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wanting not to want
aHappyNihilist
Veteran
I'm trying to understand a pretty annoying apparent Buddhist paradox. How can you possibly free yourself from craving? The reason not to crave things is to free yourself, the reason to free yourself is to help achieve enlightenment, the reason to achieve enlightenment is that it makes you happy. But then aren't you just craving happiness?
please don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from all craving then free yourself from the craving to free yourself or something like that.. you would just be creating a new craving, the craving to free yourself from the craving to free yourself, all with the goal of happiness.
also don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from craving without wanting to free yourself from craving, because it is impossible to do something on purpose without wanting to do it. and if you do it by accident then what's the use of buddhism?
please don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from all craving then free yourself from the craving to free yourself or something like that.. you would just be creating a new craving, the craving to free yourself from the craving to free yourself, all with the goal of happiness.
also don't give me the answer that you have to free yourself from craving without wanting to free yourself from craving, because it is impossible to do something on purpose without wanting to do it. and if you do it by accident then what's the use of buddhism?
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"The point is to feel pain when pain arises, hunger when hunger arises, etc., but you don't dwell on it and get wrapped up in it. It's the getting wrapped up in the pain that causes the suffering. You don't deny the pain, either. Just observe the pain and learn the lesson it has to teach, address the imbalance, and move on."
--you don't dwell on it and get wrapped up in it.--
You're right that you have to want enlightenment, but it's a want coupled with Right View; you want to end wanting, to realize the truth, and this has been said to be a skillful form of wanting.
I'm not so sure about that.
Analogy:
You want to learn about the civil war, so you get a book on it. Do you grudgingly read through the book, unwillingly, not wanting to? No! You want to read the book, you want to learn about the war or you wouldn't read.
Desire for liberation I presume is like that. You don't hate every moment you're trying to attain it, you're learning all the way through.
also the desire for liberation is definitely a cause of suffering, even at this moment i am trying to understand it, i am enjoying the conversation, the process of learning, but the desire to know is still a suffering.
Warrior - The very fact that your changing the orientation of your life suggests a desire of a certain goal. You are doing this all out of a basic motivation of a desire for nirvana - happiness - pleasure.
Cloud - The end apparently comes when craving ceases to exist, i'm trying to understand how craving can cease to exist. I believe that there is an end but I don't understand how it can be achieved. Don't you see the paradox in craving to end craving?
Craving ends when you realize why you crave and the fallacies involved in those cravings; the delusion involved. When the mind sees clearly, it stops. It's not like you can say "okay mind, stop craving!"... the mind itself has to transform through understanding and practice. Enlightenment is akin to a child putting their hand into the fire; before that, they had only their parents word for it and didn't understand pain. After that do you think they'd do it again? No. Same goes for us. When we realize on a profound experiential level how we suffer, and how our craving is tied to that, we cease to crave. Done. Finito.
warrior, i understand what your trying to say but my point is how can you go about life as a buddhist when your only motivation is a desire for happiness. You talk about not thinking about it but how can you say, meditate without wanting to meditate. how can you do anything relating to buddhism without wanting, craving liberation?
OK, but there is a bit of a paradox, in the Buddha being attached to the idea of realizing Enlightenment, or non-attachment, to use slightly different terms. You're right. One needs the desire because it provides motivation, but when one reaches the goal, the attachment (or craving) dissolves. The analogy of a raft has been used; the wish for Liberation is a raft, but once you realize the goal, you no longer need the raft.
I don't see the desire to know as a suffering. I see the path as something enjoyable. It sounds to me like you're stressing out about wanting to reach the goal (maybe I'm wrong about that?), so I gave you some advice to take it a little more lightly, loosen your grip a little so you can enjoy the process, as you said you're able to do to some extent.
So it comes as a revelation after much work, in which you must crave liberation. After you finally fully understand the nature of craving all craving ceases.
oh and my first paragraph in the last comment was directed to cloud
Once you have no more desire for anything you have already reached the goal of liberation and so you can no longer crave it.
yea thanks for helping, i have a really hard time doing anything without a rational understanding of why i should do it, or without knowing whether i'm actually seeking something of value.
The second noble truth states that the origination of suffering is "the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming" (SN 56.11). As Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains in Wings to Awakening:
Desire, on the other hand, can be skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala) depending on the context. The desire for happiness, especially long-term welfare and happiness, is actually an important part of the Buddhist path. Moreover, desire is listed as one of the four bases of power (iddhipada), which themselves are included in the seven sets of qualities that lead to the end of suffering (MN 103). The four qualities listed in the bases of power are desire, persistence, intent and discrimination. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu points to this passage: He goes on to explain that, "This passage shows that the problem lies not in the desire, effort, intent or discrimination, but in the fact that these qualities can be unskillfully applied or improperly tuned to their task."
If we take a look at the exchange between Ananda and the brahmin Unnabha in SN 51.15, for example, we can see that the attainment of the goal is indeed achieved through desire, even though paradoxically, the goal is said to be the abandoning of desire. That's because at the end of the path desire, as well as the other three bases of power, subside on their own. As Ananda explains at the end of SN 51.15:
(I don't mean to be a stickler, in fact, I probably agree with you, as I commented earlier that "craving" wasn't the right word. But then this quote came up with the term "craving of becoming". Can you clarify?)
Theres nothing wrong with gently testing the boat. But as an idea there is not an airtight theory for a sure thing. There are always premises such as the buddha was a buddha that cannot be proven with concepts.
(Thanks, Jason.)
(Hi, Jeffrey.
"What is there to cling to?" Lots of stuff. Like I said, people can and do cling to things/people. Those people and things are as real as the speeding car heading our way when we cross the street, as I brought up earlier on another thread.
Goodnight, TJ. It's been a long and fruitful day, I'd say. Good work.