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lobster
Veteran
From another thread:
Its good intention which is devoid of wisdom.
_'Doing good to the bad is the equivalent of doing bad to the good' _ is a dervish saying. How important is discernment/wisdom/judgement? For example should we support culture dependent dharma, well meaning fools, hypocrites or those lacking wisdom, compassion or some other trait we deem beneficial? How important is personal integrity and inherent wisdom?
Personally I find making mindful choices enables the arising of wisdom.
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One's intention may be pure, compassionate and full of empathy and still may be unwise, unproductive and even harmful.
Right -- the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Someone said this on another thread which I think is relevant:
"Ignorance of ignorance begets ignorance"
It may be called something different like idiot compassion, but it's still ignorance. Just a different disguise.
There is a measure of practice but the larger problem is that too many people cannot be compassionate without having some expectations or desires they are trying to fill. Other motives, even in the background, can prohibit compassion to grow properly and be utilized in a proper way in my opinion.
Compassion, by definition, is about feeling, and the desire to relieve, the suffering of other beings. How can selfish motives arise with compassion?
Perhaps you are talking about the selfish motivation to become a more compassionate person in the name of achieving wisdom, or something.
Still, where compassion is present, even idiot compassion, the motivation is not self centered.
In my opinion.
I am talking about the inability to commit to an action that is only a product of compassion without other factors getting in the way.
Example: I know that the person needs help and I feel sorry for they are suffering but I dont have the time to deal with him so I'll just do this for them so I can get back to whstever it is I need to do today.
That still contains Compassion. It doesn't have to be long, laborious, focused or time - constrained. It could be lengthy or instant.
If you 'just do this for him ' it's still doing something...
Seems right to me.
I think this is part of the equation. Well meaning dharma seniors without awareness are in effect sometimes perpetuating a more refined ignorance. Nonetheless good/wise/inspiring company leads us not into temptation . . . or rather ignorance but into awareness and wisdom . . .
In other words there are degrees of ignorance and degrees of wisdom. In relative terms we make ignorant or wise path choices based on our experiences and knowledge. We may find that discussing our own ignorance leads to more wisdom than discussing others qualities . . .
The rushing of the individual to commit to compassion and get back to his self fulfilling life pushes him to quickly and without adequate consideration provide a temporary bandage that only disables the other individual over the long term.
Again, you separate the two. You're very dualistic.
Compassion does not cease and come to an abrupt halt.
Compassion is not something a person does. Compassion is something a person IS.
A truly compassionate person does not return to ' a self - fulfilling life'.
Only Idiot Compassion behaves that way.
Above all, compassion doesn't overthink compassion.
I refuse to believe that I have pure compassion. The moment I allow such delusion I will be susceptible to my selfish desires sneaking in and taking control. The body has selfish desire as it is a function of the body to sustain it's life through such means. I must be vigilant.
Is this a Buddhist idea you reiterate or your understanding?
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You're right, you don't have it.
It needs cultivation and practice to cultivate it and implement it.
Right now you probably don't believe you CAN do that.
Sign of a full cup...
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Foolish man.That is Idiot Compassion of course! Have you not been paying attention?
The body is ephemeral and temporary. It doesn't matter. It is ever-changing, deteriorating and ageing. It is merely a vehicle you need to care for.
What you need to focus on is opening your MIND to new concepts.
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Everything I have reiterated is a sound Buddhist established teaching. Not an idea, invention or fragment of my understanding.
What do you think we have been discussing here?
Why do you think this is a Buddhist forum?
What we share with you is profound yet simple and common Buddhist practice.
Have you not got that yet? I've not
I meant no offense in my question. People do not always follow the accepted way of life, or religion, to the letter.
Foolish man.That is Idiot Compassion of course! Have you not been paying attention?
How is it idiot compassion if I choose to not be ignorant?
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I think you'll find on a Buddhist forum where many people have Buddhist-associated names and where many if not most topics are closely connected or subject to Buddhist content and people re consistently referring to Buddhist texts, scriptures and teachings - it's a pretty safe bet people are doing their best to do just that.
What, here gave you impression otherwise....?
'making mindful choices'... or
'mindfully making your way through juxtapositions'?
Part of the same process. A bit like the fractal zooming in another thread. Initially we have to make judgement calls. Good decision, more skilful decision. As the bigger picture emerges, mindful choices don't have so much of a need to be aligned with. In a sense the ignorant choice phases out of existence . . .
Hope that makes sense
This statement is foolish.
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In order to recognise the difference between wise and idiotic compassion you have to be shown it, don't you...?
It seems like there might be some confusing or crossing the terms "compassion" and "generosity."
If you help someone, say, you give a homeless person a coat, you are helping them and being materially generous. Perhaps at that moment you are acting from an act of compassion, but if you give him your crappy, scrappy, stained coat, are you really operating out of compassion? Or are you fooling yourself into thinking you are compassionate? The person now has a coat (even if it's stained or torn or whatever) so in a sense they are better off, for sure. So yes, you were generous, but were you compassionate when you walk away with a nice coat and leave someone else with your garbage?
Compassion, to me, goes beyond that. It is when you have given up (at least in part, since it's always a work in progress for most of us) the parts of your personality that you hold onto. Think about a kitchen drawer. You have things in there, probably, that you never use. But you look at them and you think "I might need it one day. I used it once 20 years ago, and it served me well, so I'll keep it." We do the same thing with our personality. One time, when I was a child, fear served me well (in my opinion) and for 30 years I've held onto fear as a result. Holding onto that fear (or jealousy, or anger, whatever we feel served us and made us resourceful at protecting ourselves or or helped us get what we wanted) is a form of aggression. When we learn how to recognize and let those things go, we open to true compassion.
Generosity can be giving of just things, or of time. But when you only give in that way, the people keep coming back for more of what you offered them, because you have it to offer. True compassion comes in more when you are able and willing to be able to teach them to not be afraid of their own lives, to help them to become compassionate by recognizing their own fears and aggressions and learning to let go of them. Compassion is more than simply generosity. In my opinion, of course.
Great post @karasti...
It is an inevitable result of differing perceptions that one would see something outside the norm. I found your claim of my compassion being idiot compassion to be contradictory to what I thought I had learned thus far. I then could only question where things went wrong.
I dont understand how a living being can consist of only compassion. The unverse is neither black nor white. Even the blackest black is still gray along with the whitest white. Life itself only exists as the product of opposing opposites. To be an absolute is to be unchanging and not alive for life is a product of change. It is to become an idea and unreal. It is to be nonexistent and inhuman. Such a thing cannot exist within the human body or mind nor could it live alongside it for it is frozen in time and exists as a singular absolute.
Where have we said a living being can only consist of compassion? I think you're compartmentalising again.
We strive to fully know, absorb and Realise the 4 Noble Truths and walk the Eightfold Path.
We practise to cultivate Dana, Sila and Bhavana¥ and we strive to adhere to the 5 the Precepts.
There's an awful lot more there than just being Compassionate.
It's jolly hard work but the work is its own reward...
I think you are just not getting this.... are you...?
¥ = https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=qvVwU--gHc7y7Aam0YCQBw&url=http://www.buddhapadipa.org/dhamma-corner/dana-sila-bhavana/&cd=9&ved=0CDoQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNHkbKzn1JrN_47ANMEIlqRJekW99w&sig2=6KB2WzhSKAFv2FWfuutNJA
How is this not absolute?
How is it absolute? Again, you assume that simply because a person practises wise compassion, they cannot do or be anything else.
I am a mother, through and through.
Does this mean I cannot be an aunt as well?
"If you believe in love, do you manifest it or just talk a lot? If you believe in compassion, in non-harming, in kindness, in wisdom, in generosity, in calmness, in solitude, in non-doing, in being even-handed and clear, do you manifest these qualities in your daily life?"Jon Kabot- Zinn
...Am I talking too much....?
:0)
That passage has helped me to remember to "walk the walk"....act my way to "right thinking"...
No you're doing fine.
I am not speaking of being a mother and an aunt.
I am speaking of being a good mother or a bad one. There is niether only a measure of both. Where do we drawmthe line between idiot compassion and true compassion. Idiot mother and true mother?
I say that a true mother must be vigilant and be attentive to her faults or she will fail through ignorance of those faults.
I say a true compassionate person must be vigilant and attentive to their faults or they will fall to their ignorance.
For this reason I could never call myself truly compassionate for in the end I am in effect denying my faults.
I can only conclude the same for others.
No not at all.lol. This conversation is probably not for me.
@Grayman, Practice makes perfect
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He is not a fool who makes mistakes.
He is a fool who does not learn from them.
If you put your hand in a flame and it burns, you don't do it again, do you?
Discernment, evaluation and meditation help you decide whether your actions err more towards idiot than wise.
What you say is correct, but it's only wise if your actions follow suit...
@MeisterBob, @robot, thanks :0)
...In a sense the ignorant choice phases out of existence . . .
Indeed - or in another way that the ignorance was not attributable to the choice itself. Hence I think mindfulness is a quality attributed to the entity taking part rather than to the choice(s).
Options? narrows it down a bit?!! maybe...
@Grayman, do you practice or do you just like to intellectualize everything? It almost seems like you are seeking a full understanding before you consider beginning any sort of practice, and Buddhism doesn't really work that way. They work together and one increases their understanding via practice. Much of it has to be experienced, not explained.
Is this what you are getting at:
We can be mindful. Choices do not have mind.
If so I accept that.
The degree of awareness or mindfulness dictates action. I personally find it increasingly easy to make better choices and to be aware of my inherent flaws and ignorance.