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TM vs. Mindfulness
I am hoping some of you with experience can shed some light on some questions I have. I've decided after decades of searching to become Buddhist and I'm most interested in following the Theravada path.
This has led me to start practising mindful meditation which I have already been doing on and off again for years. As I've researched meditation I've learned a few things like not all meditation is created equally. Also watching a Youtube video on brain plasticity I've seen the merits displayed of TM and brain wave patterns.
I'm interested in other people's experience and especially those that have tried both or people who have read up more on differences.
Things I'm wondering:
1.) Can anyone learn TM? They say it is easy yet require a 15 hour class and large sum of money. I've heard if not done right it doesn't produce the desired results. If TM isn't about concentrating on a mantra what exactly do you do to transcend then?
2.) For people who have tried both what effects did you notice and which meditation did you prefer long term? I'd appreciate anyone who has taken more time to study the science and can give their opinion too.
3.) I read one person who said that doing TM could be harmful to ever doing mindfulness. I'm guessing practice will build neural pathways and as you try to concentrate on being mindful your mind will revert to TM. Anyone know anything about this and would mindful meditation make TM harder later?
For now I'm going to continue to do mindfulness as I really want to work on applying the eight fold path to my life and it seems to make sense to me. I'm sure I'm over-thinking this but if I'm going to meditate one way or another for years that is a lot of time dedicated to something. I'd like to make sure I've chosen informed and wisely.
This has led me to start practising mindful meditation which I have already been doing on and off again for years. As I've researched meditation I've learned a few things like not all meditation is created equally. Also watching a Youtube video on brain plasticity I've seen the merits displayed of TM and brain wave patterns.
I'm interested in other people's experience and especially those that have tried both or people who have read up more on differences.
Things I'm wondering:
1.) Can anyone learn TM? They say it is easy yet require a 15 hour class and large sum of money. I've heard if not done right it doesn't produce the desired results. If TM isn't about concentrating on a mantra what exactly do you do to transcend then?
2.) For people who have tried both what effects did you notice and which meditation did you prefer long term? I'd appreciate anyone who has taken more time to study the science and can give their opinion too.
3.) I read one person who said that doing TM could be harmful to ever doing mindfulness. I'm guessing practice will build neural pathways and as you try to concentrate on being mindful your mind will revert to TM. Anyone know anything about this and would mindful meditation make TM harder later?
For now I'm going to continue to do mindfulness as I really want to work on applying the eight fold path to my life and it seems to make sense to me. I'm sure I'm over-thinking this but if I'm going to meditate one way or another for years that is a lot of time dedicated to something. I'd like to make sure I've chosen informed and wisely.
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Comments
I imagine if you practiced TM you would have habitual tendancy to try to escape your experience?? That sounds a little harsh perhaps
I haven't tried it, so I am going to be biased, but I've gone through their websites and read all the papers they linked to (there are only like 7) and I have to say, it's not worth it.
Yes ShiftPlusOne TM to me feels a bit gimmicky and I became interested after seeing the video by Fred Travis. I just went back to find the video and now I realize he works for the Maharishi Univ and isn't an independent scientist as I originally thought. Also a scientific study I was looking at I now see is by the same guy.
I think with the amount of time mindfulness has been around I'm going to stick with it. Also I lost contact with a friend but, he actually took the course. He was very disillusioned and told me after the class the students compared mantras which was they weren't supposed to do. He was very upset that he had been told the mantra was personally written chosen for him when other students had the same one. Sadly I didn't know enough to get more info out of him about the actual practice.
Now that I realize TM was made by the Maharishi in the 1950s and doesn't come from old teaching I think I'll stick to mindfulness.
1)I've been doing mindfulness meditation and mehta bhavana( which I particularly love) for a months now.However, I use a tape by Bodhipaksa ( which I also love). What are your thoughts on using the guided meditation long term as opposed to not? Also, what is the recommended # of times one "should" meditate per day.
2)I still have a lot of chatter in my head & am wondering if there is a specific meditation to deal with that
3) About TM . I became interested just last month when I found out I have high blood pressure and that it really addresses anxiety.
I went to an introductory lecture last Sunday and felt that the lecturer was saying that TM is the only meditation that ( & this was the metaphor) " dove beneath the waves instead of sitting on top" ( she drew a diagram of this).
As I bristle at absolutes I found this , as well as the cost , offensive. I'm not sure I would spend the $ even if I had it.
I've decided instead to try and get deeper into the meditations I've been doing so if anyone has any suggestions please let me know.
4) Is there any specific meditation that addresses BP?
thanks so very much
Find someone around where you live that provides free or small donation meditation classes, instead. Any Buddhist group in the directory. Many UU churches have meditation classes. Save your money and don't go for the hype of the TM salesperson. Meditation as a stress and BP reliever doesn't require more than basic breath orientated meditation.
But they're still around, and still teaching their version of meditation.
Sekha - stuvongautama@yahoo.com
Chanting any mantra is calming, just like taking a tranquiliser. Buddhism offers more than palliative masking. Buddhism offers a range of techniques including learning how to fly, internal central heating - Tumo and so on. Circus Buddhism is available too . . .
Mantras in Buddhist practice can be used prior to mindfulness practice as a way of bringing the mind to calm and focus. Becoming aware, changing our lifestyle, following the dharma is a complete path of transformation.
:om:
I think TM would be classified as a type of samatha medititation because chanting calms and concentrates the mind. But mindfulness of breathing is just as effective and it's free!
TM is a business to be sure. They are a righteous bunch with no end of confidence. I do think it is important to separate the TM business from the core meditation techniques. The core TM method is often misunderstood to be a "chanting meditation." This is because it uses a mantra. But the important thing is not the mantra per se, but the relationship that one is taught to that mantra and how it relates to meditating. This relationship and instruction are probably the best description around of how to experience samatha - or the experience of Self in its pure and un-disturbed nature. Is TM worth it? Well, it is worth it in the following sense. It is first-class instruction which is effective and that big price usually gets students to actually apply themselves to that meditation for some significant time. If you can afford it, you get good instruction. If one wants a package deal with answers to everything else, TM can offer you that as well.
Is it better than Mindful Meditation? If the instruction for Mindful Meditation were as precise, repeatable and universally available as that of TM, probably not. The difficulty with Mindful Meditation is that the instruction is often quite variable and imprecise. The instruction really matters, and that is where TM truly shines; they get it right every time.
Let me give you an example of what the Mindful Meditation (MM) instruction might look like if it were to be as good as TM:
Sit comfortably (most fall asleep if they lay down) somewhere, preferably free of distractions like noise, interruptions and pets jumping on you. Close your eyes and maybe take a couple of comfortable deep breaths just to key yourself to the idea that you are about to meditate. Realize that what we are going to achieve is to experience ones self at a very fundamental level and transcend thinking. That is, experience being (Being if you like) without the distraction of thinking. Remember that no thought is worth chasing. No thought is more valuable than this experience. Set with this attitude, encourage the mind to abide with your breathing. Don't think about the breathing, don't try to make your breathing do anything. Just allow your awareness to be with that breathing as it comes and goes and pauses in between. It is like hanging out with your breath, not having a conversation with it. Thoughts will come up and distract you. This is natural. Don't worry about them. Don't chase them. Don't entertain them. Just let them go. Simply, when you notice that you are thinking some thought, seeing some image, hearing some sound - encourage your mind to return to hanging our with your breath. It sounds draconian and boring. Surprise! It is neither. The process is, above all, done without effort. You will come to love, I mean really love that deep silent peace that is the truth of who you are. Continue this for a while. More than about 20 minutes at a time may leave you pretty spacy for the day. That can be OK if you have a weekend to be spacy with. Twice a day is about right. As you end your meditation, simply drop the constant connection to the breath. Allow your mind to do whatever it likes. Normal thinking will return within about 2 minutes. Perhaps, your breath has become a bit slow and shallow. If so, pick up the pace and depth a bit as part of getting back to normal waking consciousness. Keep your eyes closed until you feel normal and then slowly open them. A gentle return is extremely important.
If Mindful Meditation were to use an instruction like this, it would rival TM. Most descriptions of how to do Mindful Medication fall short of this.
Yes, I have done both meditations and find them to be basically the same if MM is well taught. Both produce the same result. One has an organization you can connect with if you want, the other is something that is of your own making. If your results start to wander off, it is because you forgot something in the instruction. TM offers free checking to make sure you are always doing it right. MM has no structured way to ensure you get it back. I offer you this MM instruction, which should prove to be pretty reliable. If your results fall away, then re-read this instruction.
I do not see TM as a fraud or evil. They have become a big organization doing various things they see as important. Joining in on that is available for those who want that. But, for folks who are suspicious of organizations, one can meditate transcendentally and get the benefits without the organization. TM does not own that. That existed long before any organization called TM. There is a big difference between knowing about meditation and actually meditating regularly. The price and structure of TM is a big aide to many in keeping that regularity, at least for quite some time.
Pat Quinn
Portland, Oregon
well what we do know is that there are many types of meditation in this world with different goals. Not everyone wants meditation for enlightenment, whatever is beneficial for them is all well and good.
I learned TM which is mantra meditation to begin with. I moved on to breath meditation on my own. For me it works much better. The body is a foundation for mindfulness.
Any practice that brings you into contact with the silent level of present moment awareness can be called meditation. It is a routine that allows you to experience a deep settling in your mind which is conducive to insight.
Unfortunately TM will not teach you about the 4 Noble Truths or the 8 Fold Path to freedom. Not to mention dependent origination and emptiness.
Best Wishes
"Hoopdeedoo", "yowzinga" and "aahoooga!" are all still available, so act fast...
I have been involved with meditative communities since I was born in 1949 to my mother, who had been a direct student of Paramahansa Yogananda.
I know many people who practice TM and have done so since the 1970's. I do not see changes in their behavior, or an increase in peace or wisdom. They continue to be hooked and strung by their emotions as there were when I first me them so long ago.
For that matter, my mother died as much a slave to her emotions as when I was a child growing up.
Involved with a dharma group (taught by a lama) for over a decade, this is the only place where I have watched the participants grow and change. We work together often on fund-raising projects as we support the lama .. and it's interesting to watch how the dynamics of any given member mellows out over the years. Especially those who come in as newcomers hyper-reactive and touchy, easily annoyed or angered.
My sister, practicing Theravandan with a bikkhu in a different city, for 15 years now, has noticef the same thing within her own dharma group.
And this is something neither of us has noticed outside of Buddhism, this changing of one's habitual responses to life. Psychology defines "learning" as "a change in outer behavior". It would appear that Buddhism is therefore a path of learning.
In my observation, I do not include TM under that umbrella.
This course is offered free and food and shelter is provided. You only have to provide transportation to get there. Checkout http://www.dhamma.org/ if you want to find a course close to you. It is recommended you donate if you can to the Sangha you attend.
Also I highly recommend watching a documentary called The Dhamma Brothers about this same 10 day course being given in Alabama prisons. I found it very interesting and it made me much less apprehensive after seeing the benefits described by others. The video is available on Netflix live which is where I watched it.
The point to MM is to observe the chatter rather than reacting to it. If you've ever noticed a feeling in your chest when you are afraid you will know what I mean. After practicing meditation for a few years I don't tend to react to my thoughts anymore without first observing and analyzing them. I suffered from debilitating anxiety and panic attacks and now I don't have a hint of it anymore.