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The point is that we must practice in order to find out, for ourselves, how things really work, how things really are.
The way I see it is that Buddhism without rebirth is like physical beauty: it's only skin deep. If you deny the Buddha's teachings of rebirth you're not getting the whole picture.
I agree, but I also think that one has to come to this understanding in their own way. If you force feed beliefs to people, it doesn't work. They tend to dig in their heels defiantly, to enclose the belief into some sort of category and refuse to look at it in any other way.
The whole thing about karma and rebirth being "logically unsound" is rather absurd to me, because I feel the opposite is true... I feel that life without karma and rebirth is logically unsound. But I didn't always feel this way, and it took a bit of practice to see how things are connected in such a way that these are practical realities, rather than concepts or ideas.
And, you know, if I can come to that through practice, others can, too. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm totally wrong. The point is that we must practice in order to find out, for ourselves, how things really work, how things really are.
I just spent hours writing a post for this thread...
Then I deleted the whole thing.
I don't understand the entire concept of rebirth or how it fits into buddhism.. Its mere speculation like all the mad christian stuff.
Since rebirth isn't something I can control or change - I don't worry about it. I have enough to worry about with all the friggin' baggage I currently have.
My point is - if one simply works on the teachings of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path - that being a person's main concern - doesn't everything else fall in place? If you are practice "Right" everything - isn't a side effect that you are changing your karma or the conditions that could equate to an auspicious rebirth?
imho the question breaks down to this:
Can the eightfold path be seen as being self-sufficient in the way that a person, who seeks salvation here and now in his current incarnation, benefit from it thru acting according to it, wihtout having him believe in reincarnation?
Or in other words, is any believe of punishment and reward, or to use more neutral words, downs and ups in one`s progress thru different incarnations, neccessary for right conduct?
I tend to say no, since I see the eightfold path as a way to go, making gradual progress thru many reincarnations. So, the belief or non-belief in rebirth in Buddhism is not remotely so crucial than (not) believing in heavan or hell in belief systems that propagate "final reward for eternity" after the indivudal person passed away. So, even if he does not believe in kharma and rebirth, he will make progress also from that peoples point of view who believe in it, according to his realisation of the eightfold path.
Bleh, not worth arguing about, and I've said my piece. I was just curious, how do reincarnation and evolution interact with each other? Any theories? I've always thought of the concept of Darwinian evolution and common descent as being so similar to and intertwined with dependent arising it always surprised me Buddhists didn't come up with evolution first. Perhaps I'm just confused, and cramming square pegs into round holes, though.
While taking refuge vows is important, you really have to take and retake them constantly to make them stick. Otherwise they're gone in a day and it's like we never took them.
" lol Thank God"......?? :eek2: :wow:
As for whether you accept rebirth or not, you will only benefit from the teachings to the extent which you practice & implement them in your life. I would imagine that the Buddha Path does not require any sort of Blind Faith, though I think we must not blindly disbelieve either. And I imagine you can still sincerely go for refuge without being able to get your head around all of the teachings.
I imagine you can still sincerely go for refuge without being able to get your head around all of the teachings.
Fede, do you mean like an attachment to losing all your other attachments? I,ve heard this is the best sort of attachment.