Are 32 parts of body, the Khandas, body postures, the 9 stages of corpses and 6 sense bases extra?
bookworm
U.S.A. Veteran
Buddha Gotama attained Nirvana when he was sitting down under the Bodhi tree and using Anapanasati.
He said anapanasati completes the 4 foundations of mindfulness.
I know anapanasati has body which is the breath, feeling, mind, and mind objects and so does satipatthana, and since the Buddha sat under the bodhi tree for many days by practicing the 16 steps of anapanasati and attained nirvana and saw dependent origination for himself all the while by sitting down, it that means he didn't need to practice walking meditation and didn't contemplate the 9 stages of corpses and the stages of impurities in the 32 parts of the body and didn't note movement and posture in the body postures and clear understanding of going forward and looking back...etc
In satipatthana because its not in anapanasati and he was sitting down, also he must not have used the 6 internal and external sense bases because you can't in anapanasati and again because he was sitting, and he didn't use the Khandhas in the way you would in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and in the satipatthana sutta, because he was motionless and sitting down,
I can maybe see, just maybe see on how the Khandas could be in anapanasati because the breath is a body, which is form, and you also got your different kinds of feelings, and the perception of of knowing you are experiencing different feelings and the short, long breath and the whole breath, and on how breath calms the bodily formation, and you got your feeling and perception in experiencing rapture and bliss and the mental formations are i think in there as well,
including the last Khanda consciousness which is consciousness associated with jhanas.
Also the hindrances are in the satipatthana as well when you practice anapanasati when you are trying to go into jhana and the hindrances are also in liberating the mind when you liberate the mind of the hindrances, and liberate the mind from jhana factors, which is in the 12 step in the 3rd tetrad.
I didn't go into great detail on how i think possibly the Khandas could automatically be in each step when you practice the 16 steps of anapanasati but its just my guess, but they are not in Anapanasati.
Anyway i think you get the idea. Am i forgetting something or misunderstanding something that you could me understand better?
I'm sticking strictly with just Anapanasati the way the Buddha did under the bodhi, and not practice the satipatthana sutta, but if i fail or give up in Anapanasati then I will switch over to Mahasi Sayadaw Satipatthana Method that uses moment to moment awareness of mind and matter which i think is brilliant, and is without a doubt another way which when practiced as a monk all day for life will one day lead to Arahata-Magga as well.
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If you think about it how else could Buddha have attained Nirvana, why else would Buddha have said anapanasati completes the 4 foundation of mindfulness (satipatthana) since thats the way he did it under the Bodhi tree.
Breathing long
Breathing short
Experiencing the whole body
Tranquillising the bodily activities
Experiencing rapture
Experiencing bliss
Experiencing mental activities
Tranquillising mental activities
Experiencing the mind
Gladdening the mind
Centering the mind in samadhi
Releasing the mind
Contemplating impermanence
Contemplating fading of lust
Contemplating cessation
Contemplating relinquishment
Only the 4th tetrad leads to ending of effluence. The 2 method converges.
To summarize how to observe objects in vipassana practice, we should: 1) observe realities, not concepts or names; 2) be aware of knowing each object; and 3) observe each object from beginning to end as it arises and disappears in the present moment.
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm#w
With metta
Breathing long
Breathing short
Experiencing the whole body
Tranquillising the bodily activities
Experiencing rapture
Experiencing bliss
Experiencing mental activities
Tranquillising mental activities
Experiencing the mind
Gladdening the mind
Centering the mind in samadhi
Releasing the mind
Contemplating impermanence
Contemplating fading of lust
Contemplating cessation
Contemplating relinquishment
The first 3 tetrad leads to development of sati sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension). The 4th leads to ending of effluence.
With metta
I have memorized the anapanasati sutta and read the commentaries about it more than once.
And thank you for the Samādhibhāvanā Sutta @pegembra.
How long did it take for the Buddha to attain Nibbana?
/Victor
@Victorious I've read somewhere it took him 49 days.
Then it seems obvious that he did do other kinds of meditation. It is unlikely that he spent 49 days just sitting down.
At least he did eat and go to the toilet and sleep. So he must have done awareness meditation walkning, eating and lying down. This is normal procedure.
Then of course the other types of meditation are needed to hone the necessary skills to reach nibbana. And as pegembara noted meditation on the body is inherent in that sutta. And cemetary meditation is used for "fading of lust".
So I think there are a lot of things that are meant and just breifly mentioned in that sutta but not explicitly mentioned. The path cannot be determined by reading just one sutta.
There is a guy called Resaren on a Swedish site trying to do the same thing as you. But he also uses other suttas not only this one.
I think it is great but too tiresome for me to try.
Good luck though.
/Victor
I believe you're wrong, anapanasati is a complete form of meditation, and Buddha was no ordinary human being to be able to sit under the bodhi tree for that long, i believed he did sit there for days without moving and i believe he only used anapanasati and nothing else.
Just because the Buddha did not do any other kind of meditation during those 49 days does not mean he hadnt already developed the other qualities he needed earlier.
Qualitities he needed during those days.
Mahasi is the main mean man! But I can recommend Ajahn Brahms. Mindfullness, Bliss and Beyond. To get a inclination to the practical path to Nibbana and what is required and why.
/Victor
EDIT: I on the contrary believe the Buddha followed a path and portrayed a path that any human can follow and not only superhumans.
If you really believe that the Buddha used abilities that are not available to common people to reach nibbana then in that case it seem the path you are trying is impossible unless you have those abilities too.
EDIT2:
Here is a pdf.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajahn_Brahm-Mindfulness_Bliss_and_Beyond-Chapters1-5.pdf
What i am saying is that if say the buddha practiced anapanasati, lets say for 4 hours a day than it could have taken maybe 6 months or maybe a year, no way to know exactly when but since he gave it everything he had out of desperation to find a cause for suffering and he told himself he will not leave this spot until he finds the cause of suffering. He put his life on the line to discover the truth. And since he didn't meditate for just four hours a day when he got to the bodhi tree but many many days then so he was able to realize nirvana more quickly.
Yes that is a good technique. There are tales of the same kind of exertion in other religions.
Like when the god Odin hung himself from a tree pierced with a spear to reach for the esoteric knowledge.
I do recommend the Ajahn Brahms book. It is a good read. For an example it describes how to recognize an Arahant. Which in turn describes a lot about the path to nibbana.
@Victorious Oh thats very interesting about the Norse god i didn't know that, when i read the buddha's story and how much he struggled and suffered to find the cause of suffering, he resolve to find the truth was incredible and thank you for the book recommendation, i'll check it out.
...since the Buddha sat under the bodhi tree for many days by practicing the 16 steps of anapanasati and attained nirvana and saw dependent origination for himself all the while by sitting down, so that means he didn't need to practice walking meditation and didn't contemplate the 9 stages of corpses and the stages of impurities in the 32 parts of the body and didn't note movement and posture in the body postures and clear understanding of going forward and looking back...etc in satipatthana because its not in anapanasati and he was sitting down, also he must not have used the 6 internal and external sense bases because you can't in anapanasati and again because he was sitting, and he didn't use the Khandhas in the way you would in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and in the satipatthana sutta, because he was motionless and sitting down,
I see what you're saying, but unfortunately there isn't a consensus on the relationship between anapanasati and satipatthana. However it's worth observing that:
Several of the commentaries I've read say the main purpose of the first 3 tetrads is to develop jhana and concentration, with only the 4th tetrad being fully concerned with insight.
>
The Buddha was a completely ordinary human being, even according to himself. He refused to attribute any supernatural, special or wondrous quality to himself. he merely stated he was 'awake'.
He lived, breathed, moved, walked, urinated, defecated, ate, slept and died just like anyone else.
What he DID - was extraordinary.
off topic federica.
Not in the slightest. You are stating that he sat for 49 days without movement. I would say, that as an ordinary human being, he would not, and others have said the same.
Doubtless I have made off-topic posts before. This is not off-topic.
The Mahayana has a very different take on the issue of The Buddha being an ordinary human being.
In brief, the Mahayana says that he was not..that he was an emanation.
Just sayin'.
Well the Mahayana's wrong.
I'm kidding..........
I think the important thing is to be consistent to your own chosen path, and tolerant towards the rest.
Agreed......
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Actually the first 3 tetrads are insight and concentration, but you're right about the last tetrad being pure insight.
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@bookworm, this is too long and could contravene copyright guidelines, in some cases. Please just post an excerpt and a link to follow, for people to continue reading.
Thanks.
(You have around 4 hours to edit your post. or if you now post the link in a new post, I can do it for you....)
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I have to agree. The initial step is to develop the jhanas when the mind is sufficiently stilled (when the 5 hindrances are held abay). It is only then that one can begin to see the rise and fall of phenomenon/objects of meditation. This is sati sampajanna.
Have you studied the source material, ie the Anapanasati and Satipatthana Suttas?
@SpinyNorman All i need is the 16 steps of anapanasati and my refuge vows, i'll figure out the rest through self discovery. My breath is enough.
Oh and of course i'll need to keep the Kalama sutta in mind as well.
I suspect you will need more.
But Kudos. Please share in what you find out.
Kindly
Victor
@Victorious Sorry my mistake it didn't take buddha 49 days to attain nirvana by mindfulness of breathing, but it actually only took him 1 night.
The Mahayana view is that it took him thousands of lifetimes of effort.
A Samyaksambuddha does not arise in one night or one life.
According to Theravada it took Gotama Buddha 99 kalpas. And a concent from an earlier Buddha. (Kassapa I think)
But the final effort was in one night.
An Arahant (Sravakabuddha) can be made in much less than that and that is what bookworm is aiming at I think?
/Victor
Yes that's correct @Victorious, that's what I was aiming to say.
I admire your confidence, but practice isn't just about seated meditation. What framework are you using to maintain mindfulness _off _the cushion, if not the 4 frames of satipatthana?
@SpinyNormana Well i just do seated anapanasati but i haven't yet started to practice off the cushion, but when i decide to, i would just try to to be mindful of breathing, just being aware of just the in breath and out breath continuously and just be aware aware that i'm breathing, while doing whatever it is that i'm doing.
http://www.ocoy.org/original-yoga/how-to-meditate/the-breath-of-life-the-practice-of-breath-meditation/buddhist-tradition-of-breath-meditation/
this is a bit of a long read.
considerate warning. Thank you.
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Fair enough. I'd be interested to hear how you're approaching the 16 steps in practice - are you working through all of them?
And have you read Buddhadasa's commentary "Mindfulness with breathing"?
@SpinyNorman I've read Buddhadasa's mindfulness of breathing twice, but i didn't find it helpful. And no i'm not yet able to to work through all of the 16 steps as of yet, i found my meditation sessions goes much smoother when don't look for results or what step i'm at. I very recently changed my approach to mindfulness of breathing and i feel as though i somewhat got the 1 tetrad figured out.
What is Shakyamuni buddha doing now I wonder? He is a buddha so he must be doing something right? ... \ lol / ...
Please don't speculate on my behalf - my comment was purely a rhetorical device! - I am sure he's the local estate agent; always smiling he is!
In practice most people simplify or condense the practice, since 16 steps isn't really manageable in a single sitting - there's a chapter on this in "Breath by breath". Anyway, please don't dismiss satipatthana since there is an intimate relationship with the 4 tetrads. You might find it helpful to check out the Dhamma Wheel forum as this topic is regularly discussed over there.