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Legend has it that Prince Siddhartha wasnt satisfied with what *his* teachers and left ALONE!!!!!!!!
zenmyste
Veteran
Ive read this over and over and watches documentries on buddha. And Prince siddartha didnt like and agree with what his teachings were telling him, so he decided to SIT under a tree until he gained enlightenment.
My question is: IF the buddha did that, then why do people on here jump on other peoples cases when they might disagree with a buddhist text or disagree with something, When buddha himself didnt agree with any of his teachers when he first set out and he ended up being the awakened one!! And so another question would be: Do you think we all have the answers deep down and if we meditated ourselves and really searched for truth we could find *our OWN* truth...Or do you think Buddha is the ONLY way??
Also one more question pls: Would enlightenment be different for everyone. Or would they all see the same thing and comes up with the 8 fold path? or could another enlightened being see another way to end suffering??????
My question is: IF the buddha did that, then why do people on here jump on other peoples cases when they might disagree with a buddhist text or disagree with something, When buddha himself didnt agree with any of his teachers when he first set out and he ended up being the awakened one!! And so another question would be: Do you think we all have the answers deep down and if we meditated ourselves and really searched for truth we could find *our OWN* truth...Or do you think Buddha is the ONLY way??
Also one more question pls: Would enlightenment be different for everyone. Or would they all see the same thing and comes up with the 8 fold path? or could another enlightened being see another way to end suffering??????
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I think that the buddha points to a truth that you can realize yourself. From the perspective of the mahayana the dharmakaya penetrates all things so the buddha is everywhere.
Anyone practicing the path needs to have a correct view of reality. Just things as they are. I think that view would be individual for each person, but it would be the same quality of seeing things as they are. From that view you need a practice mandala to have forbearance and energy to practice. You need to extend your view into speach, body, and mind. You need to sort out what is helping and hurting (mindfulness). And you need to develope concentration.
Everyone's truth is their *own* truth, because it has to make sense and satisfy them. It doesn't matter what the Buddha understood, or what I understand. For some people, the best thing that could happen to them is they burn the Sutras they worship that are getting in the way of understanding. For others, letting go of the ego that tells them it's all about themselves and they don't need any ignorant old farts telling them what to do would help best.
i rarely see what you are stating...but people on here sometimes jump on other peoples cases when they declare "the Buddha taught this" when he didn't
useful to ask "why are so many people stuck on Buddha?"..."why do so many people seek to claim their own personal philosophies as being 'Buddhist'?"
the Buddha said there is only one way for the purification of beings
but other religions, including Buddha himself, had other ways to try to end suffering, although these ways are not 100% reliable
eg. you can believe in reincarnation or going to heaven to overcome the suffering that arises from death
but this may not be 100% effective because when people are old, often their minds stop functioning properly. if the mind cannot think properly then a belief system based in faith will collapse when thought collapses. a person will die very confused, with mind overcome by fear
but if a person masters the letting go of emptiness when they are young, then when they are old and their mind stops thinking that is fine...because they have already mastered letting go of ('self') thinking
best wishes
Take some time to learn Buddhism. Then, if you dont like it, go sit under a tree or in front of your iPad.
You could travel to that unknown destination all by yourself, without a map or anyone else. But why would anyone do that when other people have already traveled there and drew you a map of how to get there? Without a map there is a good chance you would end up walking around in circles for a long time unnecessarily. Seems like a waste.
I would suggest that he may well have absorbed much of what his teachers taught him, but he suspected there was simply something more - or even less - to what they were instructing.
He was determined to sit under the Boddhi tree, until he 'got it'.
I don't think it was a question of dislike or disagreement. I think it was a question of penetrative insight.
perhaps what they told him actually made perfect sense, but he realised he simply wasn't "getting it" and vowed to sit in meditation until he did.
And this is precisely how we move forward too.
we have to 'get it'. But we have to go through a whole load of mess, before we can shed the extraneous and sit with penetrative insight.
of course, we could all do that now, if we weren't so damned sure that we know everything already.....
The Buddha said Alara and Uddakka " Declared ". The Buddha himself did not say that Alara & Uddakka taught . If the Buddha was taught these two states as they declared then he should have no trouble entering First Jhana. However , the Uppakilesa Sutta shows that this is not the case. The Buddha had to struggle with a whole series of obstacles before he was able to find his way back into the First Jhana that he recalled practicing as a child. Later commentators assumed that the Buddha practiced First Jhana again as an adult under the two teachers based on what the two teachers declared. But additional details given by the Buddha in the Uppakilesa Sutta revealed that this is not the case. The Buddha himself made no mention of doing First Jhana under his teachers, but only stated that he recalled a childhood experience of jhana.
The Upakkilesa Sutta further show how the Buddha struggled with numerous obstacles to penetrating the sign when he tried to find his way back into the first Jhanas experienced during childhood. He then built up the rest of the states from there, which he later considered as “samma samadhi” :
" Before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, I too perceived both light and a vision of forms. Soon afterwards the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of the doubt my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that doubt will not arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived both light and a vision of forms. Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Inattention arose in me, and because of inattention my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Sloth and torpor arose in me, and because of sloth and torpor my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention nor sloth and torpor will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Fear arose in me, and because of fear my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man set out on a journey and murderers leaped out on both sides of him; then fear would arise in him because of that. So too, fear arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention nor sloth and torpor nor fear will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Elation arose in me, and because of elation my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man seeking one entrance to a hidden treasure came all at once upon five entrances to a hidden treasure; then elation would arise in him because of that. So too, elation arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor fear nor elation will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Inertia arose in me, and because of inertia my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor elation nor inertia will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Excess of energy arose in me, and because of excess of energy my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man were to grip a quail tightly with both hands; it would die then and there. So too, an excess of energy arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor inertia nor excess of energy will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Deficiency of energy arose in me, and because of deficiency of energy my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man were to grip a quail loosely; it would fly out of his hands. So too, a deficiency of energy arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor excess of energy nor deficiency of energy will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Longing arose in me, and because of that longing my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor deficiency of energy nor longing will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Perception of diversity arose in me, and because of perception of diversity my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor longing nor perception of diversity will arise in me again.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Excessive meditation upon forms arose in me, and because of excessive meditation upon forms my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor perception of diversity nor excessive meditation upon forms will arise in me again.’
“When, Anuruddha, I understood that doubt is an imperfection of the mind, I abandoned doubt, an imperfection of the mind. When I understood that inattention…sloth and torpor…fear…elation…inertia…excess of energy…deficiency of energy…longing…perception of diversity…excessive meditation upon forms is an imperfection of the mind, I abandoned excessive meditation upon forms, an imperfection of the mind.
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light but I did not see forms; I saw forms but I did not perceive light, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition for this?’ Then I considered thus: ‘On the occasion when I do not attend to the sign of forms but attend to the sign of light, I then perceive light but do not see forms. On the occasion when I do not attend to the sign of light but attend to the sign of forms, I then see forms but do not perceive light, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night.’
“As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived limited light and saw limited forms; I perceived immeasurable light and saw immeasurable forms, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition for this?’ Then I considered thus: ‘On the occasion when concentration is limited, my vision is limited, and with limited vision I perceive limited light and limited forms. But on the occasion when concentration is immeasurable, my vision is immeasurable, and with immeasurable vision I perceive immeasurable light and see immeasurable forms, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night.’
“When, Anuruddha, I understood that doubt is an imperfection of the mind and had abandoned doubt, an imperfection of the mind; when I understood that inattention is an imperfection of the mind and had abandoned inattention…abandoned sloth and torpor…abandoned fear…abandoned elation…abandoned inertia…abandoned excess of energy…abandoned deficiency of energy…abandoned longing…abandoned perception of diversity…abandoned excessive meditation upon forms, an imperfection of the mind; then I thought: ‘I have abandoned those imperfections of the mind. Let me now develop concentration in three ways.’
“Thereupon, Anuruddha, I developed concentration with applied thought and sustained thought; I developed concentration without applied thought but with sustained thought only; I developed concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought; I developed concentration with rapture; I developed concentration without rapture; I developed concentration accompanied by enjoyment; I developed concentration accompanied by equanimity. “When, Anuruddha, I had developed concentration with applied thought and sustained thought…when I had developed concentration accompanied by equanimity, the knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being.’”- MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta
Note: A person who actually practice the two formless states should have no trouble entering Jhana 1 . However, from his memory he was only aware that he is too physically depleted to slip into that state as he did when he was a child sitting in physical comfort. Other than that, if we look at the Upakkilesa Sutta which provides further details showing how the Buddha tried to get back into the state he experienced during his childhood, it was a struggle, he had to struggle with numerous obstacles. It was not the case that he remembers his childhood Jhana level 1 experience and then immediately know ‘Oh! that is a Level 1 Jhana, I ‘ve been doing that for so many times and even went many stages beyond that. I will simply enter that state now.’ There were much struggles to actually be able to find his way back into Jhana 1 experienced in childhood. We should not assume that the Buddha practice the form jhana as an adult when he himself never said that. He only mentioned Jhana 1 in childhood. The claim that he practice the form jhana as an adult is an assumption.
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dharma, thank you for your posts.
The jhanas are conditional and pass away whereas the nature of mind never comes and never goes.
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'
My argument is that the jhanas are conditioned. The buddha may have entered jhana in his childhood but it didn't bring enlightenment. He had to trust the unconditional nature of his mind. It is unreasonable to think that jhana, something conditioned, brings nirvana, something unconditioned.
If you do not believe me then enter jhana and see if that peace brings nirvana. Thank you.
Jhana only fulfills the second division of the Eightfold Path ( Sila, Samadhi, Panna), which is Samadhi. What is still needed is the development of the third division , which is Panna ( Wisdom). This has to do with the insight into Non-self, Anicca, Dukkha, and the like. All three division is needed to complete the Eightfold path of Awakening.
As a child the Buddha did not develop the third division of Insight, so there is no Enlightenment at that time when he was experiencing jhana as a child but much later on when he finally penetrated Anatta and the like.
With metta,