Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Karma and Rebirth.
Chiisai_Pholcidae68
Explorer
I am not a Buddhist yet. I am just like a little chick pecking at pieces of information about Buddhism and steadily applying them to my life.
Thus, I do not understand rebirth well. I must admit that it is probably because I haven't been studying it, but seeing as newbuddhist.com provides its beginners with concise and personal answers, it wouldn't hurt to begin here.
Karma is cause. Is, say, an animal the manifestation of the effects of one's actions?
Thus, I do not understand rebirth well. I must admit that it is probably because I haven't been studying it, but seeing as newbuddhist.com provides its beginners with concise and personal answers, it wouldn't hurt to begin here.
Karma is cause. Is, say, an animal the manifestation of the effects of one's actions?
0
Comments
But anyways, welcome to the forum.
Either way, it is still a peripheral issue: the core of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths.
If you don't understand karma and rebirth, that's OK-- it took me a long time before I could even begin to wrap my head around it. For someone new to Buddhism, I'd suggest putting rebirth on the back burner and focus on the really important stuff, like the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path.
so those who crave and crave hard can be called hungry ghosts. those who are ignorant and only strive to survive are like animals. those who are like the gods enjoy a life of comfort and wellbeingness but lack the motivation to study the dharma thus they never free themselves totally.
get what i am getting it?
rebirth is the metaphor and karma is the causation that is refering to the state of mind.
buddhism is pointing to the ceasation of rebirth by cultivating the right karma.
just my humble opinion.
And the more I study Buddhism, the more I'm coming round to thinking there's actually something in rebirth.
The doctrine of Dependant Arising and my current study of the mind from a Buddhist perspective helps me gain some faith in rebirth; but to understand why, you need to study both subjects and investigate them for yourself. Is the mind separate from brain? What are the properties of mind? What are the causes of mind? That sort of thing. And dependant arising explains that when you plant an apple seed, you get an apple tree; not an orange tree. You get a result similar to the cause.
Now can matter produce a mind that experiences? We can produce a computer 'brain'; but that's not aware. And the main cause for consciousness is a previous moment of consciousness (sounds obvious; but think about it).
So, if after study, contemplation and meditation that you conclude that mind is separate from brain, that matter cannot produce consciousness, and that the main cause of consciousness is a previous moment of consciousness; then these things may point to rebirth.
It's still a bit confused in my own mind; but what I'm trying to point out is that you can reach some sort of conclusion about rebirth without relying on blind faith; there are ways to investigate, contemplate and meditate on this subject.
I also think a belief in rebirth may help with motivation to practise; and motivation is also a big topic in Buddhism.
Just a few thoughts; apologies for not taking the time to present them a little more clearly.
Karma is simply cause and effect: it's not universal justice, or getting what you deserve, its just a dispassionate force, like gravity. You fall off a cliff, you're going to keep going until you hit the bottom: gravity doesn't care if you're really a good person or not. Same as karma (kamma): the results of your actions, good or bad, happen because that is the moral law of the universe. A bad action sows a bad seed, a good action sows a good seed (although ultimately the words 'good' and 'bad' are simply based on ones perspective, which can change).
The way I understand Rebirth, karma does not cease when our body ceases, but continues on, like ripples in a pond. Long after I am gone, the things I have done, good and bad, will continue to produce ripples. It makes sense to me to believe that this karma is the seed that causes my next rebirth. I am not sure it is reincarnation, in the traditional sense, but in some way, the causes and conditions of this life will lead to the next. As the analogy goes, like lighting one candle with another. Each flame is unique, but 'caused' by the previous flame, like links in a chain.
And if you think my understanding of karma is a bit dismal, that karma sounds like a trap, that's because it is. Buddhist practice is a way to escape that trap, to transcend it and no longer be bound by the rigid laws of karma, cause and effect.
My understanding is evolving, but that is my position currently.
Buddha taught. Sadhu.
the relationship between action and karma is important. The central
teaching the Buddha gave concerning karma is that our
actions are consequential, and that it’s possible to act in ways that
lead to beneficial consequences. This teaching is based on the
understanding that we can know and choose which actions to
engage in and which to refrain from in order to achieve peace and
well being, and to avoid suffering. Rather than emphasizing past
and future lives, as people often do when discussing karma, the
Buddha’s teachings point to the importance of the present
moment as the only time we can take responsibility for, and train
in, the actions that bring freedom.
Because of the important role of karma, the Buddha emphasized
being mindful of what we do rather than what we are—and
here, we can think of ‘doing’ as encompassing mental activities as
well as external actions."
Not believing in rebirth is like learning math but refuse to believe "1+1 = 2".
The importance of believing in rebirth is emphosis that our actions causes consequences, MORE IMPORTANTLY, it causes consequences that we do not see straight away.
It also removes our tendencies to complain about bad luck, fate, unfair god, and other people or our environment to cause us suffering.
That said, I do agree that rebirth can be a useful teaching. Being open to teachings on rebirth, for example, has the potential to lead to skillful actions. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains in "Faith in Awakening": But in the end, I don't think it really matters which view of rebirth one holds, if any, because the actual practice is still the same. What truly matters is what one does with the teachings, not what one believes about them. That's why I think the Buddha likened his teachings to a raft in MN 22:
One of the problems I see is that lots of people on this forum see karma as your own state of mind, rather than anything else. And it seems to be that that's a problem if you believe that karma determines the status of rebirth.
Obviously, this concept is not solid. But, rebirth is very possible.
That being said, Ada_B's comment is pretty much close to the mark. Kamma and rebirth are connected principles. So long as beings are obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving, they will be prompted to endeavor volitional actions (kamma), which will eventually bear fruit (vipaka). This is mentioned in the second Noble Truth, which states that craving "leads to further becoming, accompanied by delight and passion, relishing now here and there; that is, (the Three Fires of) craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for extermination."
Basically, it is kamma-vipaka which perpetuates the cyclic existence of life and death called Samsara. There are even various instances within the suttas in which fully enlightened monks had to experience the fruition of their past kamma (such as Maha-Moggallana). Also, although further becoming or "rebirth" is a continuing process which seems to last for an inconceivably long time, there is an end to the process. When Nibbana is attained, there is no more future becoming.
Buddha tells Ananda in the Bhava Sutta (AN 3.76), that "kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower property (sense-sphere), middling property (form-sphere), or refined property (formless-sphere). Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future."
There is another important sutta on this subject called the Apannaka Sutta (MN 60), which is also called the "Safe Bet Sutta". Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction summarizes it as follows: "The Buddha's main pragmatic argument is that if one accepted his teachings, one would be likely to pay careful attention to one's actions, so as to do no harm. This in and of itself is a worthy activity regardless of whether the rest of the path was true. When applying this argument to the issue of rebirth and karmic results, the Buddha sometimes coupled it with a second pragmatic argument that resembles Pascal's wager: If one practices the Dhamma, one leads a blameless life in the here-and-now. Even if the afterlife and karmic results do not exist, one has not lost the wager, for the blamelessness of one's life is a reward in and of itself. If there is an afterlife with karmic results, then one has won a double reward: the blamelessness of one's life here and now, and the good rewards of one's actions in the afterlife. These two pragmatic arguments form the central message of this sutta."
So, according to this sutta, whether or not there is rebirth doesn't really matter so long as one practices the Dhamma - for its rewards can be known right here and now.
This really comes to one making more excuses to monitor one's behaviour... what next? One has to follow the precepts with more diligence?
By the way, I don't follow the Pali Canon or the Suttas.
You either accept Buddhism as it is or you dont.
Literal rebirth is an integral part of Buddha's teaching.
You can reject it.
But please do not say it is an optional part of Buddhism.
One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."
"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."
If such natural compassion exists for a stranger then with correct view we can take care of everyone because everyone is a stranger.
Rebirth is constantly occuring. There is no birth, old age and sickness and there no is no end to birth, old age and sickness. Such is bodhisattvas path towards awakening. Every moment is a different moment. This is what rebirth is point to. The buddha freed himself by seeing reality as it is. If one doesn't cling to mind then what use is it to cling to space? There is only the stranger. Shower everything with love!
Another advantage on believing in rebirth is to remove our hatred for the rich and jealousy for the more fortunate. Because we realise that nothing is controlled by luck or unfair fate or mis-placed fortune. Everyone's place of birth and their "natural" ability are dictated by their actions in the past. Hence we all deserve what we get.
Have you ever thought where your Buddhism come from?
Buddhism comes from the pali canon.
All 3 buddhist schools accept the pali canon as buddha's
teachings.
No pali canon, no buddhism.