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Good and not so good ways of letting go of thoughts?

maartenmaarten Veteran
edited April 2013 in Meditation
Lately I feel that I can let go of my thoughts relatively easily, but I am wondering if I am zoning out too much. The technique I use is to focus on the breath and on pleasant sensations in my head (like a warm feeling in my face, or a light spacious feeling in my skull). This feels good, but afterwards I often feel not so good, I get a stiff wood-like feeling in my head (for lack of a better way to describe it) that lasts for hours (or the rest of the day). Maybe the absence of thought has caused some kind of stress? If I'd be listening to music and watching movies during the day, I think I don't get the stiff feeling. It's like the lack of content in my head leaves me with a dry feeling.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?
If someone has some ideas on this I would appreciate it.

Comments

  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Perhaps you are forcing it too much, pushing the mind on the breath and pushing aside thoughts with a bit too much effort. It could very well be that, because it is a common 'mistake'. It has to come naturally. If it does, you'll feel relaxed in body and mind for a long time after the meditation as well.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Lets start with the basic contention Maarten, that it is desirable/necessary to let go of thoughts.
    I was taught something different. That we should simply allow thoughts to drift by like clouds in the sky.
    No grasping and therefore no letting go.
    howLucy_Begoodriverflowmfranzdorf
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    maarten said:


    Maybe the absence of thought has caused some kind of stress?
    It's like the lack of content in my head leaves me with a dry feeling.
    If someone has some ideas on this I would appreciate it.

    It is unlikely that the cause of it is the absence of thought.
    As far as I am aware, there are no receptors to determine wet or dry in the skull.
    What do you wish to achieve?
  • Hi, @maarten. Yes, this is very familiar to me. The stiff feeling in your head is caused by some kind of solidified desire/intention. It could even be caused by the intention to stop the thoughts. When this issue comes up, it would be very useful to meditate a second time, and study the stiff feeling. When you comprehend it, it will be easier to release.

    Simply stopping thoughts is not the goal, though it is a very useful skill to have on the path to the goal. Once the mind has settled down, you need to give it something to do to avoid the zoned out feeling. The classic prescription is to attend to rapture, concentration, and analysis of the qualities of mental phenomena.
  • I wonder if walking meditation would help the lack of mobility and deadening feeling?
    mfranzdorf
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    If you are not pleased with the results of your meditation then I'd suggest allowing the object of your meditation to be whatever arises on it's own and that you allow yourself to simply be an observer of that.
    Zoning out, if that's your description of the lessoning of awareness, is usually the result of an intent to not be where you are.
    It's a lack of willingness to accept what is arising.
    Gently returning ones attention to this present moment without judging where you were, is the usual solution to Zoning out.
    Lucy_Begood
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited April 2013
    How long have you been using 'in your head meditation'? I would move the sensation based awareness into other parts of the body.

    This from the Aro course

    But doesn’t meditation make you slack and spacey?

    Some kinds of meditation can have that effect, but this is not the intention of the techniques taught by Aro. (The ability to stay cool, calm, and collected under pressure is often useful – and that is a benefit of the methods we teach.)

    Aro also teaches a variety of techniques for counteracting the urge to space out in meditation and in life. Meditation should make you energetic and perceptive, not lax and vague.


    Let's start at the very beginning
    A very good place to start
    When you read you begin with A-B-C
    The Sound of Music

    http://aromeditation.org/
    The course is excellent after about five weeks they try and get you involved in mentoring, meetings, wearing bed sheets (not a KKK thing) and the usual soft sell and support us monetarily even though we all work, type thing. That may be required for some but no need for others. The advice on technique starting with as little as five minutes meditation I can not fault.
    If the course ends, then I may well start all over again . . .

    Hope that is of use :wave:
  • Thanks for all the comments!

    @Sabre
    It has to come naturally. If it does, you'll feel relaxed in body and mind for a long time after the meditation as well.
    I guess this is why I was referring to "good" and "not so good" ways. Let's say that (as is the common case) it's hard to not get caught up in your thoughts. Then (as perhaps is my case) you find a way to get less caught up, but it does not come naturally. What to do next? Go back to getting caught up in the thoughts? How do you go from "getting caught up" to "letting go naturally"? Also, isn't it somehow natural to get caught up in thoughts (so any movement away from that is in a way unnatural)?
    Jeffrey
  • @Citta
    Lets start with the basic contention Maarten, that it is desirable/necessary to let go of thoughts. I was taught something different. That we should simply allow thoughts to drift by like clouds in the sky. No grasping and therefore no letting go.
    Can you explain what you do when a thought does come up? I think that what I am doing is to not supply energy to my thoughts (or even: cut off the energy supply). It's like I have figured out (to some extent) how it feels to spend energy in thinking, and then to become very lazy in spending this energy. When a thought comes up, I feel that my mind is activated and starts to spend energy on that thought, and then I somehow take that energy away so that the thought does not become stronger. Is this similar to your "no grasping"?
  • @Zero
    What do you wish to achieve?
    I think what I would like to achieve is well-being, happiness, and pleasure. I know that the real goal is liberation, but that scares the hell out of me (I sometimes have sensations of reduced identification with my "persona", which can be seen as a sort of liberation, but it freaks me out, my sense of safety is strongly related to my sense of being this body, even though I am aware that this is a wrong view and doesn't provide any real safety, and rather is a cause of suffering).

    I did notice about a year ago that my mediation practice made my mind more flexible and creative, which was something I enjoyed (but lately I have not been feeling the same effect, although its probably still the case that meditation has an overall positive effect).
  • @fivebells
    The stiff feeling in your head is caused by some kind of solidified desire/intention.
    That could be, I'm usually struggling with desires. Often the reason why I meditate is to take a break from feeling desire.
    When this issue comes up, it would be very useful to meditate a second time, and study the stiff feeling.
    Okay, thanks, I will try to focus my awareness on the stiff feeling (not thinking about the stiff feeling, but feeling it fully).
    Once the mind has settled down, you need to give it something to do to avoid the zoned out feeling. The classic prescription is to attend to rapture, concentration, and analysis of the qualities of mental phenomena.
    This is partly why I focus on the pleasant sensations in my head. I'm hoping to induce rapture. I know that I should not be hoping for anything, but I find it really hard not to. I usually think to myself "how nice is this feeling, I hope it will get stronger" lol. Then when it does not get stronger, I get bored, and feel like I'm zoning out. Any tips on what to do in this situation? Perhaps I should try to sit longer?
    Or perhaps focus on more on the breath, to increase concentration? (I will try this).
    Can you explain what you mean by "analysis of the qualities of mental phenomena"?
    Jeffrey
  • @Jeffrey
    I wonder if walking meditation would help the lack of mobility and deadening feeling?
    I think I'd be zoning out during walking meditation as well.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited April 2013
    maarten said:

    Thanks for all the comments!

    @Sabre

    It has to come naturally. If it does, you'll feel relaxed in body and mind for a long time after the meditation as well.
    I guess this is why I was referring to "good" and "not so good" ways. Let's say that (as is the common case) it's hard to not get caught up in your thoughts. Then (as perhaps is my case) you find a way to get less caught up, but it does not come naturally. What to do next? Go back to getting caught up in the thoughts? How do you go from "getting caught up" to "letting go naturally"? Also, isn't it somehow natural to get caught up in thoughts (so any movement away from that is in a way unnatural)?

    What's natural is different for everybody. Some are thinking all day long, and identify with their thoughts to a large extend, others not so much. With the right practice, the 'balance' may shift and the natural thing in meditation will become silence. It will be easy to let go of thoughts. This won't happen over night, probably. But it will become stronger with practice. If I had a nice meditation, my natural state is without thoughts after the meditation as well.

    For deeper peace you must realize thoughts are not helpful. They are an obstacle in meditation and you are not interested in them. But they are not the enemy either, because that might result in using too much force again. You are simply not interested in thoughts, whatever they say. They are not you or yours. The more you realize this, the less thoughts will have a grip on you. They will slowly dwindle away.

    To let go you have to find a switch of mind. If you try to let go, that's not letting go, that's another trying. You have to realize how all trying won't get you to peace. Yes, you can use some 'doing' in the meditation, but if you have to, only occasionally. For example, you can steer the mind to the breath every once in a while. But if you push it on the breath constantly, it'll stress you out. Every once in a while you can hush the mind, but if you push thoughts out constantly, it'll also stress you out. You'll tense your face, which results in the feelings you had. I think this has been the case; you used to much force, too much will. A good soccer coach is not yelling to his players all the time, they will rebel. He only instructs them from time to time, and in between he sits at the side looking on.

    These are all little ways of looking at it, but in the end it comes down to taking away our wanting and not wanting. Most thoughts are created by wanting and not wanting. The remaining thoughts are easily stilled.


    I think this may be useful for you:

    http://brahmstalks.wordpress.com/how-to-meditate/
    It also says:
    A Common Problem: Trying to Go Too Deep, Too Fast

    A very common problem for most beginning meditators is trying to do the meditation, in other words to make it happen and to try to make it go too deep too fast. But think about it. How can you do letting go? How can you make letting go happen? You can’t! It’s a contradiction in terms. Instead a skilful meditator creates the conditions that allow letting go to happen, and at its own pace. This takes practice.

    Have fun!
    Sabre
  • @how
    Zoning out, if that's your description of the lessoning of awareness, is usually the result of an intent to not be where you are.
    @lobster
    I would move the sensation based awareness into other parts of the body.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I just meditated 5 minutes, trying out if I was resisting something to come up. I did not notice anything (in this very short space of time), but I did find that I could move my attention to my chest instead of my head, I will experiment with that a bit more (the suggestion that I'm doing in-my-head meditation resonates with me, in general when I connect more with the rest of my body I tend to feel better, I do live in my head a lot).
  • thanks @Sabre, I think I can become aware of using too much force and intent, and step back a bit. I just meditated 5 minutes and had the idea that I can use more of the mindfulness you have when you are listening to a good friend (not trying to achieve a deep meditation state).
    Sabre
  • maarten said:

    Okay, thanks, I will try to focus my awareness on the stiff feeling (not thinking about the stiff feeling, but feeling it fully).

    Focusing on the feeling is likely to intensify it. By study it, I meant study its causes and conditions. When does it arise/intensify, when does it pass/fade away? What were you experiencing just before the arising and passing? Are those antecedents causally linked to the feeling? If so, can you tamper with those antecedents to affect the arising and passing away?

    That is the insight approach. Another concentration-based approach which I have found very effective is the breath-energy manipulation meditation described in this essay. Try doing it with the stiff feeling.
    Another technique is to breathe through the pain. If you can become sensitive to the breath sensations that course through the body each time you breathe, you will notice that you tend to build a tense shell around the pain, where the energy in the body doesn't flow freely. This, although it's a kind of avoidance technique, actually increases the pain. So think of the breath flowing right through the pain as you breathe in and out, to dissolve away this shell of tension. In most cases, you will find that this can relieve the pain considerably. For instance, when I had malaria, I found this very useful in relieving the mass of tension that would gather in my head and shoulders. At times it would get so great that I could scarcely breath, so I just thought of the breath coming in through all the nerve centers in my body — the middle of the chest, the throat, the middle of the forehead and so forth — and the tension would dissolve away. However, there are some people though who find that breathing through the pain increases the pain, which is a sign that they are focusing improperly. The solution in that case is to focus on the opposite side of the body. In other words, if the pain is in the right side, focus on the left. If it's in front, focus on the back. If it's in your head — literally — focus on your hands and feet. (This technique works particularly well with migraine, by the way: If, for example, your migraine is on the right side, focus on the breath sensations the left side of your body, from the neck on down.)
    I recommend reading the whole thing. The basic idea is that once you've got stable attention on a pleasurable region, you flow the breath energy (and the pleasurable sensation) through the tense region.
    maarten said:

    This is partly why I focus on the pleasant sensations in my head. I'm hoping to induce rapture. I know that I should not be hoping for anything, but I find it really hard not to. I usually think to myself "how nice is this feeling, I hope it will get stronger" lol.

    At this stage in your practice, there is no problem with desire for pleasure in and of itself. The trick is to keeping attending to the breath, rather than the desire or the pleasure. But choosing to attend to the breath for the sake of achieving that desire is perfectly appropriate.
    maarten said:

    Then when it does not get stronger, I get bored, and feel like I'm zoning out. Any tips on what to do in this situation? Perhaps I should try to sit longer?

    I suggest switching goals. The pleasure is a tool for staying contented and concentrated on the breath, which then provides the foundation for the release of stress. If you treat the pleasure as an end in itself, it can get you in serious trouble.
    maarten said:

    Perhaps I should try to sit longer? Or perhaps focus on more on the breath, to increase concentration? (I will try this).

    Both worth trying. The key principle here is that once the mind is content, you have to give it something to do. What I do is scan the body for tension and unpleasant sensations, then do the "breathing through the pain" meditation (described above) with that sensation until it releases. If the stiff feeling comes up, you can work with that, if not, there will probably be something else to work with.
    maarten said:

    Can you explain what you mean by "analysis of the qualities of mental phenomena"?

    And what is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen? There are mental qualities that are skillful & unskillful, blameworthy & blameless, gross & refined, siding with darkness & with light [§§2-3]. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen.
    (I recommend reading the whole thing.)
    maartenJeffrey
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited April 2013
    maarten said:

    thanks @Sabre, I think I can become aware of using too much force and intent, and step back a bit. I just meditated 5 minutes and had the idea that I can use more of the mindfulness you have when you are listening to a good friend (not trying to achieve a deep meditation state).

    Good analogy.

    When listening to a friend, you don't try to pull out the words you want to hear, you just wait for whatever he has to say.

    In meditation you can try all sorts of techniques and approaches, but in the end you just have to let go and it'll all unfold. Very counter intuitive, but that's the way it goes. It's the nature of the mind to be still and peaceful, but we keep disturbing it with thinking and less obvious mental movement through wanting and not wanting.

    I'm happy you recognized the way you stilled the thoughts got you a bit more tense, so couldn't be right. Once you still the mind the right way, it'll leave a very deep inner contentment that can last for hours or days even. Imagine it's like your neighbor switching off the grass mower after he's been mowing the yard for a few hours. To still thoughts is similar. Finally silence!

    And sometimes you let go and you get a bunch of noise in return.. that happens as well. ;)

    With metta,
    Sabre

    maartenJeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Thoughts present themselves as little doors we find. When we open them we are drawn into a whole world perhaps by a little memory tied in with a wiff of the senses. The skill is to be in control of which doors you enter and choose the ones which are not as caught in delusion (I guess). This is how a bodhisattva creates a pure land. Until then we can practice. I agree that our 'running commentary' is not necessary. However our practice is not worth a hill of beans if we cannot engage in the world and if we are making us fall asleep and calling that samadhi. The mind should be sharp and active rather than just a statue of nothingness. The opposite warning is not to become so agitated that we cannot sit with the distractions and have the calm to the extent that we can choose wisely to which doors we attend and how we attend them.
    lobster
  • Just be a witness to your meditation, not a participant.
    howlobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2013
    Seeing that the thought is not you I think is very powerful. So if you see an ego who is foolish you can just smile and realize that enlightenment is a process and you do not deserve condemnation just you are learning at your own rate.

    There is that first hurt from seeing your foolishness and then aggression towards anyone who pointed it out. But if you remember that the foolish thought is of no consequence very powerfully cuts that neurosis out. We keep faith that deep down our minds are perceptive and we will have wise or good moments and also foolish. This allows us to grow rather than busying ourselves with the spiraling feeling of hurt and wanting to fill up somehow to protect ourselves from that hurt.
    lobster
  • Jeffrey said:



    There is that first hurt from seeing your foolishness and then aggression towards anyone who pointed it out.

    You're being foolish!

    Now don't be aggressive toward me.
    Jeffrey
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