Helping others and protecting onesself
yagr
Veteran
There is an acquaintance of mine that I see once a week. When I saw him this week, he informed me that he had just had his pickup stolen that day along with some personal items that the thief loaded into the back of the pick-up as they made their get away. I was thinking about him the following day and decided to call him to let him know and ask if there were any leads or anything. Really, my decision was about letting him know someone was thinking about him during this hardship.
Immediately I resisted the idea. I made the call anyway but went exploring afterwards to see what my resistance was all about. I discovered what it was. I care about this person in much the same way as I care about anyone. No more, no less. Which brings me to the bigger picture:
He is an acquaintance, not a friend. I don't want to be his friend. In fact, I don't believe there is enough common ground to form a friendship. In other words, I love the guy...but I don't really like him. The message that I sent him when I called to check on him was that 'someone is thinking about you and cares' which is absolutely true. Unfortunately, his 'friends' and 'buddies' didn't take the time to call and so I'm sending him the message that I like him more than they do - when in fact, I may care about him more than most of his friends do but ...like? Not so much.
This is a pattern throughout my life. I am extremely introverted. I love people but don't enjoy being around them (with the exception of my wife). Everyone else I feel like I need to detox after being around them - the energy drain is just remarkable. But any act of love or caring for anyone is seen as an invitation into my life. By way of an example going back a long ways - it was always a problem with dating. I would take a girl out, pay very close attention to her. Before the night was out I'd be hearing something like, "I've never met anyone like you before..." and then the attachment would form overnight. Same with the fellow at the gas station who I helped carry in the order the truck driver left outside just as it started to rain and he was swamped with customers... Or the old lady I helped carry her grocery's to the car... or the etc.
Any act of kindness is seen as an invitation to become friends. Any honest conversation is seen as a desire for intimacy. I want to do for these folks, but I don't want them on my doorstep. What does Buddhism have to say about this?
I'm probably going to have to do some explaining in this thread after a response or two because I feel as if I've explained myself very poorly but let me give a quick try now: This fellow that I called is a conservative Christian who, in spite of this, doesn't want to find the guy because he'll probably 'put a cap in his *ss'. He's pushing sixty but hasn't had a girlfriend over 25 years old in all the time I've known him. I'm not trying to judge the man but hanging out with him entails listening to conversations about his stuff, his relationship with his personal savior Jesus Christ, how hot his new 23 year old girlfriend is and what he's going to do to those people who have wronged him. It's just not a relationship that I desire.
Comments
@Yagr
Sorry
The "I" was just a misplaced finger touch on the keyboard which I then couldn't figure out how to remove. Stupid flu.
But....
Every relationship between two people is dependent on what both people allow it to be.
If the people that you help are getting a mistaken impression that your offer of help is also an offer of friendship....Why is that?
I find it helps to be clear and up front about what you value in a friendship and to be able to impart that message to folks who seem to be exploring that possibility. That leaves it up to them to either conform to those parameters or look for friendship elsewhere. It also just allows you to simply be your self instead of doing isometric emotional exercises to be something else.
Sometimes, we get what we "expect" and it's possible you are putting off a vibe that in fact attracts people to want to be dependent on you. Perhaps your fear of them getting attached to you causes them to want to do just that. Perhaps they are all teachers of yours, trying to get you to let go of assumptions. Are you using a few "bad" experiences in the past, to project on every person you interact with? If you are going into every situation expecting this to happen, then perhaps you are perceiving things that aren't there. If you just call someone to say "hey, I heard your truck was stolen, that sucks, I'm really sorry. If you need a ride or something, let me know" and they show up on your doorstep for a hug and a night on the town, then something is going amiss in other ways than simply your introversion.
I'm quite introverted as well, but I have no problem maintaining few friendship and multiple acquaintance-ships without boundaries being crossed. I very, very rarely ever have to actually have a conversation with someone about this. I think it just because I clearly understand what I want and will accept from the interaction, and it doesn't cross my mind to worry that the opposite will happen. It just seems to me that you might be projecting and expecting a certain outcome and you're in effect getting what you ask for
For a long time I avoided relationships of any type with people because I was afraid they would have expectations of me I couldn't, and did not want to, meet. But my fears, as usual, were unfounded.
While Buddhism encourages goodwill for all beings, nothing in Buddhism obliges you to have any contact whatsoever with such a person. The Buddha would have dismissed him as an irredeemable fool, avoided contact with him, and gotten on with his life.
Wow do I relate with the plight of the introvert, you spelled it out so well. Reaching out to a person often results in an unwanted intrusion. I keep myself well insulated because it takes so little socialization to deplete whateveritis in me.
What kind of experiences have you had in the past where you've had an unwanted new 'friend' dangling off of you that turned out badly?
@How, I wonder the same thing often:
Not EVERYONE gets that mistaken impression at all. Only a few, in my experience. People who feel lonely or desperate to be listened to, attended to in some way, these are the ones who 'see' an act of assistance or friendliness as more than my intention. What I do, I believe, is pay the same respect and friendliness to everyone as equally as I can. I don't 'favor' my attention to or away from any kind of person.
It's so easy to say 'it's THEM not me!' that I am reluctant to just say it but that's been my experience, in all honesty. There still could be something going on, coming from my end that I'm not aware of.
But there are also people who have a more than normal need for attention, who 'take' it rather than give it. Stumbling onto 'one of them' is an introvert's regret.
Just let go and be relaxed. Don't worry about if they are a friend or not. If they ask you for something you are not willing to give that is a problem. But just their viewing you as a friend is just how he/she is mentally labeling you. It shouldn't matter what mental labels another person has, rather it should matter if you are not available to talk to or spend time with that person. I've been on the other end of things like you describe. It is quite painful to be disappointed in them not wanting to be close. Some things in life are painful and it is not your fault you cannot provide friendship. HHDL said one of the bad things that you can do is give a fake smile etc.. So maybe you could take phone calls but say after 15 minutes "sorry I have to go, I am feeling tired".
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/20560/who-are-you-where-are-you-going> @fivebells said:
That is certainly not the buddha I have come to know and respect. irredeemable indeed! Reminder: compassion dwells in the heart of buddhism.
Foolish you may be, but irredeemable you are not.
@yagr
What do you think you should do?
Drive all blames into one?
I volunteer one evening a week to help an elderly blind person, who lives alone and has no family. We go through her mail, read articles that people send her, talk about current events. She is very political, on the opposite end of the spectrum from me, and opinionated - I can't imagine that she and I would be friends outside of this rareified atmosphere of needing / providing help. Yet I have learned more about myself, just by interacting with her, than I would ever have suspected. I, an introvert like you, am so grateful to know her.
If Buddha worked to redeem a serial killer, I don't think he'd simply walk away from someone who desires friendship or some level of relationship that someone else is unable to give, lol.
Honestly, as an introvert, I do find it can be somewhat reversible, to a degree. When I realize I have to do something that goes against my introvertedness, and have no choice, I can summon up the energy to deal with it and actually enjoy myself. I still need time to recharge after, and the more time I spend in the situation, the more time I need to recharge. But because I understand that, I do alright. I just make sure I get the time I need. My youngest is in preschool and somedays I have to spend 4 hours there with the whole class. 4 teachers and 20 crying, yelling, hugging, jabbering, snotting preschoolers. And while I am there, I love it. But when I get home, I need some serious quiet time. I usually take a bath with a book or go for a walk or whatever. The first time I had to do it, it was a nightmare and I thought I'd have an anxiety attack just thinking about having to do it. But now that I can prepare myself and know relief is coming it is much easier. The same goes for other situations, like dinner parties, holidays (the worst for me...obligated family holidays that I not only don't enjoy because there are tons of people I don't care for all that much but holidays I don't even like to celebrate...like Easter). I have limits, and if the event surpasses my expected limit, I run into problems. Like I can psyche myself up for a certain amount of time, but when it goes over that, I am about ready for a mental breakdown.
Sorry that was kind of off-topic. But I think at least in some cases, we don't have to feel quite as held hostage by being introverts as we think. I think sometimes we let it get to that point and then use it as an excuse. I did, and sometimes still do, anyhow.
I can so relate to that! I'm a nurse, and over the years I've developed an 'extroverted' persona that can BS and jabber, make tons of small talk and even relax and enjoy myself among the milling hordes . . . but when I get home, I breathe a sigh of relief, not just for the physical and emotional work of nursing but to be ALONE and allow my nerves to unrattle. I think there might be a hidden charger in this one spot on my couch because I always sit there after I get home from work . . .
People did talk him out of it in that case, but it shows that he was quite prepared to reject people and turn them away. There are also vinaya rules for which the consequence is expulsion. OK, maybe irredeemable is too strong, but he certainly wasn't going to take responsibility for their redemption, or associate with them in the mean time.
Your first obligation is to befriend yourself.
Maybe a protective mantra practice will seal and protect your compassion.
http://cundimantra.weebly.com/
Hey, devotion to truth, no matter what your spiritual path, deserves respect. That said, most people will probably just talk about their immediate experience of the world. Stop reading the words and listen to the tones and textures. Like... being reactive to "content" tends to make end points that we believe to be solid, and then ...
Anyway, those are just some immediate thoughts.
So if I read it right, your interests are very different from his and that means it'll be easier and healthier to not be friends
well, yes. Need good dharma friends always. Or travel alone. Quality over quantity for sure.
What else? Well, what's your ideal friendship like (with anyone)? Would having the exact same interests be ideal?
Really think about it. Reflect. Make lists if it helps. Theory being that the ideal qualities you wish to experience in a friendship are potential seeds in all relationships in your life. So although it will take patience and diligence and keen observing
really make a list of ideal traits and tap into those seeds, those moments. Straight up even just say "It is really great when ____, wouldn't it be wonderful to be on real communication levels always?"
Easy to try and play whack-a-mole with the indesirable qualities, but
sitting and doing breathing meditating -- hyper awareness of the one breath you are breathing and its shape
will help
in-not-stirring up or accepting with equanimity seeds you find unhelpful
and gradually planting and nurturing seeds you find skilfull and helpful
above all, be kind, because one day like Jamgön Kongtrul says, you'll look back on your whole life and it'll be like a dream. And all the times we were selfish or aggressive or impatient will have been oh-so-silly
In my ideal friendship I would love to have
passions that intersect a little, but independent lives, and be able to share the good stuff, and help each other with the heavy stuff
Remind each other to be loving and positive,
To follow and aspire to be the examples we feel affinity and devotion toward
Naturally there will be bumps in the road but make your needs known. And also just listen clearly. If you can say a nice phrase to knock someone out of their habitual looping, it'll be something they'll thank you for later
Bonus points if it touches their heart
p.s. lots of people come and post on these forums for help and guidance and material recommendations
share your wisdom ... listen deeply and if you have some beautiful talk to share then don't hold back. like you said, expressing caring interest is really nice, even better is interest that cares
Most people, even the path walkers, developed and realisers are trivial and superficial. It just a question of degree.
Many of us beginners are easily swayed by our supposed wisdom, insights etc. We need the inspiration of good company. Hence Sangha; cyber, actual or legendary.
As I said to four of my mythic friends only this morning:
'Thanks guys'
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/inspiration-worthy-words/something-easy-to-do-daily-yet-powerful.html
Any honest conversation is seen as a desire for intimacy.
I want to do for these folks, but I don't want them on my doorstep.
Friendship is a reciprocal relationship - if you've made the first move then you've initiated the relationship and are bound by the governing rules.
An honest conversation is intimate.
Your 'want' in this sense is akin to anyone's 'wants'... the cheese but not the calories, sun but no cancer, laughs with no end.
Perhaps you're feeding the same desire that leads people to try to be your friend but you're feeding your desire in your own way which is obscured by layers of subtle self-justification.
First of all, thank you all for your responses. I had no internet for a couple of days but am going through the responses now.
I think I should post on newbuddist.com and see what kind of feedback I get.
Frankly though, I've found then when something keeps happening to me, I am usually blinded by my own programming. Asking for direction was an example. I wasn't very good at it when I was younger, but have made headway recently.
This is certainly possible; though I don't see it. That said, if I did see it, I wouldn't be here asking, so I'm grateful that you brought it up as something for me to look at.
No. If this is something I'm bringing on, it is not for this reason.
In reviewing the conversation looking for clues, I realized that it went something like this:
Me: Hi Paul, this is Angel.
Paul: Hey Angel, what's up?
Me: I just called to see if you had gotten your truck back.
This was followed by a good thirty minutes of him talking. I did insert the occasional, "Oh?" or "Really?" but pretty much it was all him. I find myself wondering if it is the simple act of listening to him that snared me. He has never called me in the three years we've known each other (nor have I called him) but since that call I made to him (and this thread), he's called me three times. Once to let me know that he got his truck back and the other two times to 'see what I was up to'.
Perhaps I do bring this on myself, but the only thing that I can think that I've done is to make the call in the first place.
My daughter is an exceptional young woman and one of two people who I do not feel drained after spending time with her. She has a similar problem. We were talking about it one day when she was about sixteen years old and I decided to take her through an experiment.
We went to the park one sunny afternoon. We found a picnic table that wasn't being used and there was no one within ten meters or so of us. I pointed out this fact to her and asked her to not initiate contact with anyone else for the next thirty minutes and to see how people gravitated to her/us at the end of the thirty minutes. Then we proceeded to talk.
Thirty minutes later, though the number of people in the park hadn't changed noticeably, there were three children playing on our picnic table. Two families had relocated their blankets/picnics to within a couple of meters (the children were not theirs) and six dogs had come over to say 'hi'.
Granted, that is not a 'friend' situation, but it is part and parcel of the situation.
nods I am just as reluctant to do so, but I am also reluctant to avoid accepting what is.
maybe you have the wrong sort of beard and have neglected the ancient art of projection by ridiculous or inappropriate hat wearing?
If you phone up and ask, people will think you are interested. Phone and tell your problems and you will never hear from them again . . .
Maybe you should look at it as a positive way to make an impact. Some people just appear more open and willing to listen and while you shouldn't wear yourself thin, maybe it would pay for you to just be open to whatever situation as it develops and do your best to really listen to the person. Sometimes, like with the truck guy things just overload on a person and they take an opportunity that presents to unload. Maybe you could look at it as a gift rather than a curse to your introverted personality. Expand your awareness out in front of you and see what comes, instead of dreading certain interactions. That might take some practice, but I bet it'll get easier and maybe you will find you get something out of the interactions as well. Maybe they are presenting opportunities to you to connect and you are missing them.
If you are open to them, what is the worst that'll happen, compared to dreading them but still going through the motions? You might find it far less exhausting if you let go and go with the flow rather than resisting and thinking about how drained you will be.
Could you say more about 'expanding my awareness out in front of me'? I believe that I know what you mean, but before I try it - I'd like to be certain. The last line in what I quoted resonated with me especially.
On a similar note: Currently, the wife and I are looking for a place. Unfortunately, I can no longer work and she is just returning to work after three months recuperating from a workplace injury. Our liquid savings are beyond gone. We have put some larger ticket items up for sale but they are not quick sells and so we are pretty limited in what we can afford. Just like that - a free place came open...and I'm not certain I can afford it.
We went to look at the place yesterday. The place is rough, but that is not a concern; I can make it livable. Please don't think I am ungrateful - free is free, but the floor is falling through, a huge window is shattered and covered in plastic, the shower is gone and there's currently no plumbing, electricity or refrigerator. Again, I can manage to make it work and none of that really troubles me - give me a weekend and I'll have it unrecognizable.
What fills me with trepidation is the social aspect. By any definition, it's a commune. The main house houses the property owner, seven dogs, a pregnant cat and the occasional duck, chicken or pig. The backdoor of that particular house opens to a pen shared by two cows, two pigs, twenty-four chickens, and six ducks. The backdoor has a pet door and the cows are the only creatures that can't fit through. They also have eight horses. There are five other trailers, sheds and fifth wheels doing duty as living quarters for the rest of the people.
Everyone chips in and helps around the property. I was asked yesterday if I know how to cook (which I do) and I expect that if we end up here, I'll be the camp cook. In addition, I'll also be feeding the horses and doing some maintenance. Despite my physical disabilities, I can manage the cooking although the horses and maintenance will be a challenge. Well, I can manage the cooking if they let me do it rather than micromanage the process. I don't think I can cook in their kitchen as it is for instance; it needs to be thoroughly cleaned. I really have no idea how to respond to, "Oh don't worry about cleaning up, it's fine and we're all hungry."
Ultimately, and despite having our own space, I don't know how I will live with the other folks who celebrate their enmeshment and seek more. I know there is something for me to learn here - but I really want to make the most of it and not become bitter and resentful. Any further tips?
Heh, sounds like my current living situation, if I leave my front door open all the chickens and geese just march right in (my son, his friend and friends GF live in the house 20 ft away from mine). Anyway, I'd say unless you establish clear boundaries with your new mates from the git go, you'll be set up for a very miserable time. Don't expect people to get the hint you like a majority of your time to be private (no stop overs for chatting, borrowing, etc) because they won't. And then, once you are clear in your own mind what will work for you, you'll have to maintain the boundary by discouraging folks who don't respect it (innocently or not). Will this be a temporary situation, one you can 'get through' on your way elsewhere? I'm just putting myself in your shoes, and just thinking about it brings up all kinds of discomfort.
Also, what are you willing to let go of? A clean kitchen (your standards of cleanliness) means something different to everyone.
In your shoes I think being worst-case-scenario honest with yourself is important, as well as examining yourself for hidden expectations. On the bright side, being open to new and different experiences is good to keep one aware of the ole attachment issues. Just think, a majority of the world lives this way anyway, the human condition in this little commune is not going to be unique. We've somehow managed all these tens of thousands of years.
@yagr, the first thing you might do is negotiate a bit on your responsibilities. Cooking, fixing plumbing and electircity, and feeding large animals sounds like a huge task list! Maybe no livestock care (it sounds a bit tricky for you AND the animals) but a little more maintenance? If you will be sprucing up your and your wife's living quarters, that's a permanent "gain" for the commune after all, and you will have a much better chance for success in this situation if you don't take on TOO much. --On the plus side: wow. I've often wished a commune situation like yours might come up for me. Granted I too would probably want cleanliness, neatness and some privacy. But it sounds like you are sure of your skills in modifying the environment, so could plan for a small space where you could shut a door or draw a curtain? Hmm. I understand your trepidation but - could this be a great opportunity as well?
Jesus! God didn't come knocking at every door, did he? I don't know what Buddhism have to say about this but I say- you can't be nice to everybody and be nice to yourself!
@yagr, I'm not sure how well I can explain it. Most of us are open with the people we love and trust. I don't mean open as far as talking to them openly, but we have an attitude of being open to accepting them and their words and behaviors. Kind of like we see them with an open-arms attitude. With people we don't know well, or at all, we tend to pull that back. We are lacking trust and to some degree, often exhibiting fear. When you can expand that awareness of open-arms or open-heart to other people, it is quite beneficial.
Our sangha group leader told me once that he watched the HHDL greet people in a line. He would take their hands and talk to them and hear their story, and when he was with that person, even for just a few seconds, he was 100% present with them. He would cry tears with them at their personal stories, he would be happy with them, and so on. He has developed so well that he can be immediately with each person fully invested in them. I'm not saying we have the ability to do that at this point (I know I don't, lol) but I think we can work towards it.
I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone who responded, especially as I explain my shortcomings I've certainly opened myself up to some judgment. It never came though, and I'm grateful for that. There's a saying I try to keep in mind, "One can't save their face and their ass at the same time." and so I ask to learn, bt I don't always get such nonjudgmental and helpful responses. Thanks again.
I want to do for these folks, but I don't want them on my doorstep. What does Buddhism have to say about this?
after years and years of meditation what i do is the following:
if someone need a help i do what i have to do and what i can do at the moment
and
try to remind myself 'that is anatta so let go of it'
if at later i remember what i have done that means 'i didn't let go of it'
so i remind the mind what came to mind now is anatta and let go of it
this reminding job is hard at the beginning
it takes a little time after a while of practice
this little time span is getting shorter and shorter when we increase our practice of reminding the 'all is anatta'
or
if the above is hard then one can do the following:
this 'person' had done something good for me before, even though i do not remember him/her/it now and this is my turn to return it
do what you have to do or what you can do
and 'forget it then and there'
if that incident comes into mind at a later stage that means one didn't forget it
what ever comes into mind has no inherent quality
it is in the mind only
so remind the mind 'this is in the mind only and just forget it'
this reminding the mind is a hard job at the beginning and takes time
but once one try to practice it continuously it will become habitual
that is what we need as Buddhists
No cause so No effect
In many ways your opening is an opportunity for self reflection. In other words we are thankful for the opportunity to learn what we are doing. It is this diversity of reflection that can be helpful if we have the capacity, which I feel comes with practice, of listening rather than deciding what we have heard. How many of us hear but do not listen to our own best interests or assume being kind to those who will waste or guzzle and come back with insatiable thirst is the only way . . .
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/quotes.html
Hard isn't a reason to avoid it but your second suggestion resonated with me immediately. I can practice this with the tools I already have while developing others.