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What Is The Goal Of Buddhism?
compassionate_warrior
Veteran
On this site we have seen many different statements as to what the goal of Buddhism is.
One OP said that the goal was "to develop yourself to help others".
Yet there are some who disagree that helping others with "mundane" suffering in this lifetime is a worthy activity.
Is Liberation the only goal? Are there multiple goals? Are the goals the same for each school and sect, or are there differences?
One OP said that the goal was "to develop yourself to help others".
Yet there are some who disagree that helping others with "mundane" suffering in this lifetime is a worthy activity.
Is Liberation the only goal? Are there multiple goals? Are the goals the same for each school and sect, or are there differences?
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"Wishing to entice the blind,
The Buddha has playfully let words
Escape his golden mouth.
Heaven and earth have ever since
Been filled with entangling briars."
Suppose, for playful purposes, we say that the goal of Buddhism is "wisdom." The word "wisdom" sounds pretty wise, but the actualized implications and necessities of what is referred to are left out. For example, wisdom means compassion, but the minute we say compassion, which sounds pretty compassionate, the actualized implications and necessities go begging. We end up, for my money, talking in haphazard approximations -- approximations whose clarity we ourselves must endeavor -- unless we would prefer to remain in the playful realm -- to actualize.
Just some thoughts.
I'll take "the unshakeable deliverance of mind" (Liberation). Deliverance of mind from what? From suffering, from afflictions. We're making progress.
What about the compassion part? As we strive for Liberation, should we be devoting ourselves to compassionate acts, or is that just a distraction from our efforts towards deliverance or Nirvana?
Each individual has firstly the task of seriously deciding what it is they want to get out of Buddhism. It can be no different than other "religions" if one becomes "Buddhist" for reasons other than realizing the truth and helping others.
Does the cessation of afflictions lead automatically to Liberation/Nirvana, or is there another step inbetween?
(In the beginning we listen to our parents and try to do what they teach us, because they know when we're all grown up we'll have wanted to do things the right way; and doing them the right way helps us get to a better place, even if we don't know such things in our youth. If we attend to our parents' wishes, life is easier. If we fight against them, we may end up having a very difficult time later in life. This is a generalization of course.)
So helping others is both right/skillful (as far as the Buddha and other enlightened beings' perspective) and skillful in creating a wholesome mental view that leans toward awakening, helps to facilitate awakening. How much effort we put into helping others depends upon each of us, and we have to keep in mind that we're not just trying to help them but also to understand (completely and without doubt) why we should care for them the same as we care for ourselves.
Namaste
Developing countries still need the help of developed countries.
Both developed and developing countries are helping and in varying degrees, affinity and more importantly is the blessings of sentient beings!
Mette and I hate you
A Theravada sutta speaks of wise and unwise attention. Unwise attention leads to the "tangle of views"..........who am I? what was I? what will I be? Wise attention is "THIS is suffering, THIS is its cause......" i.e. To actualize, to SEE. Not to define and argue about the various definitions, which seems to be running up and down the river bank rather than crossing.
And how do we SEE? Ask me another.
Perhaps open to the tangle and let it be a tangle. Unless you take it as an object of meditation you will not fixate on the tangle and it will go back down into seed consciousness.
Karma is only appearance side of appearance emptiness. Kinda text bookish. Thats why I am sharing and retorting rather than teaching.
And I gave my own context to it.
This is how he attends unwisely: "Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future? Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: "Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?"
When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arise in him. The view "self exists for me" arises in him as true and established; or the view "no self exists for me" arises in him as true and established; or the view "I perceive self with self" arises in him as true and established; or the view "I perceive not-self with self" arises in him as true and established; or the view "I perceive self with not-self" arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as this: "It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity." This speculative view is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from.......suffering, I say.
He attends wisely: "This is suffering"; he attends wisely "This is the origin of suffering"; he attends wisely "This is the cessation of suffering"; he attends wisely "This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering."
Again, remember what I have left undeclared as undeclared and remember what I have declared as declared. And what have I left undeclared? "The world is eternal"- I have left undeclared. "The world is not eternal" - I have left undeclared. "The world is finite" - I have left undeclared. "The world is infinite" - I have left undeclared. "The soul is the same as the body" - I have left undeclared. "The soul is one thing and the body is another" - I have left undeclared. "After death an enlightened one exists" - I have left undeclared. "After death an enlightened one does not exist" - I have left undeclared. "After death an enlightened one both exists and does not exist" - I have left undeclared. "After death an enlightened one neither exists not does not exist" - I have left undeclared.
Why have I left this undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nirvana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? "This is suffering", "This is the origin of suffering", "This is the cessation of suffering", "his is the way leading to the cessation of suffering".
Obviously this is Theravada. Each to their own.
I have a suspicion that the monastic development of Buddhism has washed out the happiness part of the path, the sukka. So now its all about negating the negative, rather than promoting the positive.
However if you've found your happy waypoint, and that's all that you want, I'm more than overjoyed for you! It's a great thing to accomplish your goals in this life; now you can do whatever else you want.
Namaste
I don't think so, again, I think this is a remnant from the masculine monastic influences on Buddhism. I have just been for a walk with my father and nephews in a snowy wood, it was fun and happy and devoid of dukka at every level. or would you say I am mistaken about this?
Of course, were I to be deluded about the experience, or to attached to it or its passing, then yes, that would be dukka.
I guess if you find it hard to experience dukka because you are always looking for the dukka, then yes, one might share your view.
>>>>We get bogged down by our own troubles.
Sure we do:)
Namaste
I think dukka is far more than the absence of happiness, and awareness of it is to the benefit not the detriment of happiness. Mind you, nor is it this mere suffering that gets so readily accepted as a catcall.
Existence is Dukka because of impermanence and interconnected, Experience is dukka because of the same. Suffering, stress, strain, conflict, these are just incidental arisings of dukka, yet they get us so often in all we do.
namaste
Are you just a tough cookie and very resilient and strong? I always hear you saying how the dharma makes so much sense and I wonder at that. My tendancy is to cut to pieces a happy person I suppose. You seem real when you tell stories about your family but when you say the trappings of buddhism are dogma I think you are missing out on community perhaps. Or you are just very integrated.
I am happy for you that you are satisfied in your place. Whether its true or not it is inspiring. But it seems like it was so easy for you. Just like Christians say all you do is have faith in God.
Maybe I have an attraction for complications? Interesting to ponder...
OK
>>>>>"Jeffrey">>>>I imagine you also have difficulties and I am ok if you are private with them.
Thank's largley to dharma, I don't really have difficulties in myself, to be honest. Most of the negative issues I do have come from the nasty world we live in. I am still lost as to how we are supposed to not be attached to the helish world out there, especially in the third world but also it seems getting ever closer to home.
>>>>Was the dharma really easy to you?
No, I wouldn't say that. It still is hard in places and at times. Dharma isn't magic for me, it isn't mysterious or mystical. It is mundane and pragmatic and clear and wonderful.
>>>>My concern for myself is that I am doing it wrong or wishing that I could be happier and less depressed and overwhelmed by my family gatherings and the pressure of christmas.
If you are doing it wrong that would mean you are not following the eightfold path, na?
As for family gatherings, I feel a very primal sense of ego when I am in them, ego in me and egos around me. Its a recipe for disaster!:) Which is why extra diligence with the path and especially metta and mindfullness is the only way for me.
>>>>As you say the dharma is so easy and you are so happy I naturally look at my own experience and feel frustrated.
Maybe you expect too much from it? Maybe you are too attached to these expectations?
>>>>Are you just a tough cookie and very resilient and strong?
I wouldn't say that.
>>>>I always hear you saying how the dharma makes so much sense and I wonder at that.
It does make sense to me, from the very deep level to the shallow ego levels. Not because "I am special" but because, when you strip away the Buddhism and are left just with the dharma, what you have is very simple, clear and indubitable.
>>>My tendancy is to cut to pieces a happy person I suppose.
I guess you need to find the cause of that inside yourself:)
>>>>You seem real when you tell stories about your family but when you say the trappings of buddhism are dogma
If anyone, be they the dalai lamma or some ancient text or the lady in your local Buddhist centre, if anyone tells you what you should believe, I believe they are being dogmatic and undharmic.
>>>>I think you are missing out on community perhaps.
A Buddhist community should be valued. A Buddhist authority should be avoided.
Incidentally, I think the community we have here has far more positive aspects than negative.
>>>>Or you are just very integrated.
I am not sure what you mean there?
>>>>But it seems like it was so easy for you.
Twenty years+ ago I would be in bed in tears with profound existential doubts. Huge rifts.
Fifteen Years ago I remember smirking when a tutee asked me if he could do a module in Buddhism as part of his(or her??) philosophy course. I went and asked the department head and got the same smirk and mocking I had given. This was because we both thought that buddhism was this namby-pamby woo filled mystical religion about rebirths and incense.
About ten years ago I was living in sri lanka and started reading about buddhism when the powercuts came. slowly it started to fit together, due mainly to the kalama suttra and Rupolla but also talking to my buddhist fiends. It was still hard to reconcile it all with my philosophical beliefs.
I would say it took years to make sense of the noble truths, I'm still not sure I have them 100%, or if I ever will. It took years to see what the path was and how to practice it.
Forgive my waffle! But in a nutshell, no it hasn't been easy, but i guess nobody said it would be.
>>>>Just like Christians say all you do is have faith in God.
The exact opposite I feel: All you do is try as hard as you can to doubt the dharma.
>>>>Maybe I have an attraction for complications?
Maybe, that would be an ego thing. You aint that important;) Nobody is.
>>>>>Interesting to ponder...
Yes, for sure:)
well wishes jeffry
On the other hand, the Bhutanese, the King and ministers, have a different take, in spite of being male: they came up with the Gross National Happiness concept for measuring economic success. As far as economic analysis is concerned, I think they're on the right track.