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Have You Ever Mindfully Broken a Precept To Serve a Greater Good?
Dakini
Veteran
The Mahayana concept of precepts being flexible, and relative, meaning: one isn't bound to them 100% and can break them if a greater good is served by it, has often been discussed here. How often does such a situation actually arise in real life? Has anyone ever faced this situation? Have you ever even been tempted? If so, do you mind sharing your experience with us?
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Some people may assume I was at work, their assumptions are not my fault. I was working on a project, cleaning, laundry, charity work, my partner is considered work...etc.
It's not a lie, its a vague truth.
Sometimes lying could save a person's life. Think of the people harboring Jews during wwii...or they can also save face. A paramedic picking up a woman in labor who defecated and urinates on the gurney isn't going to tell her that, when she's freaking out about her delivering a child on the side of a road with 2 male paramedic with a delivery kit.
Sexual misconduct? .... no that one is not an issue for me. I guess this means promiscuity, correct?
What other precept is left....stealing....well, what is theintent? Ponzi scheme is not the same as stealing bread to feed your family because you are without a job and living out of your car.
Sometimes my grandmother gives me the weirdest clothing items for gifts. She means so well... but I cannot break her heart and tell her that I would never wear them. There's always a story behind the item too, like, she was out shopping at some 'local shop' and 'this woman makes these completely by hand--can you believe it!?' So when she saw the item... she instantly thought of me. Sigh.
Some years ago I volunteered for a Crisis (suicide prevention) hotline. Lots of training and roleplaying first, and in one of them, we found out that we are expected to lie to the caller if it means keeping them on the phone if we believe they are in actual danger of trying to kill themselves. Not only that, we are expected to say whatever it takes to win their trust, knowing the best outcome is that you hear a knocking on the door in the background as the police arrive to drag the person to a psychiatric evaluation.
"No, we aren't going to call the police or ambulance."
"No, it's impossible to trace your call."
"No, we don't try to stop you from killing yourself."
"Yes, you have a right to kill yourself. I might do the same thing, in your situation."
"Yes, I'll come get your goldfish later and find them a home. Tell me where you live. No, I won't use the information to call the police."
All the time, your partner is calling the police.
When I found that out, I almost quit. I find it hard to lie to people, in any situation. I was also very serious about the precepts. I was asking someone to trust me so I could break that trust. I didn't think I could do it, no matter what. Shouldn't I try to honestly talk them out of killing themselves, instead?
But after thinking about it for a few days, I realized the precepts cannot trump compassion. We were a "Suicide prevention hotline". Said so right on the billboard and in the phone book. I had to assume, out of compassion, that anyone calling us wanted us to prevent them from killing themselves, even if they couldn't admit it to themselves. We were their last cry for help and in this case, precepts be damned, telling lies and betraying a trust was the exact right thing to do.
Sometimes breaking the precepts is not just excused, it's required if you want to live a life of compassion and helping others. Some choices you have to make require it.
Nice example.
It would be interesting to hear what the people you lied to have to say about this after their crisis is over.
Last night I did not answer a work call that I could have, and I do not feel bad about it at all. I figure she knows what she is doing by now.
"Suicide: permanent solution to temporary problem."
Great examples, everyone. I find that lying isn't necessary if, as @AMH says, "spin" will do the trick.
If you say it quick and casual enough, they take it as an "I don't know" not as a "I couldn't tell you, because I was told in confidence".....
They married. The reality was that she was lonely and wanted a baby and he was needing to stay in the country. Nevermind he had a history of womanizing and three failed marriages.
A baby later, they seperated and are divorcing. I finally tell her after two years how I trully felt about him and I ask her : "if I had expressed my doubts, would you have gotten married anyway? "
"Yes, probably." She said. I've never spoken bad about him buy their insane relationship frustrated me. I learned that no matter what kind of advice you may impart, most people only hear what they want to hear and only know what they heard....it's only when someone is willing to hear the truth. The brutal truth...that advice may work.
Maybe.
This is a sort of honesty and right speach question, isn't it?
Idk...hey, dakini? Does this skirt make me look fat? Lol
I believe we should never tune out our instincts, I learned that the hardest of way, over and over again. However, instinct and suspicion are 2 different things. Instinct can only tell you something isn't right, but not what that is. It's best not to jump on the suspicion wagon though, that tends to lead to some very hurtful language and acts.
if we treat them them just LETTERS and dont understand the MEANING(or purpose for them) then we are the true violators
2 monks walking down the street they pass a naked huirt woman laying on the side of the road the PRECEPT says to never touch a naked woman so the 1st monk passes her by the 2nd monk stops and picks her up.
which violated the precepts????
which one followed the LETTER and which one understood the purpuse behind the precept and all the other precepts;)
However, it's possible to take this "greater good" too far and start doing things that you think are good when they actually aren't. Killing abortion doctors would be a good example. There is a line there and seeing where that line is I think is a product of just practicing.
He came across a racoon on the road that had been struck by a car and appeared to be fatally injured and in pain. He thought that he should end it's suffering, but was afraid to do it and drove away.
In his view he had broken the precept against killing at that time. He had killed the compassion he had felt for the animal, due to his fear and allowed it's suffering to continue when he had the opportunity to end it.
Conceptually, there is a problem, however, in that there are some pretty weird people out there who have no real concept of right and wrong...for example, those who are amoral.
But I guess I am trying to codify our conceptualizing. :screwy:
But seriously, this is the first time I've even been in the closet with a job and it pretty much sucks... but it is of my own design and after weighing the pros and cons, I still stand by my decision. At least for the time being. If I saw this as a "forever" type job, I would probably feel differently.