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Scatterbrained after sitting + how to interpret bliss?
Invincible_summer
Heavy Metal DhammaWe(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
in Meditation
Just so you know what type of meditation I'm doing, I've been doing a lot of sits based on the instructions found in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's With Each and Every Breath. Samatha? Anyways, I've had some questions regarding stuff that's happened during and after sitting.
1) Just the other day, I had a very "good" sit where my concentration was strong and I feel like I had a lot of awareness of the sensations going on in my body. But after I got up, I felt like my brain was really scattered. I tried to write an e-mail and it felt like I was writing on auto-pilot, like "I" wasn't really doing it. Despite the awareness and concentration I had during meditation, it seemed that it all disappeared after I stood up. Even if I tried to concentrate on my breath while doing tasks, I felt like I wasn't really too focused. This lasted for a couple of hours at least.
Why would this be? Is there anything I should do about it?
2) I had a handful of consecutive sits where I experienced peaceful/blissful "waves" of energy pass through my body combined with concentration. Of course, this was very exciting. However, the past few sits I've done have not been as fruitful. I just sit and nothing really happens, despite 4-6 sits where those sensations came quite consistently.
Today I did a sit where I started to notice that peaceful/blissful sensation build up in my chest, but when I went to focus on it, it evaporated.
Why could that be? Perhaps I'm subconsciously grasping too much for those pleasurable sensations? Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way.
1) Just the other day, I had a very "good" sit where my concentration was strong and I feel like I had a lot of awareness of the sensations going on in my body. But after I got up, I felt like my brain was really scattered. I tried to write an e-mail and it felt like I was writing on auto-pilot, like "I" wasn't really doing it. Despite the awareness and concentration I had during meditation, it seemed that it all disappeared after I stood up. Even if I tried to concentrate on my breath while doing tasks, I felt like I wasn't really too focused. This lasted for a couple of hours at least.
Why would this be? Is there anything I should do about it?
2) I had a handful of consecutive sits where I experienced peaceful/blissful "waves" of energy pass through my body combined with concentration. Of course, this was very exciting. However, the past few sits I've done have not been as fruitful. I just sit and nothing really happens, despite 4-6 sits where those sensations came quite consistently.
Today I did a sit where I started to notice that peaceful/blissful sensation build up in my chest, but when I went to focus on it, it evaporated.
Why could that be? Perhaps I'm subconsciously grasping too much for those pleasurable sensations? Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way.
1
Comments
Walking or washing the dishes are common examples of simple activities to start with. Writing an email is pretty cognitively demanding, and it could take a while to develop the skill to meditate at the same time. Can you give some more detail as to how you are meditating? Re-reading the instructions you are following from Each and Every Breath and noting any differences here would be a good place to start. What did you go to focus on? Generally, you don't want to focus on the pleasure itself, you want to rest attention on the sensations and let the pleasure happen. This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but although the pleasure is arising dependent on the sensations, it is actually a separate phenomenon from them.
Also there is always a birth, manifestation, and death of any phenomena. Again this is actually a good thing because it means we can stop grasping and craving which are unsatisfying. Meditation has a focus of manifesting, but it is the nature of mind to diffuse outward again.
Let it abide. Be relaxed about/with it. Fivebells has offered you good advice. Do something slow simple and engaging afterwards. If you tighten around it, it will escape through your grasp. No grasp, no big deal . . .
It sounds subtle. Don't worry it, don't ascribe meaning or importance to it. It is a form of emptiness after all . . .
Be gentle.
First answer. Don't look for anything. Just follow the instructions. It comes and goes.
I'm smiling because I know what you are talking about so well. You are doing it exactly right my friend.
"Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way."
Follow the instructions and don't look for anything, just look. Then you tell me what happens when you are doing it the right way.
I think that was the better answer but just because it's fun, the second answer I received is: one doesn't necessarily know when progress is being made.
My elaboration:
Say you're a runner and you have been given a training regimen by your coach. Somedays you have good runs where everything feels great and you can run forever. Then somedays you are tired and the run doesn't feel so great. On those days your coach has a smile on his face and says good work. You think, good work??, I didn't even push the pace today!!... One doesn't necessarily know when the hardest most important work is being done.
Okay so to go into detail about how I use With Each and Every Breath:
"Focusing on the Breath":
Step 1 "Find a comfortable way of breathing": I do (A) ("maintain a sense of relaxation in the areas that have been feeling strained toward the end of
the in-breath") when I sit.
Step 2 "Stay with each in-and-out breath": I don't use any meditation words - I just focus.
Step 3 "... expand awareness to different parts of the body...": I don't follow Thanissaro Bhikkhu's suggested map exactly, as I couldn't remember what it was when I sat down to meditate. I start at the abdomen/navel like he suggests, but then I focus on the upper legs, then lower legs, then feet, then upwards to the solar plexus, shoulders, upper arms, lower arms, hands, then up to the neck and then finally end at the crown of my head.
I don't focus on energy entering through these areas though. I tend to picture the breath flowing into these areas from the nose. So like nose--down through body--navel.
I'm not quite sure how long I spend on each area. I tend to do a general "body scan" once or twice, then just focus on the areas that are tense until they are not tense or I feel that I've spent enough time on them.
Step 4 "Choose a spot to settle down": I typically choose the tip of the nose, sometimes both the tip of the nose and the abdomen. I've only tried one other location on a whim - between the eyebrows - and it just gave me a tense face and a headache.
Step 5 "Spread your awareness from that spot so that it fills the body through every in-and
out breath.": I do this by picturing the breath energy flowing through my body like a diagram of the nervous system. I guess it sort of goes along with the next step (Step 6: "Think of the breath energy coursing through the whole body with every in-and-out
breath.")
Actually, I tend to do these things out of the order given: I usually go Step 1,2,4,3,5. That's just what felt "natural" to me. Perhaps I could try doing it in the exact order? I guess steps 2 and 4 sort of seemed like the same thing to me, but I can see why Thanissaro Bhikkhu may have chosen this particular sequence.
"Common Problems":
- Pain: I tend to do (1) - " Don’t change your posture and don’t focus attention directly on the pain." I've been trying the breath flowing into the pain thing, but it doesn't work for me. I haven't tried asking myself questions as it seems too distracting and the likeliness of it breaking off into a monkey-mind thing is very high.
- Wandering thoughts: I return to the breath
As for what I focused on when the pleasurable sensations came up, I made a mental note that a new sensation was occurring then tried to concentrate on the quality of it; where it was originating from, how intensely, where it was spreading to, etc.
@Jeffrey - Could you elaborate on "the mind diffus[ing] outward?"
@lobster - Thanks for the reminder. It's just that the experiences are so strong and profound - and I'm new to this type of practice - so it's difficult for me to not try and ascribe some sort of meaning to it.
@fixingjulian - Thanks for the analogy. As a runner, it really helps! Funny how sometimes our minds are so compartmentalized that we don't apply lessons we learn from one aspect of our lives into the others. When I was doing zazen, I easily kept the "don't judge your sitting" mindset. Now that I'm trying a more Theravadan style of meditation, I seemed to have forgotten the lessons I learned in from all that zen sitting.
Let me put it another way. I once met someone who was in the 'god realm'. He had entered and stayed in a euphoric, blissed out state. Having been in similar places myself for a long time, I knew how painful it would be to leave. Because of circumstances, I was unable to help him at the dharma centre, he was crazed by bliss. I am not suggesting this will happen to you.
What I am suggesting is how the Sufis deal with such states:
The experiences of reality are as diverse as the people in the world. Grace can manifest in thousand-fold ways. The student of Sufism soon learns that it is often better not to disclose ones own inner experiences, as inner experiences are always different with different people. To talk about them is somehow to influence the listener, and to create in him, or her, a kind of expectation for similar experiences. But the two experiences will never be the same. We are all unique beings, and our experience of God is also unique. Although a Sufi may be inwardly “drunk,” he is outwardly sober. Though Sufis can know and understand the inner state of one another, outwardly they will never profess to this knowledge except in the rarest of circumstances. They prefer not to attract attention to themselves by showing evidence of inner states or powers that are not accessible to average individuals.
http://www.sufischool.org/students/ps1.html
I apologise for not translating this into dharma talk but I hope the gist and not the unchewed Lobster shell will be useful . . .
Chill
:wave:
In meditation, we often "play the edge" of how much "selfing" activity is necessary to go about our lives. Sometimes we overshoot the target and end up in a state that is not optimal for functioning in our everyday context. The Buddha makes a big deal of bliss and rapture in the Anapanasati Sutta -- not because there is anything inherently special about those experiences -- but because these states signal a point of stillness and ease (better put, satisfaction -- the opposite of dukkha). But although this is technically "the end of dukkha", we can't just stop there because it only temporarily apprehends dukkha. We will still need to cultivate a skillful garden of the mind such that dukkha is less likely to arise off the cushion.
In bliss and rapture, we come to rest just at the point in the chain of dependent origination that is between feeling (vedana) and craving (tanha). This is a powerful place to be, because it allows us to co-opt and halt the processes that lead to suffering, and then cultivate skillful habits of mind (bhavana). The aim is to bring the mind into such stillness and peace that we become very sensitive to the movement of the mind in any direction that might lead to needless suffering. Unless we're in a retreat setting and have the luxury of spending most of our time meditating and dwelling in the jhanas, the benefit is not so much immediate as cumulative. As fivebells notes, it will take time to learn how to best use this newfound subtlety of mind in a skillful way in your daily life. Bhavana is also about building skill, no different than learning a new sport or language. Meditation helps to support development in the other aspects of the Eightfold Path, although you'll have to consciously contemplate and practice those ethical and intellectual practices as well.
So, keep at it.
I didn't intend it as a way to avoid the strange feeling you had after meditating that time. The causes and conditions of that feeling are probably fairly complex and idiosyncratic, and to understand them you'll probably need to experience the precursors to the feeling a few more times. If it doesn't come up anymore, it's not worth worrying about, but I assume you asked about it because you're worried about its effects if it continues to arise.
I can't say much more than that at this stage, except that it may well (but may not) be a feeling which was already there and you just didn't notice before, and that once its causes and conditions are better understood there may be a more direct remedy in terms of them. You might consider beginning each session with metta meditation as described on p. 23 and pp 26-28. I find this very helpful for settling the mind and priming it to attend to pleasurable sensations. It's also useful to end this way: I can't tell you whether this would help with the post-meditation experience you described. For me, this is a bit of a complex meditation, especially when I start to think about spreading the breath energy elsewhere in the body. I generally get better results when I imagine breathing through the area directly, because it's simpler. It's only worth trying it this way if it doesn't strain your imagination, but keep in mind that the whole process is imaginary and intended as a tool for training the mind to attention and rest. There's no need to be anatomically correct about it. Sounds good, I generally don't spend long on this step at all, just look for a part of the body where there are pleasant sensations and go straight there. Don't be afraid to try other places. I generally use one of the chakras. If there is great distress causing unpleasant sensations in all the chakras, I can usually find pleasant sensations in my extremities. This is good, and you'll probably get even better results if you give some attention to spreading the sense of ease, comfort and pleasure from the starting point to other areas as you expand. This is crucial in my practice. The order you're doing it in is fine. The difference between steps 2 and 4 are that after the survey in step 3, you can more reliably identify a spot where "the breath energy is clear and you find it easy to stay focused."
Reading through his instructions again as I go through your notes, I am surprised that he doesn't make more of the sense of comfort and pleasure. For me, that has been crucial. He gives more emphasis to it in "Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death", which I read before Each and Every Breath came out, so that is what I have been thinking of.
He does emphasize it more in the introduction: I would add that attending to something which results in pleasure leads to a positive feedback loop, where the pleasure rewards the attention which tightens the attention's focus which increases the pleasure, etc. This is the way into jhana for me. I think I got this perspective from Leigh Brasington.
However, it's also important not to let the mind collapse down on the pleasure, as this will ruin attentional component of the feedback loop, as you've seen. Try the approach in "Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death", linked above. Again, for me, spreading the sense of ease, comfort and pleasure along with the breath energy has been crucial. You might try dropping the noting. It can be useful for both concentration and insight, but it's mostly useful when you're trying to take yourself apart as directly as possible by seeing the self-as-it-is and understanding its drawbacks. That's a different goal than Thanissaro's meditation has, the goal here is to establish a secure foundation for a new kind of self which is more independent and attentive and hence more capable of taking itself apart (see pp 16-17 again.) It's more independent because it relies on pleasure fabricated from breath sensations rather than more external phenomena, and it's more attentive because it's actively and explicitly involved in that fabrication. Also, it's more capable of taking itself apart because it observed its own fabrication.
Just leaving attention resting on the sensations associated breathing in the area you've chosen might prove to be more effective.
If that's the meaning, then I would have to say that I agree with the sentiment, but practically speaking I don't know if I agree. Shouldn't the discussion of spiritual experiences be a way to ensure that people aren't getting hung up on the wrong thing? @Glow - Yeah, I think this is where I suppose I misinterpreted the sutta a bit. I felt like because bliss was emphasized in the Anapanasati sutta, it was something that I should sort of chase after or cultivate. I didn't really think of it in the way that you mentioned. Thanks!
Also, that Kornfield book is one I've been meaning to read! I should get on it soon.
@fivebells - I appreciate your detailed and thoughtful response. I'll definitely try to "test out" variations in meditation to see what works best. I should also make sure I don't just get up and do other things immediately after meditating. I indeed "jump right out," which is probably what makes me feel disoriented and scattered.
The later stages of practice we have to allude to, as words are not really available.
So if I might suggest . . . ascribing meaning, discussing is a good thing . . . but not always possible. People are giving you excellent advice from their knowledge and experience. Listen, evaluate, decide and apply. All is well.
:thumbsup:
I'm sure you don't really believe that our meditation is neither right or wrong. If I sit there saying to myself "Ungh! A thought! I'm useless at this meditation thing! Worthless, incompetent piece of shit! I should just get it over with and kill myself!" that's wrong. The Buddha talked about Right Concentration and Right Effort for a reason: the practice has a specific objective (the end of suffering) and some tasks and activities are more effective for achieving that objective than others.
My teacher used to say 'You are not here to have a 'bad' or 'good' meditation - you are here to change yourself'. I feel @jeffrey has a point.
It's likely that you misunderstood your teacher's saying. Hopefully he meant that you work with whatever comes up, whether it seems bad or good, as a tool for self-transformation. There are right and wrong ways to work with it, though. Your quote at least suggests that he would regard as wrong any meditation activity which does not lead to transformation (at least eventually.)
I notice you use the words 'bad' and 'good' as well. I'm not sure what you mean by 'bad' and 'good' in the context of a meditation experience.
I'm pretty sure I understood what my teacher meant to say.
One way is through 'wanting' to concentrate and using strength of will to keep going back to the object. For me this resulted in a shattered awareness after the meditation because it tired the mind. Only through 'willful attention' was there concentration. Outside of meditation, this will is not there anymore, so concentration is quickly gone as well. Perhaps this is the same as you have experienced, as you describe sort of a transition between sitting and not sitting. Anyway, this method I learned was not effective for me.
Another way is through letting go of the idea of 'concentration' and letting the mind settle by itself on the chosen object. This way I found is more natural and the build up serenity of mindfulness is very easy to take into other activities, also when they are complicated. That's because you don't have to force it, the mind still stays in the natural attention you build up. This also lead me to a having a lot of what the suttas name "clear comprehension", while the 'forced' or 'steered' awareness does not. Clear comprehension for me is basically knowing what you are doing and why, outside of meditation also.
This 'steering' is probably also the reason the nice feelings disappear. As soon as you start steering awareness to them, the mind gets sort of agitated. This is mainly noticeable for me with mental feelings of bliss, because they are very subtle and easily disturbed.
I find it better not to use the word concentration in meditation, because the usual way we use the word has not much to do with meditation.
I don't practice Thannissaro's way of meditation. Still hope the above helps in any way.
Sure, as concepts good and bad are useful, but to understand the concepts is not the end. And it all just depends on what point of view we have towards those things. Do we want to be good and not bad? Do we want to avoid the evil? If that's what we want, in my experience it's not letting go. If I want to be kind, it's not kind at all. Non-attachment is not like this, it's not skillful and not unskillful. It's where good and bad are the same. To not want to change anything is not craving.
What if a student cannot master a positive rapturous state? And they kill themselves because they couldn't do what others can? Did they see? What if you are on your deathbed in so much pain that the bag of tricks doesn't help? Have you ever entered rapturous meditation while having a running fever and chills? I take faith in my mind as a death practice that I can do in my final minutes. What else can I do? My teacher takes this as relaxing into heart connections which is something she perceives as real and outside of limitations of life and death. Love is love.
I think what you and your teacher are getting at is that, to a large extent, we cannot control our inner experience and attempting to do so will often cause us suffering. This is true. Meditation brings us face to face with how little control we really have. However, although we cannot prevent ourselves from having unpleasant experiences (pain, anxiety, grief, shame, sadness, etc.), we can respond appropriately to whatever does come up. We can learn not to shoot ourselves with the second arrow. Our usual way of operating tends to be one of further agitation and proliferation (papanca). Meditation creates a more conducive environment in which to practice noticing that second arrow, and also practice relinquishing it. It's only a practice ground.
Whatever comes up, there are responses that will either (1) lead to more suffering or (2) lead to less suffering. In the Anapanasati Sutta, you'll notice the Buddha doesn't tell his monks to manufacture any mind-state. He describes experiences that will happen and tells you what to do when they come up (how to respond to them). He doesn't tell them to alter anything. He simply says "know [rather, acknowledge] this [in/out/long/short] breath... this [pleasant/neutral/unpleasant] feeling... etc."
It's basically like flying a kite or going windsurfing. You can't control the wind. However, when a good breeze does come along, you snatch that opportunity. Rapture and bliss aren't meant to be states we "cultivate" in the sense that they're so special we experience them all the time. They're simply a good breeze that we can opportunistically hitch a ride on to reach a certain shore from which we can have a good view of the landscape of our mind and heart.
In synthesis I think a warm genorisity to all states most fruitful. No guaramtees in life. Only unconditional heart and mind. Openness to changes.
We are blessed to have a devotion if possible. Put nothing on a pedistal. And that is my truth as I see it.
Meditation is a set of skills much like swimming. It aims to get us to a further shore...
Similarly, my teacher didn't find the idea of judging a meditation 'good' or a meditation 'bad' as helpful.
Was the meditation useful (ie conducive to Enlightenment) or not.
That's what counts.
I agree that there is no room for evaluation at the point of release, no evaluation prescribed in the Bahiya sutta instructions for instance. But how many of us are at the point of release? I've been there, but so much karma gets in the way of that. What we're talking about in this thread is undoing that obstructive karma and replacing it with something more conducive to awakening. There is plenty of room for critical evaluation from this perspective. I chose that example because it shows the logical absurdity of "no right or wrong." You think that the meditator's practice is wrong because he thinks he's wrong. And where does a thought evaluating a thought lie in this ontology of the ground of being? We all come to meditation with hopes and fears for its effects. Why not fashion them into something useful to the path?
How I interpret this is that you simply respond to what is naturally arising in experience in a way that doesn't create more agitation or entanglement -- in a way that, yes, calms what arises, but doesn't necessarily chase after calm as an end in itself. It's a dynamic, moment-to-moment, responsive process. The calm, bliss, rapture, etc. will occur naturally as a result of continually responding in this way. I think this isn't much different from what you're saying, but I find this distinction important because earlier in my practice, I would work myself into knots trying to contrive relaxation or bliss or rapture through a direct act of will, when indirect measure were more effective. It would also send my into a tizzy of evaluating my current mind-state, comparing it with other meditations or with a five moments ago, and asking myself: "Am I relaxed yet?" Ajahn Brahm uses a nice little simile of the cup to convey this idea.
I forget who, but I think there is at least one translator who uses "bodily/mental conditioner" (referring to the breath) in lieu of "fabrication" or "activity." To me, what the Buddha is pointing to here is that the mind responds to the body and the body responds to the mind. An unpleasant physical sensation will often lead the mind into reactivity, and likewise the body will tend to churn up agitation and discomfort in response to unpleasant thoughts. To me, the Buddha is saying that the breath can become your reminder that any mental reactivity or bodily reactivity can cease. You can refocus on the here-and-now experience of breathing. This is naturally calming and satisfying to the mind and body.
like this
"........"
Sanskrit=Pali
smirti=sati
virya=viriya
samadhi=samadhi
prajna=panna
sradda=saddha
These are known as the five faculties. Sati means mindfulness, the ability to keep something in mind. Not quite the opposite to openness, but at least orthogonal to the concept. Panna means wisdom, discernment, very different to sensitivity or balance (whatever that means in this context, it's a bit ambiguous). Saddha is faith, conviction; very different to sensitivity or balance. Viriya is persistence, energy, vigor, effort. Samadhi you already know: concentration. At least in Thanissaro's interpretation, they are qualities to be developed, not independent ontological realities. If you go looking for it, you never know what you might find.
The kind of karma I'm talking about is the detachment reaction I speculated about in this guy's case. Basically, stuff we don't see because we don't want to look at it. (The unconscious in modern psychological terms.)
I think the world would be a better place today if Trungpa had left fewer stones of this sort unturned.
Does this correspond to what you mean by "the usual way" of using the word? What do you think is - in general - the difference between "the usual way" of using the word concentration and the way it is used in the context of meditation?
@Glow Thanks for posting that, it seems really useful. Ajahn Brahm is using this simile to differentiate between right and wrong meditation, isn't he? (Not to say that wrong meditation is worthless)
maybe. but Sogyal Rinpoche says that you are looking for the nature of mind which is always there. So the penny drops along with the (aided by) upadesha pointing out instructions of the guru
The kind of karma I'm talking about is the detachment reaction I speculated about in this guy's case. Basically, stuff we don't see because we don't want to look at it. (The unconscious in modern psychological terms.)
I think the world would be a better place today if Trungpa had left fewer stones of this sort unturned.
Does this correspond to what you mean by "the usual way" of using the word? What do you think is - in general - the difference between "the usual way" of using the word concentration and the way it is used in the context of meditation?
Consider it like this: When people ask you to concentrate, do you think like "Yes! Thank you for letting me?".. probably not. It's more like they give you a job. But samadhi (the word often translated as concentration) is nice and peaceful, and easy because it arises without you having to do anything.
Or we say "concentrate on the breath". In the suttas samadhi is not used like that.
You could say that, although I tend not to think in terms of "right" vs. "wrong" because that doesn't convey very much about the "why" of it.