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Chi

edited July 2005 in Buddhism Basics
A friend of mine practices Buddhism, and he explained to me about the concept chi. I can't seem to find anything about chi in any sites or books about buddhism, can someone explain to me how chi fits in to Buddhism? thanks for any help you can be and also hello everyone

Comments

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2005
    I think chi is more in Chinese spirituality, martial arts, and medicine. It's their belief in the energy that comes from life. It was/is used to help the body heal, to perform amazing feats of strength, and keep the mind balanced. I suppose that the Chineses Ch'an Buddhists may have made it a part of their religion and practice, but it's not a Buddhist idea...I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's correct.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2005
    Oh and my manners....where are they? Hello! And welcome to the site.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited June 2005
    The way my Grandmaster explaied chi to me was this. It is an energy that surrounds our bodies about 3 inches out. It also goes through our bodies. In Kung Fu we use chi to fight with or we take chi away from our opponents. Chi is what protects fighters from being cut by knives. The Shaolin do this all the time. I can pull Chi from my belly button and make a heat ball. Our belly button is where we can harness our chi. There are many other ways it can be used. People can boil water with it, raise body temperature, use it to hit someone with. My Grandmaster said he could lay on the ground and psh his chi into the ground and make himself levitate. Never saw that one but from what I have seen him do I wouldn't put it past him. :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited June 2005
    Hello Spacey,

    Just to add another welcome and to confirm what Elohim said: Ch'i is part of the Chinese 'energy medicine' approach which includes acupuncture, etc. Notions of energy channels within and around the somatic body can also be found in the Japanese system, too.

    Not all Buddhist societies use the notion of Ch'i. Tibetan medicine is completely different and is well worth some study in our Buddhist practice:
    http://www.tibet.com/Med_Astro/tibmed.html

    "The basic theory of Tibetan medicine is to keep in balance the Nyipa sum - they are rLung (pronounced loong), mKhris-pa and Bad-kan. The long-term causative factors of Nyipa sum are the three poisons of desire, hatred and delusion which show how closely connected Tibetan medicine is with Buddhist philosophy."
  • edited June 2005
    Hi Spacey,

    Welcome to the site!

    Adiana
  • edited June 2005
    I think the best qualified person to give us accurate information on the nature of qi (chi) is our very own QiGong instructor Federica...
  • edited June 2005
    Welcome Spacey.
    In answer to your question What is Chi? In china Chi ( pronounced Chee) it is the life force or spirit of all living things. It is the energy that surrounds us and flows through us.
    In Japan it is called Ki. In India it is refered to as the Prana or Shakti. And in the Christian world it is called the Holy Spirit.

    Hope this helps.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited June 2005
    Hey, MooLgt,

    That's quite a leap you make there! I'm not sure about identifying Ch'i with the Holy Spirit quite works for me.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited June 2005
    I wouldn't call it the holy spirit either.
  • ZenLunaticZenLunatic Veteran
    edited June 2005
    It's more like the 'force' :rockon:
  • edited June 2005
    thank you all for your warm welcome and your advice, for most of my life, i have been a christian, but i'm not going to lie, i've never really been devout, i really don't believe in the church very much recently as it just seems to be a corrupt institute, and also, since i saw my friend demonstrate his Ch'i, Ki, Chi, or Prana, whatever you desire to refer to it as lol, i have taken an interest in Buddhism, well thank you all very much and i hope to talk to you more
  • edited July 2005
    I hate to double post, but it has been ages since I have been on. How is everyone? Well, I have done some research and found that Ch'i seems to be consistent with a smaller portion of the Chinese Buddhists. I really should ask my friend where he discovered it at, but it seems like the age gap between us prevents us from seeing each other in school.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Hi spacey,

    I don't know what chi is (or sometimes, depending on what part of the world you're from, call ki) for sure. I've mostly run across the term in martial arts and chinese healing medicine/practices.

    I've heard explanations of it being this force that surrounds your body, that protects you, that is centered in your body about three inches behind your belly button - and tons of things that people can supposedly do with it.

    I've also seen great "chi" masters defrocked on their so-called ability to use their chi. There is a person who goes around the world (and I can't think of his name right now) asking people to demonstrate their "chi abilities" and they've all been shown to be fakes.

    So ... after all the discussion I've heard of chi (especially in martial arts) this is how I've come to terms with it .... to me, it's my "center".

    If someone is using their "chi" against me - their using their center against me. They are more grounded, or better balanced than I am. If someone is using my own chi against me (as is done and discussed in aikido) they're using my center against me. If they're redirecting my chi they are using my center and the force of mass I've generated against me (which is "key" in aikido).

    I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. But after careful examination, not just taking what elders have said to be true, or because it has been written in a book somewhere - I have not found that what most "chi" masters to have said to be true. In thinking of it as the center of your being, your focus, the force or momentum you create in doing something - then yes, I could agree that calling it "chi" is a good name for it.

    Michael
  • BrianBrian Detroit, MI Moderator
    edited July 2005
    I am a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic. I thought chi was a load of crap until I saw my martial arts teacher bend a sharpened bamboo pole on with his neck. He put the point on his adam's apple and pushed the stick against the wall until it bent almost in half.

    Stunning enough, but I still was a skeptic. I wanted to check the pole myself, so I did. It was just a regular old bamboo stick, with a point on it. No "joint", no hidden tricks.

    That same instructor was in a wheelchair as a child until he was eight years old, because he was "crippled" until he was taken under a chinese master's wing.

    I fully accept the notion of chi now.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Yes, but was what you saw actually a demonstration of "chi/ki" or just training?

    You or I couldn't do it because we have never trained to do that. We haven't built up the muscles, tendons, etc. that would allow for that. You could also probably jab the sharpened bamboo pole at his throat and it would most likely go through.

    I've seen martial arts demonstrations where a person has someone swing a baseball bat or 2x4 at their shin - and the wood breaks instead of their shin. But I also know from spending a lot of time working your shins - your shin bone becomes bigger and denser. Even runners - the more you run, the larger your shin bone becomes because of the abuse your legs are taking from running. Just like calouses - the body knows when an area is takin a beating and directs more bone to grow or more skin, etc.

    There are people in India that put needles into their eyes, through their cheeks (and don't bleed), pull cars with their penis, etc.

    To me it's physics and training. I still can't accept that as being a mystical force that is protecting or surrounding that person.

    No disrespect - just my experience.

    Michael
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Perhaps we are falling into a classic, Western arrogant position. We tend to take it for granted that all forms of ebnergy are known. Thus we dismiss Ch'i or wouivre because we have not isolated them nor established a unit of measurement. Western physics, with its basis in optics, may be a description of only one part of a multi-facetted universe!

    I believe that we can continue to discover other 'energies' and understand the laws that govern them but only if we are prepared to build on the experiences of such experts in using them. Studies continue into the energies generated in meditation, just as they have, in the East, for 5000 years.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Simon,

    A very good point. But, I don't believe it's being Western or arrogant to not believe hype instead of fact. To my reckoning - I have never seen a valid display of chi. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist - just that I haven't seen it.
    So, in the meantime, I've come to terms of what I can accept chi as being. I don't say that it doesn't exist - and I don't discount it. So, until I can see the mystical properties of chi performed - I'll associate it with something that I can grasp and believe.

    I agree with you that we can and probably do continue to discover energies that we never really thought existed before.

    Michael
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2005
    "I sha'n't believe until I experience it for myself," is the motto of the Buddhist student, alongside "I can't understand until I do it myself"!

    Until then, opinions are working hypotheses which can be changed. So much healthier: like changing our socks with some regularity.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Ther eis nothing mystical about Chi. It's scientific.
  • edited July 2005
    I have taught the martial arts for over 40 years and I've been fortunate enough to meet many incredible martial artists. But I have yet to see a true display of chi power. I have, however, seen many fake demonstrations and I even included a chapter on how to do a few in a book.

    Brian, I have seen white belts demonstrate the pointy pole into the neck trick. It’s all about technique and placement, not chi.

    I have seen some demos that looked pretty incredible, though still fake, and others that were laugh out loud funny. But to this date, I've never seen a legit one.

    I agree with some of the others who said chi was life force, energy. When you're sick, your chi is disturbed. When you strike without benefit of a properly aligned skeletal system, your chi is weak.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Great!

    Provide me with some of your scientific proof and I'll have no problem with it.

    Michael
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited July 2005
    I have only seen it done by my Grandmaster. I am not a master so I'm not proving anything. Honestly I don't care if you believe it or not.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Bushido,

    I haven't been doing martial arts for as long as you, but I do have 15+ years under my belt (no pun intended). I had a wife who was in Goju Ryu, a brother that was in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, an older brother that was in ju-jitsu, a sparring partner who was into Kung-Fu and I have done taekwon-do and combat ju-jitsu and aikido.
    My point is not to blab on about what I've done - but knowing people in these different styles and participating in my own - I've seen a number of demonstrations in various arts. I too have seen ones that were amazing and some that were just laugh out loud funny. I've seen people mess up and look very embarassed and I've seen people hurt very seriously when the "chi" just wasn't flowing right - or something...

    If someone ANYONE has any real chi ability - I've got a great deal for you. Check out

    http://gate8.com/bbs-tai/messages/5202.html or
    http://www.randi.org/research/

    If anyone has any special powers be they telepathic, occult, chi, whatever - you can claim a million dollars by simply demonstrating these powers in a very scientific way.

    Oddly enough, no one has ever been able to claim this money. Now, some people may say, "I'm not going to demonstrate my powers because they are not to be taken lightly." Or "there is nothing beneficial in demonstrating my powers to someone like James Randi." But!, if you did this - even if you're humble enough to not want the money - donate it to a charity. Help people that live in near poverty levels - use it for good!

    But, I've never seen a demonstration of chi.

    I'll get off my soap-box now.

    Michael
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    I sense some hostility because you made a statement stating that something is scientifically true and then don't like being asked to provide some fact. That's fine - I can accept that.

    I can't build a rocket ship, but I can provide someone with scientific proof that they exist.

    And honestly, comic... I really don't care if you do believe it. To each his own.

    Michael
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Here is something you might want to try for a change. Instead of finding something and looking into it's existence and looking for proof, take something and accept that it exists and then go and look to find out more about it. I bet your whole spectrum of thinking will change. It's easy to sit there and say prove it to me. It's harder to accept it for what it is and just go and find out what it's all about. I bet if you sit there and think about it there are plenty of things you know exist that you have never seen.
  • edited July 2005
    I have seen ch'i demonstrated. It wasn't anything fancy, but it was showing how it truly works. Since ch'i is the life force of everything, it is a force, not a body protection. I'm sure it could be used for one, but for all intents and purposes, it's not really a barrier of protection. What I saw and experienced was simply someone pushing their ch'i outside of there body and creating their visible aura, making their muscles grow and increase in durability for a short time, and I also had someone push their ch'i into me and use it to throw me horribly off balance and I fell. So since I have seen and felt it, I believe in it.
  • kinleekinlee Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Well, Chi or "Qi" can be viewed as vibrations. Yes "Chi" is a Chinese word and many kung-fu martial art experts have internal enery flow which can be felt inside their body. You may experience this if you practise Tai-Chi long enough from a GOOD MASTER.

    In the Buddhism, "Chi" refers to the energy of your toughts. It is said that your every thoughts are instantaneously broadcasted into the Universe. Universe energies or "Chi" will then formulate according to your positive or negative thoughts and relects back to you. When natural disaster strike, means the chi is reflecting from a source that is bad. These energies can also be in facial expression and physical health. Some people are healthy and vibrant, some are just dull and boring. The main cause is the thoughts. :) The utlimate cure is really within you.
  • edited July 2005
    Hi Kinlee
    You are right in my knowledge, I have been doing Tai Chi for well over 15 years. And I have felt my own energies or Chi and that which surrounds all of us.

    I can also recognize it every time I walk through a forest or hike up a mountain. Everytime I am out in the sun. I can feel the Chi of other living things.

    As for Scientific Proof, here in California, the medical community is doing secveral studies in to Chi and it's affect on the human body. So far they have discovered that people who do Tai Chi have lower heart rates, Lower blood pressure and other Health benefits. One group is studing to see if Chi is a magnetic field that interacts with the gravity on this earth.

    While I admit that there is at this moment no solid sceintific proof. I don't always need to have scientific proof to understand things. Because to me Science isn't always interested in things I have come to know and sometimes you just know.
  • kinleekinlee Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Hi MoonLgt,

    You are welcome.
    We attract energies. Law of attraction.

    I was practising the "Yang" Tai-Chi many years back and it was amazing. Well, science cannot proof everything at this time. The greatest science of all, is the science of love-kindness and compassion.

    Kin Lee :P
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2005
    Comic,

    I could do that. But I'd rather do this:

    Kalama Sutra - "Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience. Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do
    not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - the Buddha

    Honstly, it's actually better for me, I believe, to stop trying to ponder and weigh things that really (to ME - right now - at this point in time) have no real bearing or significance in my life. Some may say, "But chi is all around you! How can you not ponder or give it concern?" - because since I don't believe in its mystical properties and have managed my entire life at this time without believing in it - why should I bother with it now.

    So... I actually think the best thing to do is: you ponder and dwell on the things that are significant in your life and I'll ponder and dwell on the things that are significant in my life.

    And it's good for both of us.

    Michael
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