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We Love War (USA Thread)
MindGate
United States Veteran
Involves mild language. Reader discretion is advised:
It seems as though my anti-war views are not very common. If I even mention the fact that I think the war in Iraq did more harm than good (yah know, like the 100,000 civilian deaths and the billions of dollars spent and American lives lost on this 10 year war), I get teared a new asshole by someone. They always say, "THE SOLDIERS FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THAT STUPID SHIT."
What? No they don't. Soldiers that are fighting in these wars over in the Middle East are not fighting for our rights. They are fighting for something else, and for a country other than the America that the founding fathers envisioned. They are fighting for the greed of a small group of wealthy, old men. They are fighting for a corrupt system. They are fighting for an America that is no longer free. They are victims of our country, the very same one they thought they were fighting to defend. They aren't fighting for my rights to say that I don't believe they are fighting for my rights. They are fighting for America's ulterior motives.
But, this view is not very common. Am I wrong? I'm young and just recently got into politics (of course, left wing). So, am I wrong.... or... what?
It seems as though my anti-war views are not very common. If I even mention the fact that I think the war in Iraq did more harm than good (yah know, like the 100,000 civilian deaths and the billions of dollars spent and American lives lost on this 10 year war), I get teared a new asshole by someone. They always say, "THE SOLDIERS FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THAT STUPID SHIT."
What? No they don't. Soldiers that are fighting in these wars over in the Middle East are not fighting for our rights. They are fighting for something else, and for a country other than the America that the founding fathers envisioned. They are fighting for the greed of a small group of wealthy, old men. They are fighting for a corrupt system. They are fighting for an America that is no longer free. They are victims of our country, the very same one they thought they were fighting to defend. They aren't fighting for my rights to say that I don't believe they are fighting for my rights. They are fighting for America's ulterior motives.
But, this view is not very common. Am I wrong? I'm young and just recently got into politics (of course, left wing). So, am I wrong.... or... what?
0
Comments
These mist covered mountains
Are a home now for me
But my home is the lowlands
And always will be
Some day you'll return to
Your valleys and your farms
And you'll no longer burn
To be brothers in arms
Through these fields of destruction
Baptisms of fire
I've witnessed your suffering
As the battles raged higher
And though they hurt me so bad
In the fear and alarm
You did not desert me
My brothers in arms
There's so many different words
So many different songs
We have just one world
But we live in different ones
Now the sun's gone to hill
And the moon's riding high
Let me bid you farewell
Every man has to die
But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
We're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, –
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
~ Wilfred Owen (1893-1918)
NOTE: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori = "It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country." (Horace)
I've a bit of a 'thing' for Joannie!
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
Country Joe And The Fish
Next Stop Is Vietnam Or What Are We Fighting For
Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
But just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
etc
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you can go out and get those reds
'Cause the only good commie is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
etc.
Come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, and don't hesitate
To send your sons off before it's too late.
And you can be the first ones in your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
etc
I feel your pain. My closest friend is now 'conservative' and the other day we were talking about Falluja. He said, Falluja is the one thing I agreed with in Iraq because they dropped flyers two weeks in advance telling civilians to leave. See, to him, for some fucked up reason, that makes his idea of what happened in Falluja fine, justified. I would say confidently its bassically the same thing as if I called up his mother and told her to leave her city in two weeks or I will hunt her down and kill her. It's actually much worse. In fact, They didn't tell everyone to leave, the told women and children to leave, blocked the roads, and forced the men to stay. Then they used - illegally - chemical weapons. My friend said it probably falls within international law because they told them to leave. It actually would probably mean that whoever gave the orders to do these things would be executed.
Chomsky says what's more scary to him than the occassial Hitler or Mao or Pol Pot, is that sane, reasonable people are OK with genocide. Imma have to agree with him on taht one.
Do I support the troops? No way in hell. I don't support the ideals that send them there, I don't support the leaders that blithely go along with anything those above them say. I don't support any of it. I respect the individuals as human beings, but that's about as far as my respect for any of it goes. It makes me sick that our soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen are now "warriors". Makes it sound like we live in Sparta, where the military was the state and the state was the military (which it basically is). It makes me sick that corporations like Blackwater, Lockheed-Martin, and a host of others have made trillions of dollars in profit off of the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other places. Sure, there are bad people in the world. But that fact doesn't give the US carte blanche to commit mass murder. As far as I'm concerned, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and about a dozen others should be arrested and transported to the ICC in the Hague to be tried for crimes against humanity.
Call me a Liberal (but capitalize it please...)
"They are fighting for a corrupt system" Greed is human nature, you will find some level of corruption in any government, but a democratic society is generally less corrupt than a dictatorship... agree?
"Then they used - illegally - chemical weapons" I read about this... right along with the 9/11 conspiracy stuff... same Liberal anti government poison BS
"Do I support the troops? No way in hell" What a shame IMHO
Am I a war lover? no... do I feel we are too eager to flex our militay muscle? yes... But to support lies in an effort to protest your country's call to go to war is not anymore moral than joining the fight.
To not support the humans who believe that they are are fighting for a good reason, to save lives of other humans, to provide others with the religious freedoms we have, is siding with the humans who believe it is OK to kill thousands of who the dictator feel are a threat, to lay waste to neighboring cuntries in the name of oil, and not participate in a global action to insure WMD are not being produced/used, as they were at the end Desert Storm on villagers protesting or fleeing.
Did you know your life would be in serious risk for practicing Buddhism in many of the Islamic states? And you call the US corrupt and not free?
I do feel our freedoms are being restricted and I don't like it, but if you look at things in perspective to what the world is experiencing, I feel a bit better. Some of the recent things bothering me though is the Liberal push in San Francisco outlawing toys in kids meals, and attempting to make it illegal to have a goldfish ina bowl or to practice circumcision. I don't enjoy being told how to live.
"No, even democratic societies can be very corrupted. Even the Roman Republic" Then who should dictate over us then?
"US has been use White Phosphorous illegally in Iraq for sometime" Not true
"The troops, including my father are tools and they volunteered to support and fight for American Imperialism" You are not qualified to dictate why I volunteered
"What lies? We entered to a war under a lie" I disagree with your opinion
"Do you believe the USA has a right to go in and install democracy by force? Replace governments that are loyal to the United States? In the name of Freedom?" Are you implying that Iraq was loyal to the US? Really?
"If you don't like being told how to live. Why are you Buddhist? We have been taught on how to live in the way of the Buddha's philosophies. Having compassion, do not kill, and love our enemies" Learning about Buddhism was my choice... I was not forced. I do love everyone, and have never killed anyone... and I take great strides to be a honest person
Those corporations don't even care about their "own" kids, much less those of other nations'.
:thumbup: for everything you said.
Why all the USA hatred? If you are going to condemn a country, might I offer you Iran... they still kill over religion, politics and sexual orientation.
My apologies to those who was riled over my rebutals.
Practice Tolerance ought to be part of a Buddhist mantra - esp on this forum.
@mountains
Wow. I was thinking about comparing the USA to Sparta when I was writing the OP too. lol Be quiet, Vinlyn.
*nods*
and I will concede that it is just my own perception that your post was blind politcal bashing provided innocently with consideration to your ultra Liberal views.
being English, I never quite understood why USA loves to get involved in wars, but now I almost do. But anyhow, the US has trillions in debt, yet they still spend X amount of dollars on fighting.
The fact that guns are legal there still seems wrong to me, yes it was something founded way back at the beginning of the countries birth, but people grasp at it so much that they find many exscuses to state that guns should be allowed. What is the purpose of a gun?
Furthermore, USA has the death penalty in some states, yet has the highest homicide ratio in the world....
Wars have gone on since mankind has existed and they will continue to do so, if everyone followed their religion to the book, and the atheists did not desire then there would be no wars.
My dad carries one because occasionally he works in scary neighborhoods and cities. He has all his proper permits and such. You never know when you need a gun in places like these, and having one on you is a good deterrent as well. If someone sees it on you, chances are they won't try to mug you.
A lot of people I know also hunt (whether it be for food or to hunt).
I have one because its fun to shoot. I'd never go hunting, but its nice to have a gun anyways.
Maybe its just because I was raised in the USA (and a state that particularly likes hunting), but I see nothing wrong with a gun as long as its in the right hands and for the right purposes.
You really gave out some great responses.
We annex the Kingdom of Hawaii to protect the sugar plantations to it's white owners from the native Hawaiians.
From the late 1890s-1930s, the United States enganged in wars in latin America to protect it's economic intrests and United Fruit Company's interets.
I find it intresting that after the invasion of Iraq. Vice President Cheny's companies got no-bid contracts.
Here are some great documentaries to watch:
Iraq for Sale
Why We Fight
The Republic should be dicated by the people. Not by long term politicans and corperations.
Also the United States of America should be obeying it's treaties it has signed with the UN. Not to obey them when it's convenet for them.
“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”
~Karl Marx
USA used White phosphorous as a incendiary weapon which is viewed as illegal. WP is suppose to be used as a obscurant. Since the United States is a superpower. It can almost do anything it wants. Not qualified? Where does it say I must have qualifications? I don't know your reasons why you voluteered, but it doesn't change the fact that your are just a tool in a big game of global dominance. Bush told us that Saddam has links with Osama Bin Laden. LIE
Bush told us that Saddam has chemical & biological weapons. LIE
Bush told us that Saddam is a threat to the United States. LIE
Saddam and Usama Bin Laden were never allies or could be allies. Those two are too ideological different to join sides. Saddam viewed Usama a threat and so did Usama Bin Laden to Saddam. Saddam had NO chemical or biological weapons left after nearly 10 years of weapon inspectors. Even UN weapon inspectors said Bush was wrong. Bush and companies exadriated the WMD & threat claims to justifiy American power and economic expansion.
Just recently Talabian conducted a surprise attack on the capital itself by attacking the US Embassy and NATO HQ.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8759579/Kabul-US-embassy-attack-September-13-as-it-happened.html
I believe you, but I kinda hard since you support US wars of agression. Stuff that America has done has really hurt our community Karma and caused so much suffering on this planet.
There is an estimated 73,530 – 1,173,600 casualties since 9/11 (Civilian, military, and insurgents). Was those numbers worth it to avenge the 3,000 who died on 9/11?
I could quote all your responses with a counter, but that would not settle anything, you would not agree with me, and I would not agree with you, so there is no point... BTW, none of the "facts" you stated are really facts, just far lefty propaganda.
I must respond to one of your quotes though... "I believe you, but I kinda hard since you support US wars of agression. Stuff that America has done has really hurt our community Karma and caused so much suffering on this planet" I never stated that I supported US wars... I support our troops who are in harms way... I don't know the intentions of each and every service member, but I do personally know that many of of them have very honorable intentions, not resembling in the least the horrible corrupt ideas that I see posted here... let me also point out that I don't consider myself a Conservative either... I'm actually split on much of the Right vs Left issues, but I understand why I look "Right" in the thread since the middle would look very "Right" amongst this far left crowd.
Oh, and on the Karma remark... is there such a thing as "Community Karma?" I don't think so... it's all personal and individual, based on our individual intentions, not by the perceived judgement of others... especially the USA haters
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20241
US War Crimes: Cancer Rate in Fallujah Worse than Hiroshima
The Iraqi city of Fallujah continues to suffer the ghastly consequences of a US military onslaught in late 2004.
According to the authors of a new study, “Cancer, Infant Mortality and Birth Sex-Ratio in Fallujah, Iraq 2005–2009,” the people of Fallujah are experiencing higher rates of cancer, leukemia, infant mortality, and sexual mutations than those recorded among survivors in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the years after those Japanese cities were incinerated by US atomic bomb strikes in 1945.
The epidemiological study, published in the International Journal of Environmental Studies and Public Health (IJERPH), also finds the prevalence of these conditions in Fallujah to be many times greater than in nearby nations.
The assault on Fallujah, a city located 43 miles west of Baghdad, was one of the most horrific war crimes of our time. After the population resisted the US-led occupation of Iraq—a war of neo-colonial plunder launched on the basis of lies—Washington determined to make an example of the largely Sunni city. This is called “exemplary” or “collective” punishment and is, according to the laws of war, illegal.
The new public health study of the city now all but proves what has long been suspected: that a high proportion of the weaponry used in the assault contained depleted uranium, a radioactive substance used in shells to increase their effectiveness.</b)
This guy was there and he shares your view more strongly. And he was the one who was supposed to be fighting for your freedom. So if someone says "THE SOLDIERS FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THAT STUPID SHIT.", he has problems, he/she is a bad person..
You're not crazy, a majority of the world's population opposite the war fromt he beggining.
The United States spends only 0.080 percent of the federal budget or $2.28 billion on the altruism of foreign aid. Compared to other modern industrialized countries, the sacrifice the United States makes in disbursement of foreign aid is small.
How does the actual amount of foreign aid equate to what people believes should be allocated to foreign aid?
The median amount found in one poll indicate people believe 10 percent should be spent on foreign aid. That is more than 100 times the amount the united States spends and almost 10 times the entire Federal International Affairs Budget.
"
Muslims are forbidden to convert from Islam to another religion. Certain Muslim-majority countries are known for their restrictions on religious freedom, highly favoring Muslim citizens over non-Muslim citizens.Some Muslims support the practice of executing apostates who leave Islam, as in Bukhari:V4 B52 N260; "The Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'"
In Iran, the constitution recognizes four religions whose status is formally protected: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The constitution, however, also set the groundwork for the institutionalized persecution of Bahá'ís, who have been subjected to arrests, beatings, executions, confiscation and destruction of property, and the denial of civil rights and liberties, and the denial of access to higher education. There is no freedom of conscience in Iran, as converting from Islam to any other religion is forbidden.
In Egypt, a 16 December 2006 judgment of the Supreme Administrative Council created a clear demarcation between recognized religions — Islam, Christianity and Judaism — and all other religious beliefs; no other religious affiliation is officially admissible. The ruling leaves members of other religious communities, including Bahá'ís, without the ability to obtain the necessary government documents to have rights in their country, essentially denying them of all rights of citizenship. They cannot obtain ID cards, birth certificates, death certificates, marriage or divorce certificates, and passports; they also cannot be employed, educated, treated in public hospitals or vote, among other things.
This isn't life 1,000 or 100 years ago, this is reality in our world today.
September 29, 2000 - Present
124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,463 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)
Israelis and Palestinians Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present
Chart showing that 6 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
1,084 Israelis and at least 6,430 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)
Israelis and Palestinians Injured
September 29, 2000 - Present
9,226 Israelis and 45,041 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information.)
Chart showing that Palestinians are injured at least four times more often than Israelis.
Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2011
Chart showing that the United States gives Israel $8.2 million per day in military aid and no military aid to the Palestinians.
During Fiscal Year 2011, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.2 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians. (View Sources & More Information)
Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees
Chart showing that Israel is holding over 7000 Palestinians prisoner.
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,554 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)
Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished, compared to no Israeli homes.
Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.
The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.5% and 40% in Gaza. (View Sources & More Information)
Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land
Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that Israel has 227 Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian land.
So you
Thanks for the Tankian vid!! Always loved the song, never saw the vid till now, pretty trippy.
Now as to all the dead people "over there" nobody "here" gives a damn (I am talking the majority of people) Why? Because human beings, when you get right down to it are animals. And those animals "over there" are part of another social group, one we are in conflict with. They threaten our ideas, our very social frabric, that which dictates "us." Their ideas are in competition with us. Were on top, sort of, and they want a piece of the pie, to spread their ideas and to enlarge their group. We want to do the same and will continue to do so because we are instinctual, socially driven (for the good of our own) creatures. It's about us and our memes. The same can be said about any other social organism. That's it. Nothing altruistic about it. We will cut your throat and not think twice about it. So will they. This is not to say that humans don't have a great potential to be altruistic, loving or compassionate but our very evolution makes the worst in us come out very easily. It takes time and work to understand our nature and to overcome our idea that we are the center of the universe. I would hope for humanity that we will evolve with greater tendencies towards altruism, it can be a very benificial trait. The majority of the world is not there or even comtemplating along these lines. If you take a rat from it's group, clean it, put the smell of another group on it and return it to it's home, it's former friends and relatives will tear it to pieces because it's become one of "them"
All the best,
Todd