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I like that quote, it's nice. It's dealing with absolute reality, though. Which even with words as nice as his, can never described but must be experienced. The understandning of causality is necessary in order to turn that causality against itself. We must apply the 4 noble truths to the different links of causality.
This is becoming. This is the cause of becoming (clinging.) This is the cessation of becoming (the cessation of clinging.) This isthe path leading to the cessation of becoming (the 8-fold path.)
You can follow either path believing in non-self or non-other... both are noble practices..
google shentong and rangtong..
you just have a different view on emptiness than I do. I'm sorry but the definitions are different all down the line. Same sutras but different interpretations.
by mind he is referring to consciousness. and consciousness is empty like everything else.
If that is what he means, then he is incorrect in his understanidng. Consciousness is conditoned by both formation and namarupa. The cessation of consciousness is necessary to lead to the cessation of namarupa->the senses->contact-> [...] -> old age and death and the mass of suffering.
it's hard to say jeffrey. emptiness only exist in relation to form. but emptiness can also just be emptiness. i think when it comes to duality emptiness is conditioned.
but when it comes to non duality then emptiness is completely unconditioned.
i'm not sure if that makes sense, but that is what i am experiencing.
it is confusing.. because emptiness isn't intellectual.. form and emptiness aren't two separate things that switch back and forth when you become enlightened.
form is spacious.. there isn't anything other than spacious form..
yes when the non dual awareness rest upon itself you get presence. such presence is spacious and empty. we only divide form from emptiness because that is how our dualistic mind works. ultimately everything is just utter emptiness. even emptiness is utter emptiness, thus we cannot make it into an object.
emptiness is the unchanging but at the same time it appears to change as well. change is evident only in the mind. when we just look with awareness nothing is happening.
it is hard intellectually, but it fairly simple to feel and experience.
form is transformed into morality feeling into concentration - peace perception into wisdom formations into liberation consciousness into knowledge of liberation
so see now the question arises. can consciousness exist independently without a body/mind?
this comes directly back to the notion of death and rebirth. when a buddha realizes his inherent non dual nature (consciousness) and the emptiness of all things...and the buddha dies and enters paranirvana. does the buddha go on or is that the end?
i always attributed the idea of becoming as clinging to the mind. thus a buddha is one who does not cling to mind. such the buddha never becomes. even if the buddha appears to become it is merely a process. such the process of the body dying and becoming the earth again is inevitable. is consciousness conditioned? or does consciousness move forward into another body/mind or maybe even a formless realm?
i don't think these questions can be answered until we experience death ourselves. i do feel that consciousness does go on as it has always been. but then again that does go against a lot of the buddhas teachings. so hahaha back to square one.
Consciousness is empty ... of self. This si what emptiness means. Empty of self. It is empty of self becuase it is a conditioned phenomena. It is dependent upon interconnected factors for its existence. It is impermanent.
scratch that. the assumption is that there is the subjective consciousness. my consciousness is here and yours over there. when it comes down to it there is neither one or multiple consciousness, thus is it non dual.
and consciousness only arises in relation to mind/body. but this non dual reality is completely unconditioned in that it was never born or created. it just is. and in that sense becoming is merely the play of consciousness and mind.
as ultimately there is only what is and what is, is merely consciousness, mind, and body coming together to create such experience. no subject or object, just this experience.
it's like when the wind touches my skin. i experience the sensation and in essence such sensation is non dual. it can only occur during certain circumstances thus making it conditioned. and it is constantly changing thus asserting its emptiness.
so its this fun balance between nothing and everything. arising and falling.
Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, The moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky Are reflected in one dewdrop on the grass. Dogen
You are taking things to a level that basically states there is no path whatsoever, which is not what the Buddha taught. There is Dukkha. There is a cause of Dukkha. There is the cessation of Dukkha. There is a pth leading to the cessation of Dukkha. This is what the Buddha taught.
If you want to be free, Get to know your real self. It has no form, no appearance, No root, no basis, no abode, But is lively and buoyant. It responds with versatile facility, But its function cannot be located. Therefore when you look for it, You become further from it; When you seek it, You turn away from it all the more. - Linji
"in one moment of acceptance of suffering, you've transcended suffering. such acceptance is unconditional."
This refers to the condition of avidya. Not recognizing suffering. Ignorance.
If the consciousness were not empty you would never recognize suffering. Vidya is the quality of mind that comes back. When you meditate and get caught up in a dream that is not wrong. If that didn't happen the meditation would not work. When you stop beating yourself for drifting off you notice the emptiness which is the quality of mind to come back to awareness.
We can be in some emotional pain and not admitting it. Spinning off and creating more and more negative karma. We are afraid and are trying to control things to stop the karma but it is like we have our hands on fire and are just spreading the fire to our belongings and loved ones.
It is not under our control. By trusting the nature of mind the quality shines forth from the clouds to come back to awareness and recognize suffering.
emptiness means the lack of something. it is the middle way as in it is not asserting something or nothing. the lack of something.
it's very subtle language. nagarjuna strictly said that to make emptiness into a philosophical stance or to mistake it for some naive nihilism would be to take a shit on the buddhas.
emptiness is what is. it isn't a claim or assertion. when you negate everything you come at the lack of what you previously thought was there. everything is still there it is just empty.
Shakyamuni did say the 5 skandas are empty of self nature. That is the shravaka or hearer understanding of emptiness.
I can recommend the book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Gyamptso Tsultrim Rinpoche. I am not sure if it will have the citations you need to check scripture.
But it would explain to you five views on emptiness which would expand your horizons if nothing better let you see different views.
my (temporal) conclusion is that Shakyamuni never proposed Shunyata as a central concept, Nagarjuna and later thinkers tought that Shunyata was a logical conclusion of what Shakyamuni taught. however, in my opinion this does not follow.
If its not in the mahayana canon then why are the mahayana teachers using the concept of shunyata?
The kalama sutra says to examine your own experience. So it doesn't matter what shakyamuni said. He may have said many different things to many different people. We don't know. We have only what is recorded.
More important than 1000 ideas which you understand but do not help you is one idea which you understand and helps you. Therefore if shunyata does not help you then you should abandon it.
That is the basis rather than if it is in a scripture.
I have only grazed the suface of understanding emptiness like a fleeting glimpse of the sun and find it grossly inappropriate to discuss, especially when teaching the path to those who have little experience. Emptiness is not a "thing" to be held up a looked at. Who can hold the sun?
"Talisman does not die and become a goat. Talisman dies. The state of becoming conditioned by Talisman's attachment to self gives rise to the birth of the aggregates. These aggregates, thus condtioned by Talisman's state of becoming, are born conditioned upon Talisman's state of becoming."
Ok you didn't say that but this is where we diverged to emptiness.. DO is the flip side of emptiness. DO is how things are. Emptiness is how they are not.
Two sides of the same coin. But just a view. No big deal. A view doesn't change one hair on your head. The earth is good.
In the teaching of paticca samuppāda - it has accurately answer your doubt on the truth of your Avijja (Avidya) / Ignorance (the lack of wisdom, which is the root of obscuration as to self of persons and self of phenomena) that resulted to Sankhara (Samskara) or Karma formations of wholesome and/or unwholesome compositional deeds that depraving or nurturing of loving-kindness etc.....in regards to the vows of the Boddhisattva, it applies the experiences of Boddhisattva who had attained enlightenment that naturally transforms this Avijja into omni-loving-kindness that you all have in common. Sort of a blind needs the wisdom eyes to lead the way before the blind has its inherent wisdom eyes back. From the revelation Buddha dharma, it goes to demonstrate the undeniable wisdom of Buddha Gotama that truly deserve your love and praise. :wow:
Thats an interesting view Vincenzi. In my experience 'emptiness' is an interesting concept to think about. I have had some success transforming negative emotions by 'airing them out'.. Its like I see that they are just thinking...
One way of understanding emptiness is that it is to see that your thoughts are just thoughts and not get caught up in them.
So it isn't a method COME BACK TO THE BREATH...
its not like that it is more organic..
It is more like EUREKA I am dreaming! Welcome back
emptiness is a concept in that it is merely a projection of language that we use to describe or point to a non dual reality.
meaning emptiness is something to be realized, not philosophized. things change thus they are empty. things are also interconnected thus they are empty.
nirvana can only be realized when such non dual emptiness is realized. when someone is abiding in such emptiness via mindfulness, one can see that nirvana is merely the natural state and that samsara is merely the nature state. thus through mindfulness there is automatic release from clinging to nirvana/samsara.
Vincenzi does not understand emptiness. The concept isn't the emptiness.
If you just have the concept there is no nirvana. That is the problem. Just keep examining your experience in meditation. See if its true THOU SHALT BE ON THE BREATH I AM THE VOICE OF LORDLY JUDGEMENT WHO SHALT GRANT NIRVANA....THOU SHALT BE ON THE BREATH or 'oh here i am i am back '
The concept is relational conditional understanding. Samsara as usual stamped by dukkha.
"Traditionally the Eightfold Path is taught with eight steps such as Right Understanding, Right Speech, Right Concentration, and so forth. But the true Eightfold Path is within us-two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, a tongue, and a body. These eight doors are our entire Path and the mind is the one that walks on the Path. Know these doors, examine them, and all the dharmas will be revealed.
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.
Do not try to become anything. Do no make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.
Why not give it a try? Do you dare?" - Achaan Chah from "A Still Forest Pool".
the point is to realize the non dual reality, which in essence is emptiness. or if you want to frame it another way: impermanence (anicca); suffering or unsatisfactoriness (dukkha); non-self (anattā).
Comments
I like that quote, it's nice. It's dealing with absolute reality, though. Which even with words as nice as his, can never described but must be experienced. The understandning of causality is necessary in order to turn that causality against itself. We must apply the 4 noble truths to the different links of causality.
This is becoming.
This is the cause of becoming (clinging.)
This is the cessation of becoming (the cessation of clinging.)
This isthe path leading to the cessation of becoming (the 8-fold path.)
Thanks for the contribution, for real.
google shentong and rangtong..
you just have a different view on emptiness than I do. I'm sorry but the definitions are different all down the line. Same sutras but different interpretations.
If ceasing consciousness is the goal of buddhism then we need the Jack and Coke sutra :vimp: Thats a joke but also serious.
we don't get rid of any of them. Just transform.
i think when it comes to duality emptiness is conditioned.
but when it comes to non duality then emptiness is completely unconditioned.
i'm not sure if that makes sense, but that is what i am experiencing.
form is spacious.. there isn't anything other than spacious form..
emptiness is the unchanging but at the same time it appears to change as well. change is evident only in the mind. when we just look with awareness nothing is happening.
it is hard intellectually, but it fairly simple to feel and experience.
feeling into concentration - peace
perception into wisdom
formations into liberation
consciousness into knowledge of liberation
this comes directly back to the notion of death and rebirth. when a buddha realizes his inherent non dual nature (consciousness) and the emptiness of all things...and the buddha dies and enters paranirvana. does the buddha go on or is that the end?
i always attributed the idea of becoming as clinging to the mind. thus a buddha is one who does not cling to mind. such the buddha never becomes. even if the buddha appears to become it is merely a process. such the process of the body dying and becoming the earth again is inevitable. is consciousness conditioned? or does consciousness move forward into another body/mind or maybe even a formless realm?
i don't think these questions can be answered until we experience death ourselves. i do feel that consciousness does go on as it has always been. but then again that does go against a lot of the buddhas teachings. so hahaha back to square one.
when it comes down to it there is neither one or multiple consciousness, thus is it non dual.
and consciousness only arises in relation to mind/body. but this non dual reality is completely unconditioned in that it was never born or created. it just is. and in that sense becoming is merely the play of consciousness and mind.
as ultimately there is only what is and what is, is merely consciousness, mind, and body coming together to create such experience. no subject or object, just this experience.
it's like when the wind touches my skin. i experience the sensation and in essence such sensation is non dual. it can only occur during certain circumstances thus making it conditioned. and it is constantly changing thus asserting its emptiness.
so its this fun balance between nothing and everything. arising and falling.
Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water.
The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken.
Although its light is wide and great,
The moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide.
The whole moon and the entire sky
Are reflected in one dewdrop on the grass.
Dogen
You are taking things to a level that basically states there is no path whatsoever, which is not what the Buddha taught. There is Dukkha. There is a cause of Dukkha. There is the cessation of Dukkha. There is a pth leading to the cessation of Dukkha. This is what the Buddha taught.
Get to know your real self.
It has no form, no appearance,
No root, no basis, no abode,
But is lively and buoyant.
It responds with versatile facility,
But its function cannot be located.
Therefore when you look for it,
You become further from it;
When you seek it,
You turn away from it all the more.
- Linji
such acceptance is unconditional.
it's not that there is no path, as there are many paths proposed by many buddhas.
the path only brings us back to what we already inherently are.
practice and study are utmost in importance as they are guides to realization. if you can realize without a path or guide, more power to you.
such acceptance is unconditional."
This refers to the condition of avidya. Not recognizing suffering. Ignorance.
If the consciousness were not empty you would never recognize suffering. Vidya is the quality of mind that comes back. When you meditate and get caught up in a dream that is not wrong. If that didn't happen the meditation would not work. When you stop beating yourself for drifting off you notice the emptiness which is the quality of mind to come back to awareness.
We can be in some emotional pain and not admitting it. Spinning off and creating more and more negative karma. We are afraid and are trying to control things to stop the karma but it is like we have our hands on fire and are just spreading the fire to our belongings and loved ones.
It is not under our control. By trusting the nature of mind the quality shines forth from the clouds to come back to awareness and recognize suffering.
And transform it.
did Shakyamuni ever proposed that consciousness or mind was empty?
Nagarjuna may have been a nihilist.
it's very subtle language. nagarjuna strictly said that to make emptiness into a philosophical stance or to mistake it for some
naive nihilism would be to take a shit on the buddhas.
emptiness is what is. it isn't a claim or assertion. when you negate everything you come at the lack of what you previously thought was there. everything is still there it is just empty.
I can recommend the book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Gyamptso Tsultrim Rinpoche. I am not sure if it will have the citations you need to check scripture.
But it would explain to you five views on emptiness which would expand your horizons if nothing better let you see different views.
Shakyamuni never proposed Shunyata as a central concept,
Nagarjuna and later thinkers tought that Shunyata was a logical conclusion of what Shakyamuni taught.
however, in my opinion this does not follow.
emptyness is just one of the arupa-jhanas.
The kalama sutra says to examine your own experience. So it doesn't matter what shakyamuni said. He may have said many different things to many different people. We don't know. We have only what is recorded.
More important than 1000 ideas which you understand but do not help you is one idea which you understand and helps you. Therefore if shunyata does not help you then you should abandon it.
That is the basis rather than if it is in a scripture.
grab a cup and throw it on the ground. where is your cup now hahahahah.
body = water, earth, sun.
mental formations need consciousness. everything exists interdependently.
Ok you didn't say that but this is where we diverged to emptiness.. DO is the flip side of emptiness. DO is how things are. Emptiness is how they are not.
Two sides of the same coin. But just a view. No big deal. A view doesn't change one hair on your head. The earth is good.
it is not an ultimate realization, it is not a fast path to nirvana... it is just a concept and a type of meditation.
One way of understanding emptiness is that it is to see that your thoughts are just thoughts and not get caught up in them.
So it isn't a method COME BACK TO THE BREATH...
its not like that it is more organic..
It is more like EUREKA I am dreaming! Welcome back
meaning emptiness is something to be realized, not philosophized. things change thus they are empty. things are also interconnected thus they are empty.
nirvana can only be realized when such non dual emptiness is realized. when someone is abiding in such emptiness via mindfulness, one can see that nirvana is merely the natural state and that samsara is merely the nature state. thus through mindfulness there is automatic release from clinging to nirvana/samsara.
emptiness is the heart of buddhism.
I am kind of a kid so this is how I can understand.
If you just have the concept there is no nirvana. That is the problem. Just keep examining your experience in meditation. See if its true THOU SHALT BE ON THE BREATH I AM THE VOICE OF LORDLY JUDGEMENT WHO SHALT GRANT NIRVANA....THOU SHALT BE ON THE BREATH or 'oh here i am i am back
The concept is relational conditional understanding. Samsara as usual stamped by dukkha.
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.
Do not try to become anything. Do no make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.
Why not give it a try? Do you dare?" - Achaan Chah from "A Still Forest Pool".
the point is to realize the non dual reality, which in essence is emptiness.
or if you want to frame it another way: impermanence (anicca); suffering or unsatisfactoriness (dukkha); non-self (anattā).