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Are 32 parts of body, the Khandas, body postures, the 9 stages of corpses and 6 sense bases extra?

bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
edited July 2014 in Philosophy

Buddha Gotama attained Nirvana when he was sitting down under the Bodhi tree and using Anapanasati.

He said anapanasati completes the 4 foundations of mindfulness.

I know anapanasati has body which is the breath, feeling, mind, and mind objects and so does satipatthana, and since the Buddha sat under the bodhi tree for many days by practicing the 16 steps of anapanasati and attained nirvana and saw dependent origination for himself all the while by sitting down, it that means he didn't need to practice walking meditation and didn't contemplate the 9 stages of corpses and the stages of impurities in the 32 parts of the body and didn't note movement and posture in the body postures and clear understanding of going forward and looking back...etc

In satipatthana because its not in anapanasati and he was sitting down, also he must not have used the 6 internal and external sense bases because you can't in anapanasati and again because he was sitting, and he didn't use the Khandhas in the way you would in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and in the satipatthana sutta, because he was motionless and sitting down,

I can maybe see, just maybe see on how the Khandas could be in anapanasati because the breath is a body, which is form, and you also got your different kinds of feelings, and the perception of of knowing you are experiencing different feelings and the short, long breath and the whole breath, and on how breath calms the bodily formation, and you got your feeling and perception in experiencing rapture and bliss and the mental formations are i think in there as well,
including the last Khanda consciousness which is consciousness associated with jhanas.

Also the hindrances are in the satipatthana as well when you practice anapanasati when you are trying to go into jhana and the hindrances are also in liberating the mind when you liberate the mind of the hindrances, and liberate the mind from jhana factors, which is in the 12 step in the 3rd tetrad.

I didn't go into great detail on how i think possibly the Khandas could automatically be in each step when you practice the 16 steps of anapanasati but its just my guess, but they are not in Anapanasati.

Anyway i think you get the idea. Am i forgetting something or misunderstanding something that you could me understand better?

I'm sticking strictly with just Anapanasati the way the Buddha did under the bodhi, and not practice the satipatthana sutta, but if i fail or give up in Anapanasati then I will switch over to Mahasi Sayadaw Satipatthana Method that uses moment to moment awareness of mind and matter which i think is brilliant, and is without a doubt another way which when practiced as a monk all day for life will one day lead to Arahata-Magga as well.

Moderator note Post broken up into paragraphs to facilitate reading and comprehension.

Comments

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited July 2014

    If you think about it how else could Buddha have attained Nirvana, why else would Buddha have said anapanasati completes the 4 foundation of mindfulness (satipatthana) since thats the way he did it under the Bodhi tree.

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited July 2014
    1. Contemplation of the body, First Tetrad

    Breathing long
    Breathing short
    Experiencing the whole body
    Tranquillising the bodily activities

    1. Contemplation of feelings, Second Tetrad

    Experiencing rapture
    Experiencing bliss
    Experiencing mental activities
    Tranquillising mental activities

    1. Contemplation of the mind, Third Tetrad

    Experiencing the mind
    Gladdening the mind
    Centering the mind in samadhi
    Releasing the mind

    1. Contemplation of Dhammas, Fourth Tetrad

    Contemplating impermanence
    Contemplating fading of lust
    Contemplating cessation
    Contemplating relinquishment

    Only the 4th tetrad leads to ending of effluence. The 2 method converges.

    Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

    And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. These are the four developments of concentration.

    http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/04/an04-041.html

    To summarize how to observe objects in vipassana practice, we should: 1) observe realities, not concepts or names; 2) be aware of knowing each object; and 3) observe each object from beginning to end as it arises and disappears in the present moment.

    http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm#w

    With metta

    1. Contemplation of the body, First Tetrad

    Breathing long
    Breathing short
    Experiencing the whole body
    Tranquillising the bodily activities

    1. Contemplation of feelings, Second Tetrad

    Experiencing rapture
    Experiencing bliss
    Experiencing mental activities
    Tranquillising mental activities

    1. Contemplation of the mind, Third Tetrad

    Experiencing the mind
    Gladdening the mind
    Centering the mind in samadhi
    Releasing the mind

    1. Contemplation of Dhammas, Fourth Tetrad

    Contemplating impermanence
    Contemplating fading of lust
    Contemplating cessation
    Contemplating relinquishment

    The first 3 tetrad leads to development of sati sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension). The 4th leads to ending of effluence.

    And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

    And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. These are the four developments of concentration.

    http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/04/an04-041.html

    With metta

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    I have memorized the anapanasati sutta and read the commentaries about it more than once.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    And thank you for the Samādhibhāvanā Sutta @pegembra.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    Buddha Gotama attained Nirvana when he was sitting down under the Bodhi tree and using Anapanasati. He said anapanasati completes the 4 foundations of mindfulness i know anapanasati has body which is the breath, feeling, mind, and mind objects and so does satipatthana, and since the Buddha sat under the bodhi tree for many days by practicing the 16 steps of anapanasati and attained nirvana and saw dependent origination for himself all the while by sitting down, so that means he didn't need to practice walking meditation

    How long did it take for the Buddha to attain Nibbana?

    /Victor

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @Victorious I've read somewhere it took him 49 days.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited July 2014

    Then it seems obvious that he did do other kinds of meditation. It is unlikely that he spent 49 days just sitting down.

    At least he did eat and go to the toilet and sleep. So he must have done awareness meditation walkning, eating and lying down. This is normal procedure.

    Then of course the other types of meditation are needed to hone the necessary skills to reach nibbana. And as pegembara noted meditation on the body is inherent in that sutta. And cemetary meditation is used for "fading of lust".

    So I think there are a lot of things that are meant and just breifly mentioned in that sutta but not explicitly mentioned. The path cannot be determined by reading just one sutta.

    There is a guy called Resaren on a Swedish site trying to do the same thing as you. But he also uses other suttas not only this one.

    I think it is great but too tiresome for me to try.

    Good luck though.

    /Victor

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Then it seems obvious that he did do other kinds of meditation. It is unlikely that he spent 49 days just sitting down.

    At least he did eat and go to the toilet and sleep. So he must have done awareness meditation walkning, eating and lying down. This is normal procedure.

    Then of course the other types of meditation are needed to hone the necessary skills to reach nibbana. And as pegembara noted meditation on the body is inherent in that sutta. And cemetary meditation is used for "fading of lust".

    So I think there are a lot of things that are meant and just breifly mentioned in that sutta but not explicitly mentioned. The path cannot be determined by reading just one sutta.

    There is a guy called Resaren on a Swedish site trying to do the same thing as you. But he also uses other suttas not only this one.

    I think it is great but too tiresome for me to try.

    Good luck though.

    /Victor

    I believe you're wrong, anapanasati is a complete form of meditation, and Buddha was no ordinary human being to be able to sit under the bodhi tree for that long, i believed he did sit there for days without moving and i believe he only used anapanasati and nothing else.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited July 2014

    Just because the Buddha did not do any other kind of meditation during those 49 days does not mean he hadnt already developed the other qualities he needed earlier.

    Qualitities he needed during those days.

    Mahasi is the main mean man! But I can recommend Ajahn Brahms. Mindfullness, Bliss and Beyond. To get a inclination to the practical path to Nibbana and what is required and why.

    /Victor

    EDIT: I on the contrary believe the Buddha followed a path and portrayed a path that any human can follow and not only superhumans.

    If you really believe that the Buddha used abilities that are not available to common people to reach nibbana then in that case it seem the path you are trying is impossible unless you have those abilities too.

    EDIT2:
    Here is a pdf.

    http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajahn_Brahm-Mindfulness_Bliss_and_Beyond-Chapters1-5.pdf

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    What i am saying is that if say the buddha practiced anapanasati, lets say for 4 hours a day than it could have taken maybe 6 months or maybe a year, no way to know exactly when but since he gave it everything he had out of desperation to find a cause for suffering and he told himself he will not leave this spot until he finds the cause of suffering. He put his life on the line to discover the truth. And since he didn't meditate for just four hours a day when he got to the bodhi tree but many many days then so he was able to realize nirvana more quickly.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    He put his life on the line to discover the truth.

    Yes that is a good technique. There are tales of the same kind of exertion in other religions.

    Like when the god Odin hung himself from a tree pierced with a spear to reach for the esoteric knowledge.

    I do recommend the Ajahn Brahms book. It is a good read. For an example it describes how to recognize an Arahant. Which in turn describes a lot about the path to nibbana.

    bookworm
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @Victorious Oh thats very interesting about the Norse god i didn't know that, when i read the buddha's story and how much he struggled and suffered to find the cause of suffering, he resolve to find the truth was incredible and thank you for the book recommendation, i'll check it out.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @bookworm said:

    ...since the Buddha sat under the bodhi tree for many days by practicing the 16 steps of anapanasati and attained nirvana and saw dependent origination for himself all the while by sitting down, so that means he didn't need to practice walking meditation and didn't contemplate the 9 stages of corpses and the stages of impurities in the 32 parts of the body and didn't note movement and posture in the body postures and clear understanding of going forward and looking back...etc in satipatthana because its not in anapanasati and he was sitting down, also he must not have used the 6 internal and external sense bases because you can't in anapanasati and again because he was sitting, and he didn't use the Khandhas in the way you would in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and in the satipatthana sutta, because he was motionless and sitting down,

    I see what you're saying, but unfortunately there isn't a consensus on the relationship between anapanasati and satipatthana. However it's worth observing that:

    1. There are many commentaries on the 16 step version of anapanasati but they are contradictory - some emphasise jhana and concentration, while others emphasise vipassana.
    2. It's likely that the 16 step version of anapanasati was a later addition and not something actually practised by the Buddha - in any case it seems to be a derivative of the 4 frames of satipatthana.
    3. Anapanasati is a seated practice, whereas satipatthana is applied both on and off the cushion.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @pegembara said:
    The first 3 tetrads leads to development of sati sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension). The 4th leads to ending of effluence.

    Several of the commentaries I've read say the main purpose of the first 3 tetrads is to develop jhana and concentration, with only the 4th tetrad being fully concerned with insight.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @bookworm said:
    I believe you're wrong, anapanasati is a complete form of meditation, and Buddha was no ordinary human being to be able to sit under the bodhi tree for that long, i believed he did sit there for days without moving and i believe he only used anapanasati and nothing else.

    >

    The Buddha was a completely ordinary human being, even according to himself. He refused to attribute any supernatural, special or wondrous quality to himself. he merely stated he was 'awake'.
    He lived, breathed, moved, walked, urinated, defecated, ate, slept and died just like anyone else.

    What he DID - was extraordinary.

    Buddhadragonlobster
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    off topic federica.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Not in the slightest. You are stating that he sat for 49 days without movement. I would say, that as an ordinary human being, he would not, and others have said the same.

    Doubtless I have made off-topic posts before. This is not off-topic.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited July 2014

    The Mahayana has a very different take on the issue of The Buddha being an ordinary human being.
    In brief, the Mahayana says that he was not..that he was an emanation.

    Just sayin'.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Well the Mahayana's wrong.

    I'm kidding..........

    Victoriousbookworm
  • CittaCitta Veteran

    I think the important thing is to be consistent to your own chosen path, and tolerant towards the rest.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Agreed...... ;) .

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Several of the commentaries I've read say the main purpose of the first 3 tetrads is to develop jhana and concentration, with only the 4th tetrad being fully concerned with insight.

    Actually the first 3 tetrads are insight and concentration, but you're right about the last tetrad being pure insight.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited July 2014

    ...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @bookworm, this is too long and could contravene copyright guidelines, in some cases. Please just post an excerpt and a link to follow, for people to continue reading.
    Thanks.

    (You have around 4 hours to edit your post. or if you now post the link in a new post, I can do it for you....) :) .

  • @SpinyNorman said:
    Several of the commentaries I've read say the main purpose of the first 3 tetrads is to develop jhana and concentration, with only the 4th tetrad being fully concerned with insight.

    I have to agree. The initial step is to develop the jhanas when the mind is sufficiently stilled (when the 5 hindrances are held abay). It is only then that one can begin to see the rise and fall of phenomenon/objects of meditation. This is sati sampajanna.

    And how, bhikkhus, is a Bhikkhu sampajāna? Here, bhikkhus, to a bhikkhu the vedanās arise being known, they persist being known, they pass away being known. The vitakkās arise being known, they persist being known, they pass away being known. The saññās arise being known, they persist being known, they pass away being known. In this way, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is sampajāna.

    http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samyutta/maha/sn47-035.html

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @bookworm said:
    Actually the first 3 tetrads are insight and concentration, but you're right about the last tetrad being pure insight.

    Have you studied the source material, ie the Anapanasati and Satipatthana Suttas?

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @SpinyNorman All i need is the 16 steps of anapanasati and my refuge vows, i'll figure out the rest through self discovery. My breath is enough.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    Oh and of course i'll need to keep the Kalama sutta in mind as well.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    I suspect you will need more.

    But Kudos. Please share in what you find out.

    Kindly
    Victor

    bookworm
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @Victorious Sorry my mistake it didn't take buddha 49 days to attain nirvana by mindfulness of breathing, but it actually only took him 1 night.

    Victorious
  • CittaCitta Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    Victorious Sorry my mistake it didn't take buddha 49 days to attain nirvana by mindfulness of breathing, but it actually only took him 1 night.

    The Mahayana view is that it took him thousands of lifetimes of effort.

    A Samyaksambuddha does not arise in one night or one life.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited July 2014

    According to Theravada it took Gotama Buddha 99 kalpas. And a concent from an earlier Buddha. (Kassapa I think)

    But the final effort was in one night.

    An Arahant (Sravakabuddha) can be made in much less than that and that is what bookworm is aiming at I think?

    /Victor

    bookworm
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    Yes that's correct @Victorious, that's what I was aiming to say.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @bookworm said:
    SpinyNorman All i need is the 16 steps of anapanasati and my refuge vows, i'll figure out the rest through self discovery. My breath is enough.

    I admire your confidence, but practice isn't just about seated meditation. What framework are you using to maintain mindfulness _off _the cushion, if not the 4 frames of satipatthana?

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @SpinyNormana Well i just do seated anapanasati but i haven't yet started to practice off the cushion, but when i decide to, i would just try to to be mindful of breathing, just being aware of just the in breath and out breath continuously and just be aware aware that i'm breathing, while doing whatever it is that i'm doing.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    considerate warning. Thank you. :) .

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    SpinyNormana Well i just do seated anapanasati but i haven't yet started to practice off the cushion, but when i decide to, i would just try to to be mindful of breathing, just being aware of just the in breath and out breath continuously and just be aware aware that i'm breathing, while doing whatever it is that i'm doing.

    Fair enough. I'd be interested to hear how you're approaching the 16 steps in practice - are you working through all of them?
    And have you read Buddhadasa's commentary "Mindfulness with breathing"?

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @SpinyNorman I've read Buddhadasa's mindfulness of breathing twice, but i didn't find it helpful. And no i'm not yet able to to work through all of the 16 steps as of yet, i found my meditation sessions goes much smoother when don't look for results or what step i'm at. I very recently changed my approach to mindfulness of breathing and i feel as though i somewhat got the 1 tetrad figured out.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    What is Shakyamuni buddha doing now I wonder? He is a buddha so he must be doing something right? ... \ lol / ...

    Please don't speculate on my behalf - my comment was purely a rhetorical device! - I am sure he's the local estate agent; always smiling he is!

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    SpinyNorman I've read Buddhadasa's mindfulness of breathing twice, but i didn't find it helpful. And no i'm not yet able to to work through all of the 16 steps as of yet, i found my meditation sessions goes much smoother when don't look for results or what step i'm at. I very recently changed my approach to mindfulness of breathing and i feel as though i somewhat got the 1 tetrad figured out.

    In practice most people simplify or condense the practice, since 16 steps isn't really manageable in a single sitting - there's a chapter on this in "Breath by breath". Anyway, please don't dismiss satipatthana since there is an intimate relationship with the 4 tetrads. You might find it helpful to check out the Dhamma Wheel forum as this topic is regularly discussed over there.

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