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You cannot think (reason) your way out of emotions
Lostie
Veteran
What do you guys think of this above statement?
Is that where mindfulness comes in?
Is that where mindfulness comes in?
0
Comments
From experience, emotions lead the thoughts rather than the other way around. Not always though. So yeah, for the most part I agree with the statement and being mindful of the emotions tends to make the thoughts more reasonable.
Given that all is Mind-wrought - how else are you going to do it?
However, other emotional states are ingrained into your neurology to the point where it will take time for the patterns to unravel themselves. Things like depression or anxiety fall into this category. In such cases, it's important to maintain a sense of self-compassion and not make an adversary of your emotions. Making an enemy of your emotions is a form of aversion. Aversion simply complicates the situation by reacting to the initial emotion with more emotion. For example, becoming angry at yourself for experiencing depression, or fearful of your anxiety. Aversion toward our suffering, thus, will only perpetuate the sense that there's something wrong (when, in reality, if you allowed the emotion to be as it is, you would find it will pass away like anything else). (Coincidentally, the authors of the book The Mindful Way through Depression state outright that trying to "think your way out of depression" can often leave you more depressed because it perpetuates the mindsets of self-blame, self-condemnation, and impatience.)
Emotions arise and pass away. In cases of ingrained patterns, such as depression or anxiety, it's possible to unravel the pattern by patiently allowing the individual emotions (sorrow, fear, shame, etc.) move through you, giving yourself some compassion for experiencing such unpleasant mind-states, and then training the mind-body complex (through meditation or counseling) to maintain a nonreactive, equanimous attitude toward them. Gradually, little by little, such patterns will become less regular.
The fact is, while there is some scope for rationality in the way we choose our beliefs and general policies, it is impossible to choose rationally on an ongoing, moment-to-moment basis. The experiences and opportunities of life are too rich for that.
Meditation teaches that it's possible to experience emotional content without acting on it, so that although there's no escape from the emotions, they aren't necessarily running the show, either.
And then, with time, the emotion dissipates and dissolves, and we are no longer "stuck" in it. Much easier said than done of course, but it's one way of letting go of a negative emotion.
This is of course similar to the way Cognitive Behavioral Therapy deals with panic attacks. As long as one is able to recognize and remind oneself that it's a physiological reaction that will pass, and that it may very well be based on negative expectation regarding a certain situation, then this could be thought of as "reasoning one's way out of an emotion". If one applies reason persistently and skillfully enough while experiencing the "negative" emotion, then it will pass.
For instance, if one is agoraphobic based on a false belief about going out of one's "safety zone", such that "if I go out in public I will certainly faint and fall down and the paramedics will have to be called and it will be embarrassing and expensive and I can't possibly tolerate something like that", then it's important to ask (rationally) if those things will really happen, to begin to believe that it's highly unlikely that those things will happen, and then gradually, with practice and time, one has actually "reasoned one's way out of an emotion". That's not to say it's not extremely uncomfortable and often extremely difficult. It often seems impossible to reason one's way out of an emotion because the emotion is so strong, but it can be done.
By the way, I am much inclined to agree with Glow's explanation regarding the "ingrained" nature of depressive or pathologically anxious states, that they are in fact "state-dependent" because they are based primarily in the state of the neurological phenomena taking place at the time, but it's common to use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy in conjunction with antidepressants or antianxiety medication to achieve the final outcome of "reasoning one's way out of an emotion".
I would disagree with it, although I'm not sure what Buddhism says on the subject. It is my experience that while we feel emotions, they are often irrational and thought leads to a more middle path between being reactive to your emotions or being emotionless and purely logical. So, I believe you can reason your way out of emotional responses but not out of emotions as a whole. I.e. you'll still experience happiness, sadness, frustration, etc but through mindfulness you'll better understand your emotions, the attachments related to these emotions and you'll be able to be "emotional" without it causing you pain or suffering.
In another thread someone posted the Dalai Lama's comments on mourning and depression. To summarize, it is acceptable and human to feel these emotions but it is unskillful to become attached to these emotions or to let them "take the wheel" if you will. That's how I read it at least.
If nothing else, this is a great opportunity to meditate on the origins, necessity and suffering/non-suffering related to emotions.
--Chris
Namaste
Thoughts are the easiest thing to change IMHO. Emotions are connected to physiological responses as well (heart rate, facial expression) that can restart them. Thoughts can also restart them as already stated.
Most emotions are connected in this way. The problem is with sudden and intense emotion which usually is not connected to a conscious or even sub-conscious thought but to incoming sensory data (sight, sound, etc) that triggers fight/flight. This is especially the case in PTSD. But even in these cases mindfulness is the first step.
Saying we can think our way out of emotions is like saying we can water our way out of fish.
We would want to make so-called negative emotions less painful, or correct incorrect emotions. I think "modulate" emotions is a more correct term than "leave". It's a simple matter of not being overpowered by them.
But to think our way out of an emotion- consider something that might normally cause fear, like a man throwing a knife in your direction. You experience fear of death, and perhaps anger or hate for the man throwing the knife in your direction. Then you take notice (which changes your thinking about the situation) that the man is actually throwing the knife at another man behind you that was sneaking up on you to kill you. Would that not be an example of how changing thinking about a situation changes the emotional response to a situation? (Not a very Buddhist example, I know.)
We can change our emotions by changing our analysis or self-addressed thinking about a situation or occurrence. Otherwise we would become stuck in one emotional state and never be able to change it.
I would categorize that as a recognition rather than what I think Lostie meant as a thought. I think Lostie means say someone just called you a dick could you reason your way out of the emotion you experienced or how do you really react? How could you react? What are the possibilities?
Your example would be if you recognized that they didn't call you a dick they called someone else. Which in a sense is a thought too so I see what you mean. I think thought refers to some conflicting phenomenon. Its hard to be precise with just 'thought' and 'emotion'.
It doesn't have to be an outside party you can just ruminate and stew with thoughts. And feel so heavy.
And back to the original question. That is where mindfulness comes in. So your right too, but I am finding something in my experience.
But we create them don't we, gen and if we wanna we can keep 'em running as long as I want.
Jeffrey, I think the process goes something like: 1:Stop and relax 2:Reframe your thinking if possible by going over possible alternative scenarios like we see Robot having done here, and 3: See if the emotion changes to something more manageable based on a more correct thinking assessment/interpretation of the situation.
And that, SherabDorje, is a perfect description of the meditative process: 1. shamatha (concentration) 2. vipassana (insight) 3. post-absorption.
Well, good on me, and Dr. Aaron Beck too!:D
I had never heard of him.
Learned helplessness is an enlightening {conceptualization} of suffering subjectively experienced.
Psychological Studies of PunishmentAuthor(s): Barry F. SingerSource: California Law Review, Vol. 58, No. 2 (Mar., 1970)
Jeffrey, I suggest you just brainstorm alternative scenarios or alternative ways of thinking about an issue either by yourself or with a trusted friend- many people do this with a therapist. Just be creative. Ask yourself what the alternative ways of thinking about the issue might be.
Peace to all.
Its very challenging to make a frame for a picture and the taste in it is subjective wouldn't you say? But we cannot deny that we have that experience of taste or so they say?
Yes, thank you. And his wiki led me to the profound bit of learned helplessness.
I am coming from teachings by a teacher who has studied the Mahamudra. The nature of awareness as clarity openness and sensitivity is emphasized. Within the Dzogchen tradition I believe that would be Rigpa. It is also taught that frames of view are not the problem but that grasping onto them is. This is related to the point I was trying to make.
I merely said I thought awareness was amazing and wondered how a suitable frame comes to the forefront of awareness. A sense of wonder looking onward with a light touch not straining. Which I am adamant that that is amazing and we need not try to find an airtight theory as that will always fail because the nature of awareness cannot be known by concepts. In turn you suggested I see a therapist to brainstorm ideas.
I would like you to reflect on how it could cause problems for you if when having a disagreement with someone you suggest that they seek therapy. That can be not very tactful. In my case I was not suggesting that I needed a remedy to more rapidly unconfuse. I was expressing my own wonder at the mind. Linked with the idea of clarity openness and sensitivity. In that system the way to get increasing clarity is to open to the situation which includes opening to positive and negative emotions. And from my side it was hurtful because it suggests that my problems understanding the dharma come from emotional problems which I am not receptive to hear from a 'forum dude'.
Moreover even should that be accurate I am sure I am not the only one in that camp and of course those with emotional problems can benefit from discussions in a forum and study in fact that is presumably another source of healing in conjunction with therapy.
I am just guessing you were frustrated when you suggested that and well intending, but that you hadn't realized the social sense of boundaries in suggesting therapy which is unfortunate. I will try to heal my own sense of stigma at seeking therapy, but I think you should be aware that it is very common to feel a sense of stigma and take special care when you suggest that to someone. Also reflect that your understanding is limited and that therapy may not be a suitable cure for a particular problem as I have tried to clear up in my first two paragraphs and the first portion of the third..
Thank you for having good intentions however.
Privileging certain emotions and denigrating certain others is just attachment and aversion to certain states of mind. By all means apply an antidote if you can't apply mere wakeful presence. For me, I have found that less monkeying about with the gears is helpful. Emotions are wonderful. Even anger has a tremendous clarity and precision if you just stay with it and don't get carried away into hateful thinking or harmful action.
I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have caused. I did not mean to suggest that you should seek therapy- I just meant to suggest that some people do this type of brainstorming and cognitive reframing or restructuring with a therapist. I have not gone back to read the post in which I talked about therapy before writing this one, but I remember "backing up" to write something that I meant to mean that people in general sometimes do this rather than have it look like I was suggest that you in particular seek therapy.
In any case, it appears I have caused misunderstanding and I apologize.
"Don't think of pink elephants!"
As long as you are giving energy to these thoughts and patterns of behaviour, there will be no healing from them. On the other hand, practice can loosen your attachment to the "I" thought, which is the basis of all of the problems. If you gain some real experience of spaciousness, then while the problems don't go away, they cease to be disturbing.
I am not convinced that the event with your mother is foundational. It may be one link in a long chain of how you think about yourself. In other words, based on certain events you started building mental habits. These patterns have been repeated so many times by you that they feel very substantial and real.
Given that I think you are dealing not just with a few disturbing thoughts but rather a whole habitual pattern of who you think you are in relation to the world, I think it is even more critical to just look frankly and CHEERFULLY at your emotions. I know how painful those thoughts can be, I dealt with an actual infidelity back in my early 20s that was crushing. However, the feelings are never so bad as all of our thoughts tell us they will be. Our self-protection becomes in a real way more painful and restricting than what we are trying to protect ourselves from.
The first step is really to make friends with your emotions and resolve to respect what they are telling you without getting caught up in building scenarios and excessive speculation. Just stay with the feeling. If you are feeling fear, let yourself feel the fear without feeling averse to it or that you need to do anything about it. Be courageous. If you just let it be, it never lasts long.
Over time, you will find that this becomes a certain knack you develop. The wonderful thing is that as you do so, you gain tremendous respect for the insight that your emotions bring you when freed from the constant pushing and pulling of attachment and aversion. The past is past, the future has not yet arisen and in this moment you are just simply relaxed and alert. Does this make sense?