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Evil effect of frivolous talk

andynandyn
edited March 2012 in General Banter
Hello all,

I came across a quote from the book "The Buddha and His Teaching" by Venerable Narada Mahathera regarding the effect of Frivolous talk.

From http://buddhism.org/Sutras/BuddhaTeachings/page_20.html
Two conditions are necessary to complete the evil of frivolous talk:-- namely, i. the inclination towards frivolous talk, and ii. its narration.

The inevitable consequences of frivolous talk are:-defective bodily organs, and incredible speech.

So, would it be OK to do small talk and crack jokes for a lay person? Most of us have friends, family, co-workers who do that and we also have the need to do that at times too. Also, as for the effect, how much is your speed be incredible, will it be all the time toward everyone, that is will everyone not trusting you all the time, or only for a certain situation and certain someone?
Also, if we do small talk or cracking jokes not in a harmful way to anyone, would that bring about the "evil effect"?

I've been trying to find the sutta where this quote is referenced from but I have not been able to. I appreciate if anyone could tell me where this is from?

Regards,

Andy

Comments

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Well, I don't know about defective bodily organs, but I can say from experience that someone who engages in frivolous talks words aren't generally taken as being as credible as someone who normally talks with meaning.

    Also, 'evil effect' seems kind of odd and unusually judgemental coming from a Buddhist source.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    At most I'd say that when engaging in "frivolous talk" just refrain from being an asshat and remain mindful of what you say, and it's all good. Small talk and the like is how people, you know, get to know each other. Are they implying we remain isolated from each other?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    interesting it says 'sutras' not 'suttas'... which may indicate that its provenance, tradition-wise - is Mahayana.
    without wishing to cast aspersions, there is some discussion on whether all that is taught in Mahayana came directly from the Buddha.... :scratch:
  • MsJeniMsJeni
    edited March 2012
    I am kind on the same page as Zayl
    What you are referring as frivolous talk actually has a social and mental health purpose and that which does no harm, such as making a joke, or talking about what's going on in ones life, or loved ones, is not actually frivolous talk.

    I would lean towards frivolous talk as been something that would be said for no other reason than to cause someone suffering, or just to talk to hear yourself talk (I sometimes do this in talking to myself, LOL).
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    interesting it says 'sutras' not 'suttas'... which may indicate that its provenance, tradition-wise - is Mahayana.
    without wishing to cast aspersions, there is some discussion on whether all that is taught in Mahayana came directly from the Buddha.... :scratch:
    Yeah, its wierd, the link says sutra but then in the link everything is called kamma. I can't really get a clear read on the tradition.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Going to the homepage the table of contents reads like Therevada but then there's a section on the bodhisattva. In the acknowledgements at the bottom there is mention of Vietnam and also of Ceylon.
  • possibilitiespossibilities PNW, WA State Veteran
    The quote is taken from The Buddha and His Teachings by Narada Mahathera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narada_Maha_Thera He was a Theravadan Buddhist monk and translator...

    This (below) is also part of the translation:

    "The inevitable consequences of sexual misconduct are: (....) birth as a woman or eunuch" and makes me think this text needs to be taken with a grain of salt - or 2.

    However, if you ask "if we do small talk or cracking jokes not in a harmful way to anyone, would that bring about the "evil effect"?" you need to think about how gossip, exaggerations and inadequate language can be hurtful, even if your current state of consciousness doesn't see it that way.
    Language and content is evolving all the time towards being more PC - for good reason.

    Also, given that language is a manifestation of dualism, it makes sense to rethink old habits if you Accept and Practice Buddhist teachings.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012

    without wishing to cast aspersions, there is some discussion on whether all that is taught in Mahayana came directly from the Buddha.... :scratch:
    OMG ...do you think so? Oh..... my world is shattered.

    Sorry for the humor :D .....

    Seriously, Federica... No Mahayana or at least no Zen Buddhist I know, teacher or student, is deluded enough to think the Mahayana Sutras originated from the Buddha's time.

    That is something for Theravadin and Mahayana chauvinists to chew on.

    ..as far as Zen practice is concerned it is a non issue. and any serious Zen Student is expected to understand the grounding of Buddhism in the Pali Canon. ..end of stupid discussion.


    The pedigree of the Pali canon regarding the actual historical Buddha is some else's chase.




  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator


    OMG ...do you think so? Oh..... my world is shattered.

    Sorry for the humor :D .....

    Seriously, Federica... No Mahayana or at least no Zen Buddhist I know, teacher or student, is deluded enough to think the Mahayana Sutras originated from the Buddha's time.
    I don't diss other traditions.
    as a Budd-mod, i make every attempt to remain impartial.... ;)

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    Maybe it would be a good idea to start a sober thread about silly Buddhist anachronisms?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    sober...? cool. i don't drink anyway.

    or is this frivolous talk?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    I'm sorry ma'am but I do not engage in frivolous talk... I have held my sphincter in a tight knot since 1998.. It's a Zen thing.


  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    I'm sorry ma'am but I do not engage in frivolous talk... I have held my sphincter in a tight knot since 1998.. It's a Zen thing.


    Must play hell on your digestive system.

    See? harmless frivolous talk, right? :D

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    you need to write the follow-up book...
    "Zen and the Art of Sphincter-Constriction Maintenance....."
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    I'm sorry ma'am but I do not engage in frivolous talk... I have held my sphincter in a tight knot since 1998.. It's a Zen thing.


    Must play hell on your digestive system.

    See? harmless frivolous talk, right? :D

    There is some bloating... :(

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    you need to write the follow-up book...
    "Zen and the Art of Sphincter-Constriction Maintenance....."
    "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" did more to dumb down Zen Buddhism into "Zen" than any other "Zen" book. I remember my bonehead slacker "Zen" cousin who carried that thing like his bible.... ooooh don't get me started..

    ...well now that I am started.. whats with people calling it "tuna fish":... as in "I'll have a tuna fish sandwich"

    ... sigh.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    yeah, true dat... you don't have "smoked mackerel fish salad" do you...?

    good point, Richard.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Well if the motivation is sharing joy and helping sentient beings then even if it comes out wrong that just serves as a learning experience.

    Zen isn't about making things go. This whole experience makes me think there is something I have forgotten about. Zipper, check. Full tummy check. Glass of water is empty so tht's what's bothering me? We can pull through teeam!
  • IñigoIñigo Explorer
    edited March 2012
    To the questions in Andyn's OP.
    The issue is the intention behind small talk. Talk can be over heard and the result may be different to an onlooker than the person for whom it was actually meant.

    For example, I once said "I think there is asbestos in this building" to a close colleague not knowing that I was overheard by another member of staff. The person overhearing me went to the senior director and said that they were concerned about working in the building. The result of a long story was I had to appologise for the comment to the senior director to put all minds at rest.

    Since then I have been very careful about making comments or idle chat which could be misunderstood. Jokes are the same, what is funny for some can sound agressive for others. I still chat and try to be friendly but I try to make sure my intention cannot be miscontrued.
    SarahT
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    yeah, true dat... you don't have "smoked mackerel fish salad" do you...?

    good point, Richard.


    :D Knew you would appreciate that one.. :)
  • andynandyn
    Thank you all for replying to my question. I'm trying to see if the Buddha actually said that or is it made up from someone else? If so, is this apply to monks only? Didn't have any luck from the search, though I found another link that also mentioned this effect, this time by another venerable. :(

    From http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/buddhists08.htm
    The inevitable effects of frivolous talk are defective bodily organs and speech which no one believes.
  • andynandyn
    Found a sutta that mentioned about the result of incredible speech:

    From http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/rtspch1.htm
    Bhikkhus, samphappalapavada (frivolous speech) that is thoroughly consumed, developed, and made much of, naturally leads to hell, to animal birth, and to the preta realms. The result of the frivolous speech of those who are humans that is lighter than the (above) results is the one that leads to speech that nobody believes.
    Hmm, looks like something that apply to monks? I don't see how conversations of the weather, sports, tv show... would lead you to hell.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    I was going to start a thread on banter between friends/family and partners. I know people who make jokes between each other, especially in guys. If you get a group of guys together, there is almost always banter. But I was thinking to myself if that is actually something unskilful to conduct in. If it offends and hurts someones feelings then I would assume most probably. If you go really hardcore buddhist then any form of gossip should not be spoken of, if you have nothing to say that will improve the silence, then shut up! :)
  • andynandyn
    I've been bothered by this sutta (insecure to some sense). How would frivious talk lead you to be born in hell? Could someone shed some lights on this? If you could have an example, that would be great. I can see that lie, slander, or rough talking others are bad, but I just don't see how casual conversation which you enjoy with your family and friends are bad? Also, Is this only apply to monks who take the precepts?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Hello......
    I think he seems to be addressing Bhikkhus....?
    All ordained members of a Sangha have exacting standards to live up to -

    We're not ordained.

    are we?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    interesting it says 'sutras' not 'suttas'... which may indicate that its provenance, tradition-wise - is Mahayana.
    without wishing to cast aspersions, there is some discussion on whether all that is taught in Mahayana came directly from the Buddha.... :scratch:
    It's a book written by a Theravada monk, so I would assume it from a Theravada standpoint. :)
    I've been bothered by this sutta (insecure to some sense). How would frivious talk lead you to be born in hell? Could someone shed some lights on this? If you could have an example, that would be great. I can see that lie, slander, or rough talking others are bad, but I just don't see how casual conversation which you enjoy with your family and friends are bad? Also, Is this only apply to monks who take the precepts?
    Frivolous talk is basically the "idle chatter" aspect of wrong speech. It applies to everyone who wants to follow the 8 Fold path as it is part of the 8 fold path.
    Right Speech
    by
    Thanissaro Bhikkhu
    As my teacher once said, "If you can't control your mouth, there's no way you can hope to control your mind.' This is why right speech is so important in day-to-day practice.

    Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all).

    Notice the focus on intent: this is where the practice of right speech intersects with the training of the mind. Before you speak, you focus on why you want to speak. This helps get you in touch with all the machinations taking place in the committee of voices running your mind. If you see any unskillful motives lurking behind the committee's decisions, you veto them. As a result, you become more aware of yourself, more honest with yourself, more firm with yourself. You also save yourself from saying things that you'll later regret. In this way you strengthen qualities of mind
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/speech.html

    Purposeless gossip is a prefect example of idle chatter to be avoided. Casual conversation with friends or family could or could not be wrong speech IMO, I think it depends on the individual situation. Not all casual conversation can be classified as "frivolous talk" because it sometimes does have a rightful purpose. Often the purpose of such speech, according communication scholars, is simply to maintain healthy and friendly relationships with friends and family, etc. I think it depends on the individual situation.

    SarahT
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