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Karma- 'that's what you get!'
At times, when something not so desirable happens to someone, another usually replies with a 'They get what they deserve,' or 'what goes around comes around.'
Now, that could be also meant kindly, if something nice happens- pay raise, etc.
So, how can you 'accurately' describe something, as to not make it seem so matter-of-factly, and like the person deserves what's happening to them, good or not?
Or should you even?
thanks.
Now, that could be also meant kindly, if something nice happens- pay raise, etc.
So, how can you 'accurately' describe something, as to not make it seem so matter-of-factly, and like the person deserves what's happening to them, good or not?
Or should you even?
thanks.
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Comments
That's what I was thinking, to both.
That's just what happens.
Like a baby dying, is that karma? Did it do something to deserve dying so young? It happens.
What if you aren't trained though, you just suffer. I couldn't imagine that for someone.. especially myself or someone I know. Even if I didn't, just anyone! That's why it might be better if everyone followed Buddha, but it can't. So maybe it's better this way. I don't know.
Thank you, though, Cloud. And everyone.
Oh yeah, and happy new year!
First, there are bad things people do to each other. So, a baby was kidnapped or beaten. Karma, right? The baby did something bad in a previous life? No, the baby's past karma did not force people to perform evil acts on it. Saying the victim deserved it is the same as saying the person who does this is not responsible. Your karma does not force people to do things to harm you. That is their own karma. So, this is a wrong view of karma. It's also a common view.
Then, there are the bad things that just happen to people. Accidents and acts of nature and such. A baby is born autistic. A family is swept away in a flood. Past life karma? An entire family with bad karma coming their way? Of course not. Babies do not arrive with a load of karma from an infinite number of past lives to work off. The flood does not care if one or a thousand innocent people are swept away, it just obeys the forces of nature. So this is also a wrong view of karma. The drowned man's karma did not cause the flood. It's also a common view.
So some Masters throw their hands up in frustration after the thousandth time someone wants it explained, and say, "Only a Buddha can understand karma!" It reminds me of my Christian roots, and when pressed to explain why bad things happen to good people, they end up saying "It's God's plan, beyond our understanding." Avoiding the question is not the same thing as understanding the answer.
It is our desire for justice in the world that twists karma into a wrong view. It's looking at karma in terms of punishment and reward. It's trying to use karma to explain why bad things happen to good people, and why people who don't deserve it seem to get so much. To understand karma, you only have to penetrate this dualistic view of life.
Actions have consequences. That's all.
Some parts of your life story are out of your control. You didn't choose the parents, or the situation you were born into. You didn't choose the world you live on or the actions of the people you have to live among. Thus, you can't say anyone deserves or doesn't deserve any of this. You can't know all the consquences of your actions, even. A decision that seems good can turn out to be bad, but that bad consequence can turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you, seen from a later time.
So what's a Buddhist to do? Buddhism is a path of liberation from the entire concept of karma as fate. Let go of the question about good and bad, not because it can't be understood, but because it's irrelevant. People suffer. Why? Because they are suffering. So help them, and help yourself while you're at it.
Vipaka is consequence.
So when people talk about 'bad karma!" they believe they are talking about the consequence. What they actually mean is "Bad Vipaka!" but they don't realise that.
I would believe it if you had to be a Buddha to know why karma does what it does, and what karma is and is not.
Cinorjer, thank you, especially. That makes a lot of sense.
As well, everyone else- good information to hear from others.
Thanks! Have a nice New year.
Namaste
This was sort of a New Years gift for me and others, I hope. Thanks, I can start the new year with less distraction from worry about karma. You've lightened the burden of some past bad teachings that I still carry around.
:bowdown: :clap: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :clap:
I've never heard or seen any masters/teachers throwing up their hands and saying "Only the Buddha can understand karma". The Lamrim, for one document, explains how it works in detail. But I note that many people here don't accept those teachings. And I must say, that if it's true karma isn't the only operative principle, that idea is absent from the Lamrim. According to Vajrayana teachings, by the way, we did choose our parents. I think it's up to each of us, obviously, to decide which teachings we'll accept, or which school of Buddhism to follow. I think discussions like this are valuable because they may cause us to question teachings, re-evaluate, etc., just as the Buddha taught.
Vajrayana does hold a more literal view of rebirth than some other schools of Buddhism. However, it's important to note that this teaching also divides karma into different types, since there is agreement that karma is intentional action and babies certainly don't begin life able to decide anything. So correct me if I'm wrong, but a baby begins with past karma only (acquired karma), and even then the Buddha lists as a wrong view the idea that all happiness or suffering arises from previous or present karma.
(Frankly, I've really come to have more and more doubts about Vajrayana since joining this site. But that's what I'm schooled in, so that's what I present. Though I'm far from an advanced practitioner.But I'm reading everything with an open mind, to learn. What's your tradition, C?)
My own Teacher would say that your particular understanding of karma is only important if it gets in the way of your practice. Buddhism is, after all, a path of liberation from karma, no matter how you think it works. Replace karma with "genetics", which is just physical karma by another name, and people don't have a problem with past life karma.
re: genetics--there have been new findings that document that suffering such as experiencing famine actually gets encoded into the genome, and manifests in subsequent generations in the metabolic processes, i.e. a tendency to hold onto calories. That's probably true of other types of suffering, other types of trauma as well. Epigenetics is the name of this relatively new science. Sounds like karma to me.
The Buddha quite clearly states that the Laws and workings of Kamma are an unconjecturable and vexatious problem, and should not be thought upon for fear of making the thinker go mad.
Anyone who purports to have a concrete answer is, in my opinion, putting themselves above the wisdom and teachings of the Buddha.
The workings of Kamma are impossible to divinate, and as such, questions, such as those concerning a baby's Kamma are sure to lead to frustration, inner conflict and resistance. Really. How can anybody truly know for sure, for sure? Lama or otherwise? If it's any consolation, I didn't adhere to any specific Buddhist tradition for a very, very long time. I initially leant towards Mahayana, because there are so many books on the market written by experienced teachers, lamas and Nuns, which are all extremely worthy, instructive, pertinent and wise.
But all in all, my core leanings are towards Theravada. It;s so WYSIWYG, I love it..
Frankly, simple, no nonsense and it just gives me everything I need.
For true in-depth of knowledge of Theravada though, I've yet to meet a better read layperson than Jason.
Check this link:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html
I do what I can....
But I'm a staunch and vocal supporter of this 'simple' way....
I've always grasped (in a good way!) the 4NT, the 8Fold path and the 5 precepts as being pretty much everything anyone needs to get from A to B.
I'm further, much comforted that a very good friend, who is a Bikkhu, and a nun at my local temple both supported this notion and recommended it as a good way to go. This wonderful nun also told me to go one better; 'Just be Mindful, and Simplify.'
This may not be everyone's way to go. I would think it inadvisable we all do the same thing.
We desperately need literate scholars like Jason. Heck, he has taught me much, as have others... But I think the simple Life isn't a bad one, myself.
And I read, federcia, karma was action. I never knew that, so thank you.
Kharma may either be the cause or effect of a single person's fate, or those of whole community. It can be driven by the actions of a single person, or the behavior of a whole society. It can be driven by even larger events that are environmental: the weather, an epidemic, a meteor.
There are many Kharma's acting on us all at once: those of our own actions, those of our parents' or family's, those of our society, and the environment where we are at, came from, going to be. Some Kharmas are bigger, stronger, more significant than others.
Some Kharma are immediately "balanced," while other can take hundreds of years to manifest. Smaller Kharma are easy to understand at a certain "shallow" level, but it is undoubtedly connected to a more broad and deep "cause" at the same time. On top of that, Kharmas are constantly colliding with one another, shallow and deep. It is complex.
To understand the complexity, picture a very active ocean. It's made up of waves of different sizes, large and small and everything in between, perpetually colliding with each other. There are the surface waves and there are the under currents. I view the complexity of Kharma this way. There are many Kharma in action all at once. Some Kharma are big, and others are small, some shallow, some deep and these are all in a perpetual state of collision in one big bowl we call our universe.
As large waves/currents overwhelm smaller ripples, when one Kharma collides with another, the larger and deeper will always will always prevail. If there is a concept of "justice" in the universe, this would be "the law," I guess.
As you and others said, "things happen." To some extent, we can dig and search a little to discover some fascinating things, and other times, it's either too big, or too many missing pieces for us to comprehend.
This is my understanding of Kharma. I don't mean to impose it, just to share my beliefs. I may be right, or not. Either way, I hope that helps.