Everything we do relates to everything else and is therefore karma.

    Smoking now causing Retribution or going to Hell? Wrong-minded again. Better to smoke now than hereafter, as the saying goes. The consequences to the smooth muscles of our blood vessels and our cardio-pulmonary systems are not retribution, just consequences.

    The trick is (as a reformed smoker, I know this!) if you are being pressured from the outside to quit, it will not work. Simply stated, the forces work against any possible real progress, because someone or something will upset you, and off you go!. You have to have the earnest desire within yourself.

    Over a period of years, I found I had lost the taste for smoking (Did I ever truly enjoy more than a couple hundred puffs in my life anyway?) and just laid them down, to make a long story short. Nowadays, I can pick up a cigarette and smoke, but the filters nauseate me. No way I could ever finish a whole filtered cigarette again. I know better than to try a plain-end in troublous times, plus they're harder to find.

    The post I quoted above really troubles me. It is thinking like this that leads people to despair. All are headed to salvation eventually.
  • beingbeing Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Smoking is very hazardous for your health. Isn't this enough of a reason to quit?
    For me at least knowing that something is bad for me (and others) is the best inspiration to stop doing/using it.
  • edited October 2010
    I think the precept that talks about intoxication was only placed there to ensure we don't indulge in anything that might cloud our clarity of mind to an extreme extent.

    I mean, otherwise even green tea could be considered an intoxicant. Anything we eat really - every single thing as an effect on how we behave and on what goes inside our body and brains.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited October 2010
    If the average person had the faintest clue how *truly* bad smoking is for your body, they would be so disgusted by it that they'd become a rabid anti-smoking activist. The problem is, the media don't understand it, so it's not passed on in anything like the kind of scary detail it should be.

    Buddhist or not, attachment or not, precepts or not, smoking is THE single worst thing you can legally do to your body. If we banned tobacco tomorrow, the health care crisis in the US would be all but over (well, we'd still have to work on obesity). But it would be greatly reduced anyway.

    Please stop for the sake of your body. It's awful stuff. But... on the bright side, it's job security for me! :)
  • edited October 2010
    Nirvana wrote: »
    Nicotine an intoxicant? WRONG! By this categorization caffeine and any anti-depressant drug would also be thus, not to mention comfort foods, ice on a hot day or a warm bath on a freezing one..
    To many smoking is harmful and that's it.:)
    If you think precepts aren't broken when you smoke it's ok. But ultimately smoking will cause your health to deteoriate and shorten your life span.
    Therefore the idea that by itself smoking will accrue bad karma is wrong. Everything we do relates to everything else and is therefore karma.

    Smoking now causing Retribution or going to Hell? Wrong-minded again. Better to smoke now than hereafter, as the saying goes. The consequences to the smooth muscles of our blood vessels and our cardio-pulmonary systems are not retribution, just consequences.
    Retribution is tied with Karma and Karma is the Universal Law of Cause and Effect.
    What you're saying seems to contradict but I may be wrong.

    Taking smoking as an example:
    Cause --> Smoking
    Effect/Consequences/Retribution
    --> Economic, Social, Karmically, Health.

    Economic: To be blunt, smoking to a non-smoker seems like trying to pay money just to get yourself killed faster and shortening your lifespan.

    Socially: You will find yourself in contact with bad friends or false friends and not kalyannamittas.

    Health: It's obvious.

    Karmically: It is an complicated issue. Even if an Arahant tells us that Heaven, Hell, and Karma exist we will only at best believe 99% of what he said. Our doubts will truly be allayed when we get to see them ourselves.
    The Law of Karma applies to everyone regardless of what they think of them.

    The post I quoted above really troubles me. It is thinking like this that leads people to despair. All are headed to salvation eventually

    I'll ask you a question in turn. What is the purpose of human life ? And why are we born ?

    Are we born to smoke and waste our life away ?
    Are we born, suffering from birth, illness, old age and death just to smoke and enjoy life ?


    We're born for a higher purpose but some might not be the case. (I will not elaborate here).

    We're born to eradicate worries, defilement and the three poisons (greed,ignorance and hatred) that are deeply rooted in our mind.

    We're born to cultivate merit making our life easier in the persuit of perfections.

    We're born to cultivate and pursue parami which characterizes our speech, actions and thoughts until they're fulfilled as according to the quota of parami needed for enlightenment.
    We're born also to eradicate bad habits and negate the demerits by creating more merits.


    I'll ask those questions I've typed above to myself whenever I'm doing something I think it is wrong and I'll act accordingly.



    It seems that my previous post was somewhat offensive to readers of this forum. I hereby apologize to those who have been affected. I still hope you've read my words above :)



    Good day to all :D
  • edited October 2010
    One word:

    Acupuncture.

    Worked like a charm for me.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Sorry I broke the continuity of this thread by responding to someone bringing subject matter from another thread. This is especially bothersome to me, as the reason I initially posted on this thread was that I felt a victim of the tobacco industry was being further victimized by an adherent of the religion industry.


    Why people start smoking has little or nothing to do with the taking in of intoxicants, and is more psychologically based in most cultures today. I can remember spending a couple dollars a pack more for nicely packaged Canadian or French cigarettes in my day. It was all image and glamour and all that. Then the time you spend in happy moments of camaraderie smoking becomes an institution in your life, and suddenly smoking itself becomes your most intimate friend.

    Why should we not have compassion for someone in this predicament? To speak of hellfire seems so incongruous and just plain wrong.

    The best way I know out of this is for others to leave you alone and let you yourself fill yourself with the (TRUE) propaganda that the smell of cigarette smoke on you is offensive to others, etc., etc.

    Another thing that always helped me quit was cold weather (I quit several times before I hung cigarettes up for good.). Stepping outside and sucking in cold, fresh air through pursed lips is a big improvement over the cigarette. Ooh, so nice, and such a superior sensation —and a rather healthy experience, too.

    But even if you never succeed at quitting, it's better to burn (cigarettes) now than burn hereafter. There is a time for everything. When it's time for you to quit my prayer for you, dear lover of nature, is that conditions in your life will be very auspicious.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    exonesion, please don't take my reaction as representative of others on this forum. That would be a mistake.

    In my initial response to something directed my way, I'll just address what I take to be the fundamental question you raised above:
    Why are we here, to what purpose and what end?

    But your words were:
      I'll ask you a question in turn. What is the purpose of human life ? And why are we born?
      Are we born to smoke and waste our life away?
      Are we born, suffering from birth, illness, old age and death just to smoke and enjoy life?
    We're born for a higher purpose but some might not be the case.
    We're born to eradicate worries, defilement and the three poisons of greed, ignorance and hatred...
    We're born to cultivate merit making our life easier in the pursuit of perfections.
    We're born to cultivate and pursue parami which characterizes our speech, actions and thoughts until they're fulfilled...
    We're born also to eradicate bad habits and negate the demerits by creating more merits.

    To begin, dear Exonesion, I must say I largely agree with you, except that I'm not so much into the idea of an individual immortal soul to which merits and demerits accrue (with whatever balances or cancellations they make of each other). Nor do I believe that the Lord Buddha ever taught that we should much attention pay to Metaphysics (Quite the contrary, in fact!). However, I must say that your earnestness leaves me quite in awe of you. Instintively I just love you. Especially when you say:
    I'll ask those questions I've typed above to myself whenever I'm doing something I think it is wrong and I'll act accordingly.

    I believe that the human purpose is to bring joy to other people. If you always keep your focus on that you won't go far wrong, is my view. Sure there are times when competing loyalties tug at us from a few opposing directions, but if we act with our consciences as our watchman and trusted core values as our rudder we can't go far adrift.


    Sorry for the three posts in a row. Don't think I've ever done even two in a row before. Oops!
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    Smoking is harmful and it will cause the smoker to accrue bad karma and reap retribution and if it is serious it might even cause the smoker to go to hell.

    I started smoking at age 13 - out of curiosity and to be part of a gang - and now at age 40 I feel trapped by the addiction. I believe 'intent' has a lot to do with karma; I didn't intend to condemn myself to a hell realm; it just seemed like a fun thing to do when I was 13; I have tried to stop smoking many times and I do actually intend to stop (just not today :crazy:).
    exonesion wrote: »
    Are we born to smoke and waste our life away ?
    Are we born, suffering from birth, illness, old age and death just to smoke and enjoy life ?


    We're born for a higher purpose but some might not be the case. (I will not elaborate here).

    I'm sure it's possible to both smoke and have a higher purpose. I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and my primary purpose is to stay sober (following a spiritual path, which for me seems to include Buddhism) and to help other suffering alcoholics.

    I spend a lot of my time helping other alcoholics to get and stay sober; and if you've ever known an alkie, they're not easy people to work with sometimes; but it's hugely gratifying also; being a part of another man's recovery; to watch someone who was once a wreck turn into a productive and happy member of society.

    I'm taught that my own experience of alcoholism and recovery places me in a great position to help other alcoholics recover; and that's my higher purpose.

    And I still smoke!
    Nirvana wrote: »
    I believe that the human purpose is to bring joy to other people.

    That resonates with me!
  • edited October 2010
    You guys should definately try ECigs. I've been smoking my ecig for about 2 months now and haven't touched tabbaco since.

    I can breathe again, I don't cough, I can smell things again.

    It still delivers the nicotene and feel 80% like you're taking a real toke.

    You can cut down the nicotene gradually until you quit.

    I rather enjoy the buzz though so I won't be quitting nicotene anytime soon.

    Since your not getting any of the tar and carninogens I feel much relieved.

    Do some research before getting your ECig. The ECig forums have tons of information you can read.
  • edited October 2010
    milkmoth wrote: »
    You guys should definately try ECigs. I've been smoking my ecig for about 2 months now and haven't touched tabbaco since.

    I can breathe again, I don't cough, I can smell things again.

    It still delivers the nicotene and feel 80% like you're taking a real toke.

    You can cut down the nicotene gradually until you quit.

    I rather enjoy the buzz though so I won't be quitting nicotene anytime soon.

    Since your not getting any of the tar and carninogens I feel much relieved.

    Do some research before getting your ECig. The ECig forums have tons of information you can read.
    That's a healthier alternative :)
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    It may be healthier in short-term use, but still the nicotine will cause damage to body tissues mentioned above, if used long-term.

    Also, esteemed Exonesion, you surely would not thereby be advocating that people can justify enjoying life with no other purpose, would you? I'm really still very interested in that side of your argument, believe it or not.

    Be well!
  • edited October 2010
    Hi nature lover,

    My aunt was a smoker. She started getting pains in her chest and was dead within 6 weeks of the diagnosis of smoking-related lung cancer.

    I used to smoke myself, then cut down to one cigarette after meals then cut those out. It was really easy - I chewed chewing gum for a while afterwards if I ever felt like having a cigarette and then stopped that too.

    Take a look at some photos of how lungs look after smoking related cancer if you're still not able to quit.


    Kind wishes,

    Dazzle


    .
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    lol, such a terrible thing has happened. The time I got some news referring to my ex my friend has bought some cigarettes as we both bought some weed, (first time in 8 months) The tobacco was for the joints, but the weed has gone now, the cigarettes remain. I have come to smoke like 3 a day due to this troubled mind set. I have ALWAYS been against smoking, but when they are gone I intend to not buy anymore :)
  • edited October 2010
    To Nirvana:
    Nirvana wrote: »
    To begin, dear Exonesion, I must say I largely agree with you, except that I'm not so much into the idea of an individual immortal soul to which merits and demerits accrue (with whatever balances or cancellations they make of each other). Nor do I believe that the Lord Buddha ever taught that we should much attention pay to Metaphysics (Quite the contrary, in fact!). However, I must say that your earnestness leaves me quite in awe of you. Instintively I just love you. Especially when you say:
    I'll ask those questions I've typed above to myself whenever I'm doing something I think it is wrong and I'll act accordingly.
    /
    Thank you for your comments and kind compliments. :)

    To reply your post about the immortal soul you've mentioned earlier.

    First,I was taught when we depart from the human realm we can only bring along our Karma to another plane of existence. However I didn't mention where, how and why Karma is accumulated because that is too abstract and no amount of words can explain this phenomena. Only by comprehending karma through proper Insight(Vipassana) from meditation then will we know what it really is and not just having opinions on how it works. But one thing for sure is that an Immortal Soul doesn't exist.

    I believe that the human purpose is to bring joy to other people. If you always keep your focus on that you won't go far wrong, is my view. Sure there are times when competing loyalties tug at us from a few opposing directions, but if we act with our consciences as our watchman and trusted core values as our rudder we can't go far adrift.
    I completely agree with you that the human purpose is to bring joy to other people. This is one of the many purposes we have, being born as a human into this world. Furthermore,there are many other purposes and goals to discover, many more to realize and fulfill. :)
    I found a quote in this E-book which helps to accentuate the importance of having purposes and goals in life.:
    To live in the knowledge that life has meaning, that progress is being made, that some enduring goal awaits ahead, is man's greatest peace of mind. It endows hardship with a purpose, provides compensation for present inadequacies, makes of life a continuous ascent, and affords to approaching
    age some solace and a measure of content.

    In response to my earlier post I've discovered some words that shouldn't be there especially the part about going to hell for smoking.
    Those words somehow remembered me of the christian belief stating that
    "If you don't belief in god you will go to hell" which is rude and unconvincing. Karma is something which must be experienced first-hand and not by hearsay so whether those beliefs are true we need to see for ourselves.

    We know that smoking is harmful for our health. However we do not really know If smoking will give us retribution or pull us down to hell. We'll have to affirm these for ourselves too :)
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I smoke, and my guess is that this is an attachment, yes?
    Yes. But more than that it is a chemical addiction.
    Now that I've had a little practice, I thinking of trying to quit again and employing what I've learned. Any advice?
    It boils down to willpower, if you don't really want to give up then you won't. If you want to give up then you will. Good luck. :)
    lol, such a terrible thing has happened. The time I got some news referring to my ex my friend has bought some cigarettes as we both bought some weed, (first time in 8 months) The tobacco was for the joints, but the weed has gone now, the cigarettes remain. I have come to smoke like 3 a day due to this troubled mind set. I have ALWAYS been against smoking, but when they are gone I intend to not buy anymore :)
    Sounds like you have an addictive personality, or at least a lack of willpower, it's not uncommon. My best friend has an addictive personality and it ends up destroying most of his relationships, be they with people or other things (food, cigarettes, alcohol). If you can't resolve issues like these on your own, I would suggest getting professional help (which my friend has and it seems to be working.)
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I have always had an addictive personality yes, be it gambling, drug abuse, alcohol, and whatever the hell else you can ass to the list, but never cigarettes, until now! I do not know if this is a direct cause to lack of wil power or a chemical issue in my brain. When I binged ecstasy, I took something like 950 pills over 3 and a half years, something I regret. On moving to thailand however, I have not taken any drug apart from weed once and that is it. I do not drink heavily and have only come to smoke cigarettes very recently.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I would have to go with a lack of will power. If you start blaming your brain for it there isn't much hope. I know for sure that I caused myself some damage during my teen years. Way too many drugs, but the glue sniffing was probably the worst part. For people like us the solution is to just grit your teeth and say no. If you have cigarettes right now, throw them away. Don't smoke another one. Never drink alcohol.-P
  • edited October 2010
    So you just started smoking cigarettes? Oh man...

    You still might have time. Once you're hooked on these things your brain will always crave it no matter if it's 10 years later after you've tried to quit 10 times.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    The thing is, I have smoked cigarettes whilst drunk or when I had no weed in my teen years, they never took hold ever. Before I smoked anything, took any illegal substance, I saw my mother smoking and it made me hate cigarettes. I use to almost feel physically sick to look at ashtrays. My dad use to be a heavy smoker until the new years day of my 1st year alive, he straight up quit. I have always known him to be a fitness freak, he still runs 3 times a week and goes to the gym every other day to this moment in time. I guess some people can just quite and other can't. I only started smoking recently due to anquish and as they were just there. I will throw them away as I have already contemplated this and it is the correct thing to do, thank you :)
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    exonesion wrote: »
    To Nirvana:

    To reply your post about the immortal soul you've mentioned earlier.

    First, I was taught when we depart from the human realm we can only bring along our Karma to another plane of existence. However I didn't mention where, how and why Karma is accumulated because that is too abstract and no amount of words can explain this phenomena. Only by comprehending karma through proper Insight (Vipassana) from meditation then will we know what it really is and not just having opinions on how it works. But one thing for sure is that an Immortal Soul doesn't exist.

    Exonesion, Kind Sir!
    By the words another plane of existence, which I emphasized above, do you mean literally "one other" ("an other")? I mean, in effect, the next plane of existence and only the next? If so, I don't see how doing something evil* for just one lifetime could possibly set one back forever. It would be more like your uninsured house burning down in this life and simply having to borrow a lot from future earnings to pay for a new one, whether better or worse. Still, the lessons learned in your house burning down may very well give you more and more prosperity as further time unfolds. *Note, please, that I am not talking about smoking here, as smoking is not evil —merely unsafe, inconvenient, and often (for the very poor) unhygienic.

    But back to the Buddhist idea of being eventually set loose from the bonds of continual rebirth (samsara), which you touched on: Of course a classic Buddhist cannot believe in an eternal individual soul! Nonetheless, in my view, overattention to the idea of karma over more than one lifetime leaves more or less the same footprints in the sand, as it were. It's the karma we do in this life that matters most. The most uncouth criminal can, by grace, turn round and make a prince of himself.

    There does seem inherent in the Buddhist cosmologies some strong notion of transmigration of powers or attributes across time and across lifespans.

    However, classical Indian thought of Buddha's time, as I am given to understand, was caught up in the idea of samsara being the ground of being upon which even gods fell down to vermin-levels of being over time. Samsara was a great recycling engine that encompassed all and the highest order of enterprise or Being was simply to escape this hellish merry-go-round once and for all.

    Of course, as the Lord Buddha eschewed metaphysics, he may very well have seen most of this as nonsense. However, I think it has generally been shown that most Religious Innovators were also at least in part products of the thinking patterns of their times.

    I'm glad that you thought more about the importance of earnestly discovering things for ourselves rather than just being dismissively dogmatic about the failings of others in which we don't happen to share.

    May you always be happy and lucky! And Free!
  • edited October 2010
    Nirvana wrote: »
    Exonesion, Kind Sir!
    By the words another plane of existence, which I emphasized above, do you mean literally "one other" ("an other")? I mean, in effect, the next plane of existence and only the next? If so, I don't see how doing something evil* for just one lifetime could possibly set one back forever.
    Dear admirable Nirvana,
    It is great to be able to reply to you again :)
    By the words "another plane of existence" it means the person who passed away could be reborn into a totally different plane of existence such as the heavenly realms, animal realm, petas realm(hungry ghost realms) or the hell realm.
    There are many levels of heavens and hells just like the ranks we had in our world( the human realm). Whatever rank or power we held in other plane of existence would completely depend on our karma or more specifically, merits.
    For instance If we are to be born into a the Tavatisma Heaven the abode we have in that plane of existence would be connected to our amount of merits. The more merits we have the shinier our palace would be and vice versa. Those celestial beings who command more merits would have bigger and larger palaces and those beings who have lesser merits could become servants of that celestial being with more merits. That is an simple outlook to the classification of devas in the heavenly realm.

    The person's next destination in Samsara would again depend on his karma.
    If a person did many wrong deeds while he was alive he would surely fall into the realms of suffering. However this is just a brief overview of the effects of karma.
    There are several factors which also play a huge role in deciding his next destination.
    The factors are :
    1. The condition of his karmic fruits (Whether are they ripe for fruition)
    2. The state of his mind before he leaves his physical body.
    3. The amount of merits he had inside him ( This can also play a huge role)
    4. The innate karmic fruits inside the person accumulated for uncountable lifetimes and aeons.

    It is unlikely that committing wrong deeds in one life time would set one back forever because when the retribution have given and effected it's load that person will be reborn somewhere else according to his karma again.
    However for those who committed extremely severe crimes such as patricide/matricide or arahantcide or hurting a fully-enlightened Buddha their demerits are so vast and enormous so much so that it will seemingly take forever for their demerits to be exhausted in hell.


    Nonetheless, in my view, overattention to the idea of karma over more than one lifetime leaves more or less the same footprints in the sand, as it were. It's the karma we do in this life that matters most. The most uncouth criminal can, by grace, turn round and make a prince of himself.
    I largely agree with you that it is the karma we do in this life that matters most. Because the past is already the past, the future is the future. What we have is only the present. Even the most uncouth criminal can turn over a new life. However it seems that that isn't an easy thing to do. Their retribution and karma will lead to commit even more demerits and chances of them repenting is slim. If this is easy, everyone in Samsara would be liberated by now. Nevertheless the person who is suffering must make wishes and resolutions to improve his current state. And he must do his best to accept the retribution and search for the best. Otherwise he will be trapped in Samsara until the moment he decides he had enough of suffering.

    There does seem inherent in the Buddhist cosmologies some strong notion of transmigration of powers or attributes across time and across lifespans.
    Parami and karma are some of the many things which can be inherited and passed down time. Mundane merits can be exhausted if they're not replenished but Parami is something which cannot be exhausted.


    An extract about the consequences of smoking in a Sunday Dhamma talk.
    Addictions to intoxicants or smoking cigarettes or marijuana or using opium, heroin, etc. brings
    disastrous consequences immediately in the current lifetime. These consequences are most apparent directly as physical and mental disabilities which can range from Sclerosis of the
    Liver to Delirium Tremens. Addiction also leads to catastrophic social consequences such as loss of employment, marital separation and divorce, and potentially homelessness.

    Even when families stay together, addictive behavioral tendencies are usually instilled from the parents into the children. All addicts, without exception, are certain to be reborn
    in hell.
    The fifth hell, Mah��roruva, is primarily for alcohol and drug addicts. It’s name means the hell filled with great screams of pain. In one torture, hell beings stand on steel
    lotuses with sharp hot petals and are burned inside out through all nine body openings. In another torture, hell beings are kept in a huge cauldron of molten metal which they must drink,
    and it burns their insides out. The average stay in Mah��roruva Hell is 6,635x1012 earth years. The seventh hell, Mah��t��pana, is also related. It is primarily for those descending the “Road
    to Ruin” (apayamukha) like bar-hopping which often integrates intoxication, sexual excesses and gambling. The average stay here is genuinely cosmic – about half of a sub-eon
    (antarakappa).

    Lord Buddha’s enlightened insight revealed that addicts will eventually be reborn as humans again after paying off their moral debt, but will be insane for many lifetimes and
    then graduate to being mentally retarded. After they eventually develop beyond this, they will still remain forgetful.
    Wholesome behavior, in this regard, is avoiding alcohol and drugs. It results in clear, bright consciousness, right mindfulness, and proper understanding of Dhamma, immediately recognizing good and bad. This is very advantageous. It leads to practicing Dhamma in the right way, doing good, living better, improving mindfulness, and enjoying good physical and mental health. In the future, such exemplary behavior can lead to rebirth in the celestial realms.


    Once again I thank you for your replies and I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment. :)
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Dear admirable exonesion:

    As this thread's topic is smoking and you are not able to establish that tobacco is an intoxicating drug, please start a new thread on the evils of intoxicants if you wish to continue your interesting discussion, or we'll both get into some trifle of a difficulty. I have been called on the carpet, as it were, about overrunning a thread with an extraneous topic that might have caused the originator of the thread to feel we were making light of his or her dilemma or question asked in all earnestness.

    As far as tobacco goes and the evils it can wreak on the body, I personally feel that this matter is each individual's choice. Trying to persuade people that each choice they make is either good or evil (roughly speaking) will only work on people who deep down inside don't like the freedom and excitement of being alive. Those who say that any sane person looking at the lung tissues of a heavy smoker could never contemplate taking another puff are overstating, in my opinion. Driving on the highway is much more dangerous; so, by that kind of logic, no sane person would ever risk a 50-mile trip more than twice a year or so...
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