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The Buddha didnt just believe in rebirth he argued for it.
Its exactly becos you are not 100% sure, that you rely on faith. If you are 100% sure, you dont need faith. You said that faith means believing in something with little evidence. That's your own definition. So, how much evidence is little evidence? and how much evidence is sufficient evidence to qualify as non-faith?
Nothing in this world is 100% certain. You just choose to accept by faith those things which you are familiar and comfortable with.
Faith does not mean little evidence. It means believing in something without proof.
My personal opinion is that belief in rebirth is irrelevant. People often cling to their belief in rebirth and desire to be reborn. There is no eternal self and desiring to be reborn is similar to a christian who desires to go to heaven. Desiring any sort of "afterlife" is the sort of clinging that we, as buddhists, desire to eliminate from our lives at least to a certain extent.
A belief in rebirth is a personal issue, just try to eliminate your desire to be reborn and accept that there is no eternal self. "You" will not survive death even if rebirth is true.
My personal opinion is that belief in rebirth is irrelevant. People often cling to their belief in rebirth and desire to be reborn. There is no eternal self and desiring to be reborn is similar to a christian who desires to go to heaven. Desiring any sort of "afterlife" is the sort of clinging that we, as buddhists, desire to eliminate from our lives at least to a certain extent.
A belief in rebirth is a personal issue, just try to eliminate your desire to be reborn and accept that there is no eternal self. "You" will not survive death even if rebirth is true.
Just a short note on @tjampel his/her reasons for not rejecting the idea of rebirth.
If I understand correctly there are three reasons, and I hope I don’t offend when I put them in my own words: - the idea fits logically into the rest of the teaching - the Buddha appears to be right on a lot of things - there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence from people with some authority
One could very well argue that rebirth does not mix very well with the idea of anatta. From moment to moment, this body and mind change and are without “self”. No problem. But it is a huge leap to assume that something (and what exactly?) is going to be teleported to another body after death.
The Buddha can be right about a lot of things and be wrong about others. That’s in fact almost certain. He was human after all and a child of his time. You can’t expect a person who lived 2,5 mio years ago to understand and incorporate everything we learned about life and the universe since then.
The anecdotal evidence is not very good in spite of the integrity of the people involved. The people you mentioned, dedicated their lives to the ideas of Buddhism. They gave up everything. The lived in a cave for god sake and meditated for many many years. I’m telling you that will turn a person biased. Just imagine they would find out -when they’re old and their lives are practically over - that it had all been in vain? That’s not going to happen. Their memories of previous lives are essential for justifying everything they stood for all of their lives. Their confirmation bias is as big as confirmation bias can get.
I always find it laughable when adults (most often male) with no experience whatsoever of conceiving, birthing, raising, listening to and observing young children, nor enjoying the trust and confidences shared by young children, write off young children as "blank slates" and rebirth as a matter of faith or delusion. They say they have no scientific proof of rebirth.
It never seems to occur to them that between their fear, arrogance, and ignorance of children that perhaps they do not deserve any proof, for truly they lack sufficient maturity to be capable of respectful communication with children and of actually hearing and respecting the truths shared by them. A pity.
There are people who approach the spiritual through the power of faith, and people who approach the spiritual through the power of doubt. There is a Buddhist approach to the Dharma for everyone.
Its such a fun and tricky thing when people hold beliefs so tightly that they convince themselves that they matter. I don't like the topic of rebirth, personally, because it gets people looking elsewhere... into the future or past.
If you believe in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "How is it carried? What is reborn?" to get a glimpse into anatta.
If you don't believe in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "How did it come? Where does it go?" and find anicca.
If you neither believe or disbelieve in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "What does investing belief in an imponderable paradigm bring in the moment?" and find dukkha.
I always find it laughable when adults (most often male) with no experience whatsoever of conceiving, birthing, raising, listening to and observing young children, nor enjoying the trust and confidences shared by young children, write off young children as "blank slates" and rebirth as a matter of faith or delusion. They say they have no scientific proof of rebirth.
It never seems to occur to them that between their fear, arrogance, and ignorance of children that perhaps they do not deserve any proof, for truly they lack sufficient maturity to be capable of respectful communication with children and of actually hearing and respecting the truths shared by them. A pity.
Just a short note on @tjampel his/her reasons for not rejecting the idea of rebirth.
If I understand correctly there are three reasons, and I hope I don’t offend when I put them in my own words: - the idea fits logically into the rest of the teaching - the Buddha appears to be right on a lot of things - there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence from people with some authority
One could very well argue that rebirth does not mix very well with the idea of anatta. From moment to moment, this body and mind change and are without “self”. No problem. But it is a huge leap to assume that something (and what exactly?) is going to be teleported to another body after death.
The Buddha can be right about a lot of things and be wrong about others. That’s in fact almost certain. He was human after all and a child of his time. You can’t expect a person who lived 2,5 mio years ago to understand and incorporate everything we learned about life and the universe since then.
The anecdotal evidence is not very good in spite of the integrity of the people involved. The people you mentioned, dedicated their lives to the ideas of Buddhism. They gave up everything. The lived in a cave for god sake and meditated for many many years. I’m telling you that will turn a person biased. Just imagine they would find out -when they’re old and their lives are practically over - that it had all been in vain? That’s not going to happen. Their memories of previous lives are essential for justifying everything they stood for all of their lives. Their confirmation bias is as big as confirmation bias can get.
I agree with all that you've said except for one thing. I view the anecdotal evidence as stronger than you do. I would have to assume that there is an active lying campaign or conspiracy to dismiss many of the other stories I've read. That may be so; but the people involved are believed to be reliable. For example, where someone writes down the name of their next birth parents and the address and 4 years later a boy born several months after the death, at that same location, and to the named parents is able to correctly select 10 of 10 implements previously used by the dead lama (given a choice of 2 in each trial) if properly conducted). That has happened at various times in the Kagyu tradition (which is not mine, btw). I don't necessarily believe these things and these are not controlled experiments by any means; I'd be foolish to accuse the people involved of rigging them, however; agreed?
As for the Thai forest Wat monks if you say Ajahn Sao and Ajahm Mun were both failures in their spiritual career then it may become very tough to point to anyone who was successful to hold up as a model. How do you show that someone was enlightened; it's impossible; it's an internal state free of suffering. The two monks I've mentioned are said by followers to have been arahants. That doesn't make it so, but it doesn't mean they were failures looking to justify their lives. In fact that would be out of keeping with how they both had lived their lives. For example, Ajahn Sao never spoke of his rebirths with anyone except his closest student, Ajahan Mun, as far as I know; and the reason he communicated this was because of his reticence to speak in public; he rarely spoke for more than a few minutes in public and his explanation to Ajahn Mun had to do with a previous life.
He didn't say that to his followers. To his followers, he said just the opposite.
Prove it to me.
Is it wrong for me not to be so open minded that me brain will not fall out?
"When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and quite well established, And good behaviour built on morality, Liked by the Noble Ones and praised! When one has confidence in the Sangha, And a view straight and clear! Then they say, that one is not poor, That one's life is not wasted... Therefore should any intelligent person, aware of the Buddha-Dhamma, be devoted to the fine faith & moral purity, which gives confirmed conviction in this safe saving Dhamma." SN V 405
===== Alavaka once asked the Blessed Buddha: What wealth here is best for any man? What well practiced brings happiness? What is the sweetest of all the flavours? How is this life best lived?
The Buddha: Faith is the best wealth here for any human! Dhamma well practiced brings happiness! Nothing is sweeter than truth. A wise life lived in understanding is best...
Alavaka: How does one cross the flood of ills? How is the ocean of existence crossed? How is all suffering stilled? How is one purified?
The Buddha: By Faith is the flood of evil crossed! By attention is this existence crossed! By effort is all suffering stilled! By wisdom one is finally purified! Sn 182-184
=====
Suffering is the cause of Faith... Elated Joy is the effect of Faith... Entrance is the function of Faith... Trusting is the characteristic of Faith... Decisiveness is the manifestation of Faith... Faith is the Hand, that lifts one out of Suffering... Faith is the Seed, that makes one grow much good Future... Faith is the Real Wealth, since it produces the best Advantage... Vism XIV 140
=====
Bhikkhus, when a Noble Disciple possesses 4 things, then he is said to be rich, with much wealth and prosperous property. What four? Here, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple possesses the faith of confirmed confidence in the Supreme Buddha ... in the Perfect Dhamma ... and in the Noble Sangha.... He possesses the moral purity that is praised by the Noble Ones, unbroken ... unspotted ... untorn ... pure ... intact ... leading to absorbed concentration.... Any Noble Disciple, who possesses these 4 things is indeed really quite rich, with much heavy wealth and a lush and vast property.... SN V 402
=====
What and How is the Power of Faith?
It is not shaken by sceptical non-faith, thus is it the Power of Faith. It is the Power of Faith by stiffening & stabilizing other qualities. It is the Power of Faith by terminating the bad mental defilements. It is the Power of Faith by purifying penetration to understanding. It is the Power of Faith by calming, steadying & focusing the mind. It is the Power of Faith by clearing, cleansing & purifying the mind. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of arrival at subtle distinction. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of penetration to even higher. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of convergence upon actuality. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of establishing in cessation! This and so is the Power of Faith... The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. XIX.
=====
No, it is not wrong to be so open minded that the brain will not fall out. However, having faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha does not cause your brain to fall out. It causes you to be closer to Buddha, closer to enlightenment, closer to the end of suffering.
Its exactly becos you are not 100% sure, that you rely on faith. If you are 100% sure, you dont need faith. You said that faith means believing in something with little evidence. That's your own definition. So, how much evidence is little evidence? and how much evidence is sufficient evidence to qualify as non-faith?
Nothing in this world is 100% certain. You just choose to accept by faith those things which you are familiar and comfortable with.
Faith does not mean little evidence. It means believing in something without proof.
Does rebirth have evidence that can be subject to science?
That is a judeo-christian view and definition of faith, not a Buddhist one. Until you get rid of the judeo-christian view of faith, you will never understand the Buddhist concept of faith.
There are people who approach the spiritual through the power of faith, and people who approach the spiritual through the power of doubt. There is a Buddhist approach to the Dharma for everyone. The Dharma gates are endless.
Spiritual beliefs and concerns do not really enter into it at all. Buddhism is about mindful observation. Science is likewise about mindful observation. If one wishes to determine if children are born as blank slates or with issues indicating the rebirth of a consciousness, one need only mindfully observe a great many children with whom one has a mutually trusting and respectful relationship. Everything else is pointless conjecture and speculation.
Having observed a great many children from such a position, I've seen plenty of evidence of rebirth.
@tjampel I suppose some stories are difficult do dismiss and I agree that deliberate fraud is not the most likely explanation. As an overall skeptic I would have to suppose people imagining things or people exaggerating the facts, but that’s not something I can substantiate.
@aura Observation is a good way of settling things. But I wouldn’t jump to conclusions when children have issues, as you say. Issues can have many causes which are not immediately visible. I read about things that can go wrong with the development of a fetus and it’s a lot. Just as an example.
@tjampel I suppose some stories are difficult do dismiss and I agree that deliberate fraud is not the most likely explanation. As an overall skeptic I would have to suppose people imagining things or people exaggerating the facts, but that’s not something I can substantiate.
You can see one of these tests (a not very comprehensive version, unfortunately) conducted in "The Unmistaken Child" as well as what looks like very natural and unrehearsed behavior of a 4yr old boy who seems to remember objects and places that he would have no way of remembering. In one scene he is brought (for the first time we're told) to the place where his alleged predecessor practiced in solitary retreat for 7 years. As soon as he arrives he acts like he's totally familiar with the place and the objects in it, including, as I remember, a small trap door in the floor. He states that he knows the place.
When later he has to choose objects he chooses the correct ones. it doesn't look rehearsed; there may be bias introduced in terms of how the objects are presented, of course. I wasn't there.
I agree that these stories and video clips prove nothing about rebirth. What they do is make me wary about denying rebirth. If I were to have deep realizations regarding the nature of mind and, after that, were to remember what seemed like past or future lives I'd probably unconsciously shift in terms of my own beliefs, rightly or wrongly.
In the mean time I practice and leave this topic open. It goes totally against my own sense of what's possible; but so does liberation, unless we can all agree that it's nothing more than a rewiring of various portions of our brains. If that's it then I agree it's possible.
But I wouldn’t jump to conclusions when children have issues, as you say. Issues can have many causes which are not immediately visible. I read about things that can go wrong with the development of a fetus and it’s a lot.
I researched in the National Archives a completely non-existent unknown river that a 5 year old claimed to have existed in a past life of 150 years ago. The historical society of the region had absolutely no knowledge of said river. The state historical society also had no knowledge of said river. The river was not on any media resource or presentation of any kind, and no one had ever heard of said river.
Buried in the National Archives I eventually found an extremely obscure Civil War era military document that contained a description of a one time brief military encampment on the bank of said river, and another extremely obscure original document dating the complete drying up and extinction of that river due to the Mississippi altering its course shortly after the Civil War.
This research and discovery did not make me wonder what things can go wrong with fetal development. This research and discovery really made me wonder what things go wrong with adult development that would cause supposedly rational, scientifically-minded, open-minded adults to behave like frightened children clinging to dogmatic belief like a security blanket when confronted with apparent former life memories honestly recounted by young children.
This sneaky 5 yr old spending all that time at the National archives or, better yet, his scheming dad searching out the demonstrably obscure and then rehearsing night and day with with his 5 yr old to get the story right. What will those superstitionist Mahyanists come up with next!
Now if I were trying to counter this story, I'd ask readers to consider possibilities such as the boy having a grandmother who remembered some old Civil War story told by her grandmother, for example and I'd certainly want to know if any books which might have referenced the area in question were read to her/him (old children's stories). But these variables can be controlled for if one makes a real effort, I suppose (though granny might be dead). So, it's not probative but it's intriguing.
I don't accept past lives as a core belief; it's simply not an internal tenet that rises and asserts itself of its own accord. But I know of a great many stories like this one, and they reinforce my conviction that it's foolish to dismiss them as legends, distortion, exaggeration, and fraud. They present unexplained phenomena in a sometimes compelling way, as in this case. I'm not sure this boy (assuming that he really knew the name of this river and had no help from dad, granny, Washington Irving, or anyone else in that regard) is the rebirth of anyone. I am sure, if this story is true, that this boy had knowledge of something he shouldn't have had through any conventionally accepted information pathway. And that raises questions as to the mechanism for obtaining/possessing such knowledge. No one has ever posited an answer to such a question that holds.....water.
Anyway...dismiss these stories as unworthy of your consideration if you wish. I believe they raise a significant issue in terms of how a mind might obtain information it has no access to through any accepted means in this life (that's what this is really about, not rebirth) and should make some people, at least, reconsider an absolutist position on a variety of topics.
And...in the end...
My practice---whether this story is completely true or completely false---remains in this very moment. That's where my problems are; that's where they may be addressed.
There are people who approach the spiritual through the power of faith, and people who approach the spiritual through the power of doubt. There is a Buddhist approach to the Dharma for everyone. The Dharma gates are endless.
Spiritual beliefs and concerns do not really enter into it at all. Buddhism is about mindful observation. Science is likewise about mindful observation. If one wishes to determine if children are born as blank slates or with issues indicating the rebirth of a consciousness, one need only mindfully observe a great many children with whom one has a mutually trusting and respectful relationship. Everything else is pointless conjecture and speculation.
Having observed a great many children from such a position, I've seen plenty of evidence of rebirth.
Perhaps, but it's more likely you're only letting your mind confirm your desire to prove your belief correct by seeing patterns where none exist. Buddhism is about discovering who and what you are, and how the mind hides behind multiple illusions.
You have observed a great many children. Tell me, what would a child act like, if it was a unique bundle of inherited impulses and instincts in a still forming brain and body, instead of a receiver of some dead person's hidden spirit or atman? The baby looks and acts the same either way, but your mind interprets random movements to fit into your beliefs.
But it's irrelevent, anyway. I stopped caring one way or another about reincarnation when I realized what I was, and began to comprehend the question "What is it being reborn?" I am not a few buried memories, and anyone who has a fuzzy memory in the future of a man who has a rock collection in his front room, loves dogs and bows before a Buddhist altar every morning is welcome to them, for what they're worth. Once I'm dead, "I" won't need the memories anymore nor will I be making new ones. The unique bundle of skandhas will separate and will go back to where they came from. It's all right. The world will go on doing what it's always done, and I will have done my small part like the countless others who once walked the earth.
If you can keep on looking at a new-born babe without a break for ten years you will not perceive any change. The baby born at 10 a.m. appears just the same at 11 a.m. or at 12 noon. Each moment shows no difference from the next. One condition merges into the next so imperceptibly. It is a becoming, a continuous process of becoming. Close your eyes to this process and see the baby once a month. then only will you perceive a change. Then only can you speak in terms of "baby" and "boy" and not in terms of a process or a becoming.
The baby boy becomes an old man. They are different. By giving this "person" a name eg. John there is an illusion of an entity. By convention John was born on such a date, he grew old and died on such a date. In reality John the old man was never born, only the baby John. John the baby never died, only the old man John. Will the real John please stand up!
In terms of ultimate truth no one was born and no one died.
Everything is becoming. This is a universal process, a constant flux. It is when we miss the continuity of action that we speak in terms of things (atta/self) rather than processes or becomings.
Upadana pacaya bhavo [Existence is dependent on clinging to a self/being].
If you are a buddhist then you follow the dharma, the dharma was founded by that prince we all know who found a way to liberate oneself from samsara. He went on to speak of aeons of past lives he had lived, in many forms, many places and so forth. The dalai lama speaks of consciousness as a continuem and that there was no start and there is no end. He goes on to say that in meditation we learn to slow our mind down and glimpse at emptiness, with practice we can extend the time in which we remain in that emptiness. The awareness of consciousness becomes clearer and clearer. However, it is imprtant to realize this experience of luminosity of mind, of the nature of mind, is not a profound realization in itself. REBIRTH in many of the formless realms of samsara is considered to result from abiding in such states of clarity.
but it's more likely you're only letting your mind confirm your desire to prove your belief correct by seeing patterns where none exist.
I discovered hard physical evidence that confirmed a child's recounting of personal life experience of a life pre-dating the arising of that child's current "self" and physical body. What evidence do you present to support your clinging to your personal belief that the recounted experience of this and all such children who have recounted similar experiences must have to be an impossibility?
Buddhism is about discovering who and what you are, and how the mind hides behind multiple illusions.
Exactly. So exactly on what basis do you discount a child's recounting of direct personal experience? To discount a child's recounting of direct personal experience based on nothing but your own personal belief system is unacceptable.
You have observed a great many children. Tell me, what would a child act like, if it was a unique bundle of inherited impulses and instincts in a still forming brain and body, instead of a receiver of some dead person's hidden spirit or atman? The baby looks and acts the same either way, but your mind interprets random movements to fit into your beliefs.
So how would you interpret a 4 year old child recounting details of the Civil War unknown to historians, including the experience of having lived by a non-existent river that the historical society had no knowledge of in a year 150 years before his birth, but of which clear hard documented evidence exists buried in the National Archives?
There are people who approach the spiritual through the power of faith, and people who approach the spiritual through the power of doubt. There is a Buddhist approach to the Dharma for everyone. The Dharma gates are endless.
Spiritual beliefs and concerns do not really enter into it at all. Buddhism is about mindful observation. Science is likewise about mindful observation. If one wishes to determine if children are born as blank slates or with issues indicating the rebirth of a consciousness, one need only mindfully observe a great many children with whom one has a mutually trusting and respectful relationship. Everything else is pointless conjecture and speculation.
Having observed a great many children from such a position, I've seen plenty of evidence of rebirth.
Perhaps, but it's more likely you're only letting your mind confirm your desire to prove your belief correct by seeing patterns where none exist. Buddhism is about discovering who and what you are, and how the mind hides behind multiple illusions.
You have observed a great many children. Tell me, what would a child act like, if it was a unique bundle of inherited impulses and instincts in a still forming brain and body, instead of a receiver of some dead person's hidden spirit or atman? The baby looks and acts the same either way, but your mind interprets random movements to fit into your beliefs.
But it's irrelevent, anyway. I stopped caring one way or another about reincarnation when I realized what I was, and began to comprehend the question "What is it being reborn?" I am not a few buried memories, and anyone who has a fuzzy memory in the future of a man who has a rock collection in his front room, loves dogs and bows before a Buddhist altar every morning is welcome to them, for what they're worth. Once I'm dead, "I" won't need the memories anymore nor will I be making new ones. The unique bundle of skandhas will separate and will go back to where they came from. It's all right. The world will go on doing what it's always done, and I will have done my small part like the countless others who once walked the earth.
These questions are of importance to those who practice in the Mahayana. After all they are training to become beings who help others over a very long period of time (3 countless eons or whatever length of time it takes).
It matters not that a bodhisattva remembers what she or he was doing in a past life; what matters is that this wholly new being, with no memory of anything before age 2, study the dharma and help others. If, as a result of their pratice in this life, any other being born subsequently, practices the dharma within the Mahayana tradition, really well (as well or better than them), they have lived a meaningful life. They have created the causes and conditions for someone else to be able to help sentient beings suffer less (or end suffering altogether).
Even those Tibetan monks who intentionally (legend has it) take bodies and allegedly write down the addresses for easy "pickup" report that any memories they may have had at age 3 or 4 abate as they mature. However, most of them do practice within their tradition; a significant number of them really excel, have near perfect recall of texts after a single reading, learn instructions, prayers, debating and meditation skills very quickly, become respected teachers, and the like; the main point is that they practice well and keep their vows to make progress on the spiritual path for the benefit of all sentient beings. There's no way to prove who or what these beings are; if they study and practice well and become good teachers then that's enough.
Any tulku will tell you that saying they somehow share the consciousness of so and so (their predecessor) is silly. However, they might point to some text they really like and tell you that the previous rebirth also liked it, something like that is as far as it usually goes. The Dalai Lama's for example, have always seemed to have an affinity for Dzogchen practice (a Nyingma practice), though they are Gelugpas and generally do a very different type of practice (deity yoga, analytical meditation on emptiness (vipassana). However the 14th is really nothing like the 13th; study both biographies and you'll see that. The 13th was one tough being; kind of wrathful, really.
Those who oppose rebirth seem to make a big deal out of the remembrance aspect; the people who are actually recognized as rebirths don't at all. So, maybe it's a good idea not to debate in terms of remembrance.
Lastly, if rebirth exists, it's hidden from our ever being able to understand the mechanism, which is why the Buddha didn't speculate on the process. He uses flame lighting another flame; good to leave it at that.
I personally find the issue of rebirth to be rather insignificant. Even if my..."energies" (for want of a better term) remanifest themselves into another being after I have died this being won't have my experiences, my thoughts, my life, and thus it will not be me. Whether rebirth is real or not once I'm dead that's it. I no longer exist.
And more than that then that it has no bearing on my life now, at this moment, which is what's important to me. Thus rebirth has no real relevance to me.
Getting overly concerned with rebirth just means we're not paying attention to the issue of suffering. We're still trying to find answers to the wrong questions, instead of staring in the eyes of Dukkha and seeing why it's here.
Getting overly concerned with rebirth just means we're not paying attention to the issue of suffering. We're still trying to find answers to the wrong questions, instead of staring in the eyes of Dukkha and seeing why it's here.
For those who practice in the Theravada tradition---OK, say....I was practicing in that tradition; for me, it would be of little import whether or not there was rebirth, simply because the trainings one undergoes can be completed within one lifetime and should be approached that way as well, though it's clearly not easy and some meditate better than others, have greater ability to analyze, etc. In the Theravada tradition it makes the most sense to be mindful of the present and practice within the context of "right now"; all the rest is speculation that can't help your practice; it's not about preparing to do things in some other life.
However, the Mahayana tradition has a very different focus and a different time frame and different sets of practices than Theravada.
I think the Zen tradition may be an exception (please correct me if I'm wrong, Zen practitioners---I may well be!); it stresses here and now as strongly as Theravada; although it's within the Mahayana tradition, it's focus doesn't appear to be on becoming a Buddha after countless lifetimes of bodhisattva activity and teaching other beings as much as it is one of achieving deep understanding of just now.
So, looking ONLY at the other Mahayana traditions and the stated goal of the Mahayana, consider the reason for taking bodhisattva vows? The vows make no sense at all unless there is rebirth because those bodhisattvas, who engage in the Mahayana, vow to achieve complete and total enlightenment as opposed to liberation. Complete and total enlightenment can't be achieved in one lifetime through Mahayana practices said to be taught by the Buddha (or whoever taught them, not making claims about Mahayana scriptures here). Because it takes bodhisattvas a very ...very...long time to achieve anything even close to their goal, there is no good reason for the vows if there's no rebirth; if there is no good reason for the vows, there is no reason for the Mahayana, which is specifically the vehicle for those who have these vows.
So, for a fairly good chunk of Buddhist practitioner some concern with rebirth is a necessity; without it, they can't achieve their goal.
I guess I need to know what you mean by "overly" concerned. If one practices within the Mahayana are you advising them to switch to Theravada? Are you advising them not to try and generate Bodhicitta, to give up or not take Bodhisattva vows? What kind of "not overly concerned" behavior would you like to see from practitioners who, rightly or wrongly, depend on rebirth as a means of achieving their spiritual goal? My point is that, if you need something to work a particular way in order to achieve your goal, you will tend to have an abiding interest in it.
Ah but I wasn't talking about traditions, that just complicates and obfuscates the issues... I was talking about people. What we concern ourselves with is a good indication of our concerns, of what we're personally focused on and what's important to us. Of what we seek, of where our heart lies, what we're trying to figure out to make the universe make sense to us. We're always asking questions, but if they're the wrong questions we'll never get beyond "questioning".
Until we understand that the Four Noble Truths is the answer to all questions, that is. That's our refuge from the futility of seeking. The Buddha gave us the greatest gift that anyone could in teaching the Four Noble Truths, but we mostly either dismiss them as basic or think they're too advanced, and we focus on other areas that speak to our desires. The seeking will only keep feeding itself until we come to know the reason that we seek.
But hey, that's not to say there aren't questions and answers about rebirth in the various forms of Buddhism. There are, of course. There's a lot of info out there, a lot of thinking that can be done, interpretations and conclusions that can be made. It's just that they don't solve anything, and if they're bound up with clinging to self (which they often are whether we admit it to ourselves or not), they become a mental block and attachment; a road block instead of a road to freedom. With that, I'm out... good luck.
I think the Zen tradition may be an exception (please correct me if I'm wrong, Zen practitioners---I may well be!); it stresses here and now as strongly as Theravada; although it's within the Mahayana tradition, it's focus doesn't appear to be on becoming a Buddha after countless lifetimes of bodhisattva activity and teaching other beings as much as it is one of achieving deep understanding of just now.
That's pretty spot on. Unless there's some tradition in Zen that I don't know/understand. I'm pretty well a Zen noob myself.
Contemporary Chan masters (like Sheng Yen) talked about rebirth many times and their outlook was pretty consistent with classic Mahayana teachings. Same for Japanese Zen masters of the past, and I suspect Korean Seon too. Though it's never been so emphasised as in Tibetan Buddhism, it's always been there in the background.
I was talking about people. What we concern ourselves with is a good indication of our concerns, of what we're personally focused on and what's important to us. Of what we seek, of where our heart lies, what we're trying to figure out to make the universe make sense to us. We're always asking questions, but if they're the wrong questions we'll never get beyond "questioning".
Getting overly concerned with rebirth just means we're not paying attention to the issue of suffering. We're still trying to find answers to the wrong questions, instead of staring in the eyes of Dukkha and seeing why it's here.
Yes indeed... stare into the eyes of Dukkha... Why is Dukkha here? Because children are born helplessly seeking connection, love, and growth, but adults all too often ignorantly disrespect,ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, and silence children. In so doing, adults teach children that ignorance, disrespect, bullying, intimidation, abuse, controlling/exploitative/manipulative behavior, dysfunctional relationship, and lack of communication constitutes adult behavior. Children learn what they live,and grow up and teach what they have learned, and so the wheel of suffering and causing suffering continues, generation after generation.
Those who do not ignorantly disrespect, ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, exploit, manipulate, and/or silence children will sooner or later directly observe phenomena indicative of rebirth for themselves.
Those who advocate and/or ignorantly disrespect, ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, exploit, manipulate, and silence children will never directly observe any phenomena indicative of rebirth for themselves.
Ah but I wasn't talking about traditions, that just complicates and obfuscates the issues... I was talking about people. What we concern ourselves with is a good indication of our concerns, of what we're personally focused on and what's important to us. Of what we seek, of where our heart lies, what we're trying to figure out to make the universe make sense to us. We're always asking questions, but if they're the wrong questions we'll never get beyond "questioning".
Until we understand that the Four Noble Truths is the answer to all questions, that is. That's our refuge from the futility of seeking. The Buddha gave us the greatest gift that anyone could in teaching the Four Noble Truths, but we mostly either dismiss them as basic or think they're too advanced, and we focus on other areas that speak to our desires. The seeking will only keep feeding itself until we come to know the reason that we seek.
But hey, that's not to say there aren't questions and answers about rebirth in the various forms of Buddhism. There are, of course. There's a lot of info out there, a lot of thinking that can be done, interpretations and conclusions that can be made. It's just that they don't solve anything, and if they're bound up with clinging to self (which they often are whether we admit it to ourselves or not), they become a mental block and attachment; a road block instead of a road to freedom. With that, I'm out... good luck.
I don't disagree with you at all; I don't think those who practice in the Mahayana disagree with you either. I don't think Mahayanists are focused on lives other than this one, by and large; it's hard enough just to try to live a life where we can spend a significant amount of time actually practicing the Buddha's teachings; we should be doing it night and day. I don't think Mahayanists obsess about rebirth; it's simply that it's a part of the practice in that the practice takes a long term view. In fact, if they do obsess about rebirth and fail to practice here and now a if their head is on fire it will do them little or no good; whatever is/could possibly be reborn (if rebirth exists in any form at all) probably won't practice the dharma or won't practice well.
Within Mahayana, the Four Noble Truths are certainly not taught as or dismissed as basic; quite the contrary, they are the very highest truths, as set forth below. They are also the first thing studied. Bodhicitta and Emptiness are not generally taught until after some degree of renunciation is achieved; you need to have renunciation with regard to your self (you need to personally want to escape from the cesspit called samsara, and need a sense of urgency as well) before you can successfully meditate on wanting to bring others with you. You only can develop renunciation when you have achieved some understanding of the 3 types of suffering, in particular, of pervasive moment-to-moment suffering caused by the fundamental ignorance, which informs every mental action. Naturally the 12 stages of dependent origination are also taught during this period as well.
Just to put this all into perspective Je Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo's first 353 pages are all focused on gaining renunciation; most of that deals with the 4 Noble Truths and 12 stages (there is also a section on finding a spiritual guide). Maybe 1/2 of Pabongka Rinpoche's 28 day marathon teaching of Lam Rim, which became known as "Liberation thrust into the palm of your hands" deals with the 4 noble truths through teachings on impermanence, suffering, dependent origination and the like. Getting to renunciation, true renunciation, is the hard part; if we have true renunciation we have, to paraphrase Pabongka "[given] up on this life"; we have entered the spiritual path. The 4 Noble Truths are the engine that propels practitioners to that point.
And then, furthermore....
It is also taught, within the Mahayana, that true understanding of the 4 noble truths only comes AFTER the direct yogic perception of emptiness; that is to say the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry. It's for that reason it's said that the career of an Bodhisattva/Arya is one which familiarizes herself/himself with the meaning of 4 Noble Truths by entering into one pointed meditation on emptiness again and again, in addition to engaging in various bodhisattva activities.
@tjampel I understand what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing with you either... I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about Mahayana or the Mahayana View (or any traditional view as it "should" be understood), rather what I'm trying to say or point-out is that we take things "our way", which more often than not places importance on the wrong things and fails to place proper importance on what really matters. We're not geared to "stop" craving which is what we need to do, so we tend to continue looking in all the wrong places and asking the wrong questions. That's all I was saying.
Attachment to self results in suffering. That's pretty easy to see. It is this belief in an imaginary separate permanent self that keeps us stuck in cycles of samsara which is rebirth.
So the question is who or what do you think there is to be reborn? Is it the idea or concept of yourself that you have created in your mind?
The Buddha looked and looked and could not find a self. Dependent Origination occurring in the eternal present moment, but no self. Empty of self. Nothing to be attached to.
Reportedly the Buddha said when he was about to die.
I've taught you for 45 years, but don't believe anything I've said just because I said it. Test it, by your own experience, and if your experience proves that it's true, then I taught you the truth. If you're experience proves that it is false than I taught you a lie
What's the point of expecting Buddhists to believe in rebirth if they have no memories of past lives and were reasonably advised by the Buddha not believe things the Buddha said for/with no reason.
My experience has not in a bullet-proof manner proved that "my" experience will continue at death, so what's the point of putting faith (confidence) in that part of the Buddha's teaching which I view as unnessesary to understanding the four noble truths.
Yes, but in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha also says that if something is agreed on and held to be skillful/beneficial by the wise, one should go with it. It's not just the "think for yourself" bit as many people assume. Rebirth is one of the things you might accept by these criteria.
Comments
Faith:
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
If something has evidence the it's not faith.
Does rebirth have evidence that can be subject to science?
A belief in rebirth is a personal issue, just try to eliminate your desire to be reborn and accept that there is no eternal self. "You" will not survive death even if rebirth is true.
If I understand correctly there are three reasons, and I hope I don’t offend when I put them in my own words:
- the idea fits logically into the rest of the teaching
- the Buddha appears to be right on a lot of things
- there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence from people with some authority
One could very well argue that rebirth does not mix very well with the idea of anatta.
From moment to moment, this body and mind change and are without “self”. No problem.
But it is a huge leap to assume that something (and what exactly?) is going to be teleported to another body after death.
The Buddha can be right about a lot of things and be wrong about others. That’s in fact almost certain. He was human after all and a child of his time. You can’t expect a person who lived 2,5 mio years ago to understand and incorporate everything we learned about life and the universe since then.
The anecdotal evidence is not very good in spite of the integrity of the people involved.
The people you mentioned, dedicated their lives to the ideas of Buddhism. They gave up everything. The lived in a cave for god sake and meditated for many many years.
I’m telling you that will turn a person biased.
Just imagine they would find out -when they’re old and their lives are practically over - that it had all been in vain?
That’s not going to happen.
Their memories of previous lives are essential for justifying everything they stood for all of their lives. Their confirmation bias is as big as confirmation bias can get.
with no experience whatsoever of conceiving, birthing, raising, listening to and observing young children, nor enjoying the trust and confidences shared by young children, write off young children as "blank slates" and rebirth as a matter of faith or delusion.
They say they have no scientific proof of rebirth.
It never seems to occur to them that between their fear, arrogance, and ignorance of children that perhaps they do not deserve any proof, for truly they lack sufficient maturity to be capable of respectful communication with children and of actually hearing and respecting the truths shared by them.
A pity.
The Dharma gates are endless.
If you believe in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "How is it carried? What is reborn?" to get a glimpse into anatta.
If you don't believe in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "How did it come? Where does it go?" and find anicca.
If you neither believe or disbelieve in rebirth/reincarnation, perhaps it would be better to contemplate "What does investing belief in an imponderable paradigm bring in the moment?" and find dukkha.
As for the Thai forest Wat monks if you say Ajahn Sao and Ajahm Mun were both failures in their spiritual career then it may become very tough to point to anyone who was successful to hold up as a model. How do you show that someone was enlightened; it's impossible; it's an internal state free of suffering. The two monks I've mentioned are said by followers to have been arahants. That doesn't make it so, but it doesn't mean they were failures looking to justify their lives. In fact that would be out of keeping with how they both had lived their lives. For example, Ajahn Sao never spoke of his rebirths with anyone except his closest student, Ajahan Mun, as far as I know; and the reason he communicated this was because of his reticence to speak in public; he rarely spoke for more than a few minutes in public and his explanation to Ajahn Mun had to do with a previous life.
Is it wrong for me not to be so open minded that me brain will not fall out?
"When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and quite well established,
And good behaviour built on morality, Liked by the Noble Ones and praised!
When one has confidence in the Sangha, And a view straight and clear!
Then they say, that one is not poor, That one's life is not wasted...
Therefore should any intelligent person, aware of the Buddha-Dhamma,
be devoted to the fine faith & moral purity, which gives confirmed conviction
in this safe saving Dhamma."
SN V 405
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Alavaka once asked the Blessed Buddha:
What wealth here is best for any man? What well practiced brings happiness?
What is the sweetest of all the flavours? How is this life best lived?
The Buddha:
Faith is the best wealth here for any human!
Dhamma well practiced brings happiness! Nothing is sweeter than truth.
A wise life lived in understanding is best...
Alavaka:
How does one cross the flood of ills? How is the ocean of existence crossed?
How is all suffering stilled? How is one purified?
The Buddha:
By Faith is the flood of evil crossed! By attention is this existence crossed!
By effort is all suffering stilled! By wisdom one is finally purified!
Sn 182-184
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Suffering is the cause of Faith...
Elated Joy is the effect of Faith... Entrance is the function of Faith...
Trusting is the characteristic of Faith...
Decisiveness is the manifestation of Faith...
Faith is the Hand, that lifts one out of Suffering...
Faith is the Seed, that makes one grow much good Future...
Faith is the Real Wealth, since it produces the best Advantage...
Vism XIV 140
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Bhikkhus, when a Noble Disciple possesses 4 things, then he is said to be rich,
with much wealth and prosperous property. What four?
Here, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple possesses the faith of confirmed confidence
in the Supreme Buddha ... in the Perfect Dhamma ... and in the Noble Sangha....
He possesses the moral purity that is praised by the Noble Ones, unbroken ...
unspotted ... untorn ... pure ... intact ... leading to absorbed concentration....
Any Noble Disciple, who possesses these 4 things is indeed really quite rich,
with much heavy wealth and a lush and vast property.... SN V 402
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What and How is the Power of Faith?
It is not shaken by sceptical non-faith, thus is it the Power of Faith.
It is the Power of Faith by stiffening & stabilizing other qualities.
It is the Power of Faith by terminating the bad mental defilements.
It is the Power of Faith by purifying penetration to understanding.
It is the Power of Faith by calming, steadying & focusing the mind.
It is the Power of Faith by clearing, cleansing & purifying the mind.
It is the Power of Faith in the sense of arrival at subtle distinction.
It is the Power of Faith in the sense of penetration to even higher.
It is the Power of Faith in the sense of convergence upon actuality.
It is the Power of Faith in the sense of establishing in cessation!
This and so is the Power of Faith...
The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. XIX.
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No, it is not wrong to be so open minded that the brain will not fall out. However, having faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha does not cause your brain to fall out. It causes you to be closer to Buddha, closer to enlightenment, closer to the end of suffering.
Buddhism is about mindful observation.
Science is likewise about mindful observation.
If one wishes to determine if children are born as blank slates or with issues indicating the rebirth of a consciousness, one need only mindfully observe a great many children with whom one has a mutually trusting and respectful relationship.
Everything else is pointless conjecture and speculation.
Having observed a great many children from such a position,
I've seen plenty of evidence of rebirth.
I suppose some stories are difficult do dismiss and I agree that deliberate fraud is not the most likely explanation.
As an overall skeptic I would have to suppose people imagining things or people exaggerating the facts, but that’s not something I can substantiate.
Observation is a good way of settling things.
But I wouldn’t jump to conclusions when children have issues, as you say.
Issues can have many causes which are not immediately visible.
I read about things that can go wrong with the development of a fetus and it’s a lot.
Just as an example.
When later he has to choose objects he chooses the correct ones. it doesn't look rehearsed; there may be bias introduced in terms of how the objects are presented, of course. I wasn't there.
I agree that these stories and video clips prove nothing about rebirth. What they do is make me wary about denying rebirth. If I were to have deep realizations regarding the nature of mind and, after that, were to remember what seemed like past or future lives I'd probably unconsciously shift in terms of my own beliefs, rightly or wrongly.
In the mean time I practice and leave this topic open. It goes totally against my own sense of what's possible; but so does liberation, unless we can all agree that it's nothing more than a rewiring of various portions of our brains. If that's it then I agree it's possible.
Buried in the National Archives I eventually found an extremely obscure Civil War era military document that contained a description of a one time brief military encampment on the bank of said river, and another extremely obscure original document dating the complete drying up and extinction of that river due to the Mississippi altering its course shortly after the Civil War.
This research and discovery did not make me wonder what things can go wrong with fetal development. This research and discovery really made me wonder what things go wrong with adult development that would cause supposedly rational, scientifically-minded, open-minded adults to behave like frightened children clinging to dogmatic belief like a security blanket when confronted with apparent former life memories honestly recounted by young children.
Now if I were trying to counter this story, I'd ask readers to consider possibilities such as the boy having a grandmother who remembered some old Civil War story told by her grandmother, for example and I'd certainly want to know if any books which might have referenced the area in question were read to her/him (old children's stories). But these variables can be controlled for if one makes a real effort, I suppose (though granny might be dead). So, it's not probative but it's intriguing.
I don't accept past lives as a core belief; it's simply not an internal tenet that rises and asserts itself of its own accord. But I know of a great many stories like this one, and they reinforce my conviction that it's foolish to dismiss them as legends, distortion, exaggeration, and fraud. They present unexplained phenomena in a sometimes compelling way, as in this case. I'm not sure this boy (assuming that he really knew the name of this river and had no help from dad, granny, Washington Irving, or anyone else in that regard) is the rebirth of anyone. I am sure, if this story is true, that this boy had knowledge of something he shouldn't have had through any conventionally accepted information pathway. And that raises questions as to the mechanism for obtaining/possessing such knowledge. No one has ever posited an answer to such a question that holds.....water.
Anyway...dismiss these stories as unworthy of your consideration if you wish. I believe they raise a significant issue in terms of how a mind might obtain information it has no access to through any accepted means in this life (that's what this is really about, not rebirth) and should make some people, at least, reconsider an absolutist position on a variety of topics.
And...in the end...
My practice---whether this story is completely true or completely false---remains in this very moment. That's where my problems are; that's where they may be addressed.
You have observed a great many children. Tell me, what would a child act like, if it was a unique bundle of inherited impulses and instincts in a still forming brain and body, instead of a receiver of some dead person's hidden spirit or atman? The baby looks and acts the same either way, but your mind interprets random movements to fit into your beliefs.
But it's irrelevent, anyway. I stopped caring one way or another about reincarnation when I realized what I was, and began to comprehend the question "What is it being reborn?" I am not a few buried memories, and anyone who has a fuzzy memory in the future of a man who has a rock collection in his front room, loves dogs and bows before a Buddhist altar every morning is welcome to them, for what they're worth. Once I'm dead, "I" won't need the memories anymore nor will I be making new ones. The unique bundle of skandhas will separate and will go back to where they came from. It's all right. The world will go on doing what it's always done, and I will have done my small part like the countless others who once walked the earth.
The baby boy becomes an old man. They are different. By giving this "person" a name eg. John there is an illusion of an entity. By convention John was born on such a date, he grew old and died on such a date. In reality John the old man was never born, only the baby John. John the baby never died, only the old man John. Will the real John please stand up!
In terms of ultimate truth no one was born and no one died.
Everything is becoming. This is a universal process, a constant flux. It is when we miss the continuity of action that we speak in terms of things (atta/self) rather than processes or becomings.
Upadana pacaya bhavo [Existence is dependent on clinging to a self/being].
The dalai lama speaks of consciousness as a continuem and that there was no start and there is no end. He goes on to say that in meditation we learn to slow our mind down and glimpse at emptiness, with practice we can extend the time in which we remain in that emptiness. The awareness of consciousness becomes clearer and clearer.
However, it is imprtant to realize this experience of luminosity of mind, of the nature of mind, is not a profound realization in itself. REBIRTH in many of the formless realms of samsara is considered to result from abiding in such states of clarity.
What evidence do you present to support your clinging to your personal belief that the recounted experience of this and all such children who have recounted similar experiences must have to be an impossibility? Exactly. So exactly on what basis do you discount a child's recounting of direct personal experience? To discount a child's recounting of direct personal experience based on nothing but your own personal belief system is unacceptable.
So how would you interpret a 4 year old child recounting details of the Civil War unknown to historians, including the experience of having lived by a non-existent river that the historical society had no knowledge of in a year 150 years before his birth, but of which clear hard documented evidence exists buried in the National Archives?
It matters not that a bodhisattva remembers what she or he was doing in a past life; what matters is that this wholly new being, with no memory of anything before age 2, study the dharma and help others. If, as a result of their pratice in this life, any other being born subsequently, practices the dharma within the Mahayana tradition, really well (as well or better than them), they have lived a meaningful life. They have created the causes and conditions for someone else to be able to help sentient beings suffer less (or end suffering altogether).
Even those Tibetan monks who intentionally (legend has it) take bodies and allegedly write down the addresses for easy "pickup" report that any memories they may have had at age 3 or 4 abate as they mature. However, most of them do practice within their tradition; a significant number of them really excel, have near perfect recall of texts after a single reading, learn instructions, prayers, debating and meditation skills very quickly, become respected teachers, and the like; the main point is that they practice well and keep their vows to make progress on the spiritual path for the benefit of all sentient beings. There's no way to prove who or what these beings are; if they study and practice well and become good teachers then that's enough.
Any tulku will tell you that saying they somehow share the consciousness of so and so (their predecessor) is silly. However, they might point to some text they really like and tell you that the previous rebirth also liked it, something like that is as far as it usually goes. The Dalai Lama's for example, have always seemed to have an affinity for Dzogchen practice (a Nyingma practice), though they are Gelugpas and generally do a very different type of practice (deity yoga, analytical meditation on emptiness (vipassana). However the 14th is really nothing like the 13th; study both biographies and you'll see that. The 13th was one tough being; kind of wrathful, really.
Those who oppose rebirth seem to make a big deal out of the remembrance aspect; the people who are actually recognized as rebirths don't at all. So, maybe it's a good idea not to debate in terms of remembrance.
Lastly, if rebirth exists, it's hidden from our ever being able to understand the mechanism, which is why the Buddha didn't speculate on the process. He uses flame lighting another flame; good to leave it at that.
And more than that then that it has no bearing on my life now, at this moment, which is what's important to me. Thus rebirth has no real relevance to me.
However, the Mahayana tradition has a very different focus and a different time frame and different sets of practices than Theravada.
I think the Zen tradition may be an exception (please correct me if I'm wrong, Zen practitioners---I may well be!); it stresses here and now as strongly as Theravada; although it's within the Mahayana tradition, it's focus doesn't appear to be on becoming a Buddha after countless lifetimes of bodhisattva activity and teaching other beings as much as it is one of achieving deep understanding of just now.
So, looking ONLY at the other Mahayana traditions and the stated goal of the Mahayana, consider the reason for taking bodhisattva vows? The vows make no sense at all unless there is rebirth because those bodhisattvas, who engage in the Mahayana, vow to achieve complete and total enlightenment as opposed to liberation. Complete and total enlightenment can't be achieved in one lifetime through Mahayana practices said to be taught by the Buddha (or whoever taught them, not making claims about Mahayana scriptures here). Because it takes bodhisattvas a very ...very...long time to achieve anything even close to their goal, there is no good reason for the vows if there's no rebirth; if there is no good reason for the vows, there is no reason for the Mahayana, which is specifically the vehicle for those who have these vows.
So, for a fairly good chunk of Buddhist practitioner some concern with rebirth is a necessity; without it, they can't achieve their goal.
I guess I need to know what you mean by "overly" concerned. If one practices within the Mahayana are you advising them to switch to Theravada? Are you advising them not to try and generate Bodhicitta, to give up or not take Bodhisattva vows? What kind of "not overly concerned" behavior would you like to see from practitioners who, rightly or wrongly, depend on rebirth as a means of achieving their spiritual goal? My point is that, if you need something to work a particular way in order to achieve your goal, you will tend to have an abiding interest in it.
Until we understand that the Four Noble Truths is the answer to all questions, that is. That's our refuge from the futility of seeking. The Buddha gave us the greatest gift that anyone could in teaching the Four Noble Truths, but we mostly either dismiss them as basic or think they're too advanced, and we focus on other areas that speak to our desires. The seeking will only keep feeding itself until we come to know the reason that we seek.
But hey, that's not to say there aren't questions and answers about rebirth in the various forms of Buddhism. There are, of course. There's a lot of info out there, a lot of thinking that can be done, interpretations and conclusions that can be made. It's just that they don't solve anything, and if they're bound up with clinging to self (which they often are whether we admit it to ourselves or not), they become a mental block and attachment; a road block instead of a road to freedom. With that, I'm out... good luck.
Well said, enough said.
Why is Dukkha here?
Because children are born helplessly seeking connection, love, and growth,
but adults all too often ignorantly disrespect,ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, and silence children. In so doing, adults teach children that ignorance, disrespect, bullying, intimidation, abuse, controlling/exploitative/manipulative behavior, dysfunctional relationship, and lack of communication constitutes adult behavior.
Children learn what they live,and grow up and teach what they have learned, and so the wheel of suffering and causing suffering continues, generation after generation.
Those who do not ignorantly disrespect, ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, exploit, manipulate, and/or silence children will sooner or later directly observe phenomena indicative of rebirth for themselves.
Those who advocate and/or ignorantly disrespect, ignore, bully, intimidate, abuse, exploit, manipulate, and silence children will never directly observe any phenomena indicative of rebirth for themselves.
All others will engage in pointless speculation.
Within Mahayana, the Four Noble Truths are certainly not taught as or dismissed as basic; quite the contrary, they are the very highest truths, as set forth below. They are also the first thing studied. Bodhicitta and Emptiness are not generally taught until after some degree of renunciation is achieved; you need to have renunciation with regard to your self (you need to personally want to escape from the cesspit called samsara, and need a sense of urgency as well) before you can successfully meditate on wanting to bring others with you. You only can develop renunciation when you have achieved some understanding of the 3 types of suffering, in particular, of pervasive moment-to-moment suffering caused by the fundamental ignorance, which informs every mental action. Naturally the 12 stages of dependent origination are also taught during this period as well.
Just to put this all into perspective Je Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo's first 353 pages are all focused on gaining renunciation; most of that deals with the 4 Noble Truths and 12 stages (there is also a section on finding a spiritual guide). Maybe 1/2 of Pabongka Rinpoche's 28 day marathon teaching of Lam Rim, which became known as "Liberation thrust into the palm of your hands" deals with the 4 noble truths through teachings on impermanence, suffering, dependent origination and the like. Getting to renunciation, true renunciation, is the hard part; if we have true renunciation we have, to paraphrase Pabongka "[given] up on this life"; we have entered the spiritual path. The 4 Noble Truths are the engine that propels practitioners to that point.
And then, furthermore....
It is also taught, within the Mahayana, that true understanding of the 4 noble truths only comes AFTER the direct yogic perception of emptiness; that is to say the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry. It's for that reason it's said that the career of an Bodhisattva/Arya is one which familiarizes herself/himself with the meaning of 4 Noble Truths by entering into one pointed meditation on emptiness again and again, in addition to engaging in various bodhisattva activities.
I understand what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing with you either... I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about Mahayana or the Mahayana View (or any traditional view as it "should" be understood), rather what I'm trying to say or point-out is that we take things "our way", which more often than not places importance on the wrong things and fails to place proper importance on what really matters. We're not geared to "stop" craving which is what we need to do, so we tend to continue looking in all the wrong places and asking the wrong questions. That's all I was saying.
take care
tj
Attachment to self results in suffering. That's pretty easy to see.
It is this belief in an imaginary separate permanent self that keeps us stuck in cycles of samsara which is rebirth.
So the question is who or what do you think there is to be reborn? Is it the idea or concept of yourself that you have created in your mind?
The Buddha looked and looked and could not find a self. Dependent Origination occurring in the eternal present moment, but no self. Empty of self. Nothing to be attached to.
I've taught you for 45 years, but don't believe anything I've said just because I said it. Test it, by your own experience, and if your experience proves that it's true, then I taught you the truth. If you're experience proves that it is false than I taught you a lie
What's the point of expecting Buddhists to believe in rebirth if they have no memories of past lives and were reasonably advised by the Buddha not believe things the Buddha said for/with no reason.