Maha Saccaka Sutta holds the answer
bookworm
U.S.A. Veteran
When i first read the Maha Saccaka sutta when i was brand new to Buddhism, more than a year ago i always thought it was strange that when prince Siddhartha who became the Buddha learned the Jhanas by Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta that he realized it wasn't enough to find the truth, and he resorted to extreme practices of body mortification for six years, but then one day he recalled a memory of an incident at a ploughing festival while he was just a young boy, sitting under a under a cool shade of a rose apple tree secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities I entered & remained in the first jhana rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And the bodhisatta asked himself, could that be the path to Awakening? And he realized that indeed is the path to awakening.
The Maha Saccaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
Now I didn't get that, I asked myself, what is the difference between the concentration jhanas that he learned from Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, and the jhana he attained under the rose apple tree at the ploughing festival when he was a child. I asked myself what is the difference? I was stumped and i forgot about it entirely, then recently, actually more like yesterday i came across a teaching by Venerable U Vimalaramsi, and he said the Buddha discovered a form of meditation called Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation it would lead him to the experience of "tranquility jhanas" as opposed to 'concentration jhanas' This is absolutely wonderful!! The Jhanas in the suttas are the true way that leads to Nirvana, not the concentration jhanas that use nimittas. Suppressing the hindrances is not the right way. Its about relaxing the the tightness in the mind and body caused by a hinderance, or thought, distraction or pain and bringing back your attention to the breath and tranquilizing and expanding the mind instead of suppressing the hindrances through concentration.
Read this wonderful and insightful book is by Venerable U Vimalaramsi that teaches Tranquility Insight Wisdom Meditation that the Buddha used to awaken. To see the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination
http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Anapanasati-Sutta.pdf
Comments
I'm only half way to finishing this book, but i'm going to read it again and again and, many times until it becomes clear to me before i start to practice it. I believe this practice of Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation is the real deal, that I believe will lead to Supramundane Nirvana.
@bookworm I've heard that meditators can use concentration jhanas to realise nirvana. It's just a one sided approach and takes longer. However you get incredible one pointedness and can get magical powers. - Ven. Yutadhammo Bhikku.
He also says that through mindfulness to can also enter the jhanas as you said and seems to create insight at a faster level. He describes this approach as two sides of a triangle riding up to a point which is the spark of nirvana.
That's very interesting @Earthninja, i haven't had much luck with the concentration jhanas as found in the commentaries but after learning about this method, which is what the Buddha used, he also saw his past lives using tranquility wisdom insight meditation, i'm going to stick with this method that the Buddha remembered doing under the rose apple tree, when he was a young boy.
Great! After the finish the Visudimagga I'll read this book. Thanks for the book link, it looks good from first couple of pages
I'm really glad i can help Earthninja, and wow, i tried to read the Visuddhimagga once and i failed, i find it really difficult to read
@bookworm
The development of concentration leads to 4 benefits but is not sufficient on its own but needs to be yoked to vipassana. See the last para below.
thank you for sharing this beautiful and wonderful composition.
Aww shucks, why thank you Sova for that heart warming comment.
Just make sure you guys are careful, he could be telling the truth or he could completely lying. keep the Kalama sutta in mind
I lost myself to ignorance yesterday when i made this post, my excitement for what he had to say clouded my judgment, without first verifying for myself if what he says is true or not. This is why the Kalama sutta is there for in the first place, which i forgot.
I am still waiting for my order of the Visuddhimagga.
At 900 pages and your comment, I'm almost beginning to fear what lies in store for me
@dharmamom it's a big book! Incredibly insightful however I often have to meditate over each chapter to try and make sense of them.
Great tool box for any meditator. I think I may have to read it over and over again
Like lord of the rings
Anyway going back on topic, lol i still think its interesting though, what Vimalaramsi has to say. What did the Buddha mean when he said the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain, when he entered the first jhana? I'm going to look into Vimalaramsi teaching and investigate for myself, i'm not ruling it out entirely, even though i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding him.
Does anyone know what the Buddha meant by when he said he was quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, he entered & remained in the first jhana rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. What does he mean when he says the pleasant feeling that arose in him did not invade his mind or remain in Maha Sacca Sutta? Does anyone know?
there is the mindfulness that 'the present pleasant feeling' too subject to change?
I'm not to sure, i'm getting the impression that the buddha maybe might have discovered the middle way jhanas, thats not too extreme in pleasure and not invading, thats different from the jhanas that he learned and attained by Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. I'm just speculating.
It is a very difficult and tiresome read. Much filtering and comprehending is needed.
Several iterations will help. Good luck.
But I would rather recommend to stick with the suttas themselves and leave the commentaries. Even understanding the suttas themselves is an awesome task without other people putting their ideas in your mind... if you get what I mean?
/Victor
It just means he progressed through the jhanas - check out "absorption factors of jhana" and you'll see that these fall away as one progresses from 1st to 4th jhana.
Suppressing the hindrances is not the right way. Its about relaxing the the tightness in the mind and body caused by a hinderance, or thought, distraction or pain and bringing back your attention to the breath and tranquilizing and expanding the mind instead of suppressing the hindrances through concentration.
But real concentration arises once the hindrances have subsided, so it isn't a question of suppressing.
I agree with @SpinyNorman. It is a question of "relaxing" into the right mindframe. Not exerting force.
Fabrications are what needs exerting force to maintain. That is why suspense from them is so relaxing.
I am not sure about the distinction you are trying to make even if I think it is a fascinating topic to pursue @bookworm.
Well yeah he would have had too have progressed from the 1st jhana to the 7 jhana when he was learning from Alara Kalama before going to the 2nd teacher to learn about the 8th jhana, and that doesn't explain why the Buddha left dissatisfied when he attained all 8 Jhanas, and ended up resorting to self mortification for 6 years. What did he do differently when he thought back to the ploughing festival?
But when you go into the first jhana you are soaked in rapture and when rapture subsides, bliss takes over, can you really say that the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade your mind and remain?
Also from what i understand about concentration Jhanas, and by listening to Venerable Ajahn Brahm's Dhamma talks about Jhanas, is that you can enjoy the pleasure in them, and from what little i know about these tranquility jhanas as taught by Venerable U Vimalaramsi as soon as you like that pleasurable feeling it disappears instantly which you realize the pleasure is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and does not belong to oneself. I think maybe Venerable U Vimalaramsi is on to something. if i gained one thing is that, i now see the the immense value in the Maha Sacca Sutta.
I think what he meant was that he didn't let it proliferate and he didn't get attached to it. He noticed it with equanimity and let it go with clarity. It wasn't all that easy to talk about this stuff, even then...
I don't think one pointed concentration leads Nibbana.
That depends on what you mean with one-pointed concentration. Give an example?
@bookworm There's not just "one thing" that leads to Nibbana, AFAIK. Even the Noble Eightfold Path is much more than simply the meditative aspect of it.
But concentration is the basis for insight - the debate is really about what _level _of concentration is required. Note that in the suttas Right Concentration is defined in terms of the jhanas, which for some might be an inconvenient truth.
I think most would agree that both sati and samadhi need to be developed, and similarly the qualities of samatha and vipassana are both required.
The 5 occasions when a person attains Ariyahood.
-Listening to the Dhamma.
-Teaching the Dhamma.
-Repeating Dhamma.
-Reflecting on the Dhamma
-During Meditation
Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.3.26
Often it happened when someone was listening and hearing Buddha Gotama for the first time.
Ex: Supabuddha the Leper became a stream-enterer when listening
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html
Digha Nakha became a stream-enterer when listening and Sariputta arahantship.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.074.than.html
Upali who formerly belonged to Jains became a stream winner when listening and a Buddhist:
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/056-upali-e1.html
Bahiya became an Arahant when listening
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html
Is there a modern equivalent do you think?
This is getting old real quick, this will be my last comment on here, was the 1st jhana that he attained under the rose apple tree when he was little the same as the 1st jhana he attained from Alara Kalama? Yes or No, what do you think?
@bookworm No. The Buddha was pretty explicit that the meditation techniques he learned from his "teachers" were dead-ends that only led to themselves! He wasn't seeking to cultivate a mind-state such as "neither perception nor non-perception" or "nothingness". They can be good exercises for the mind, but they're not all that important and people can get hung up on them. At least for the Buddha these were not the key to Nirvana.
In any case it's probably a good idea to read the suttas and commentaries more widely in order to develop a better understanding of meditation practice.