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Boot camp Zen?

zenguitarzenguitar Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran

Greetings, magnanimous Sangha. I was recently watching In the World of Zen, a 1986 documentary on Zen Buddhism which documents the training of Zen monks at Shogen-ji temple in Japan.

I was surprised (and a little dismayed) to find that these monks basically live in a really harsh, boot camp-like environment. There is no sedate, dignified walking about here. The monks have to run from place to place, and even kinhin (walking meditation) is more like jogging meditation (I guess that makes sense though since they are wearing only thin robes and sandals in the dead of winter—another austerity). If the monks don’t get settled into their sleeping rolls fast enough, they get a whack with a stick from a senior monk.

Of course the meditation is sedate, but during the O-Sesshin (an intensive several day long period of meditation held annually to commemorate the enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha), the monks are not allowed to lie down during the whole time. They have to sleep sitting on their meditation cushions. In the film you can see them struggling to stay upright in the middle of the night, their breath freezing in the chilly air. I felt sorry for them, actually.

I was happy to see though that the monks are allowed a drink of rice wine each night (the fifth precept notwithstanding). They deserve at least one small indulgence for their efforts, I think.

Anyway, I am wondering, is this harsh, almost militaristic, training typical of all Zen monasteries? Or just Japanese Zen? Or just Rinzai (as opposed to Soto)? Or perhaps it’s only like this during O-Sesshin, but more relaxed at other times. I sure hope so, otherwise, so much for my impression of Zen as calm, unhurried, and serene.

Anyway, if you have 2 hours to spare, you can watch the quite excellent documentary yourself here:

Comments

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran

    I really think it depends on the monastery itself. Rinzai is traditionally known to be a lot harsher than Soto, but even then I don't think all Rinzai monasteries will be like a boot camp. Of course, for the purposes of a documentary, it's better to show the more extreme version for entertainment's sake. If you've read any of Brad Warner's earlier books (but especially Hardcore Zen), you can get a sense of how (Soto) Zen - even in Japan - can be taught in a dramatically different fashion depending on the teacher.

    For what it's worth, if you read about life at Wat Pah Nanachat and Wat Pah Pong (Ajahn Chah's monasteries), it's very similar. You can even read the general schedule here. Lots of work, not necessarily that much sitting meditation, but when it's an auspicious day they are supposed to meditate all day and night.

    You have to remember that we're talking about monasteries. Places where monastics live. To be as self-sufficient as possible with limited funds, and to carry Buddhist principles into everyday life, lots of work needs to be done. Who does the work? The residents!

    zenguitaryagr
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    @how said:
    Uuugggg! OK Harsh opinion alert!

    Thanks, @how your "harsh opinion" is most insightful. So if you feel this training isn't done right in Japan, may I ask, where is it done correctly?

  • It's no surprise that many Japanese Zen schools ended up designed like military boot camps, because they were ran by retired military officers who knew only one way to train a bunch of young men. If one of the upper class warriors had to find another profession or his side lost the battle and he survived, then he was faced with the choice (and sometimes even given orders) to become a monk. What you see is the life that a soldier had to endure, cloned behind temple walls.

    zenguitaryagrhowInvincible_summer
  • yagryagr Veteran

    The Buddha taught differently to different people, understanding that each had a different way of learning. Perhaps this particular method is useful to someone who is not me. Interestingly, this type of method would have worked very well for one of the me's I used to be.

    Invincible_summerseeker242
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    Thanks, how your "harsh opinion" is most insightful. So if you feel this training isn't done right in Japan, may I ask, where is it done correctly?

    @‌ zenguitar
    This is about the meditative examination of what constitutes the path towards suffering's cessation and what doesn't.

    When & where ever (in Japan or elsewhere) that compassion, sympathy, tenderness, benevolence, empathy, love & wisdom take precedence over cultural mores and dogma, then the transmission of such a practice takes one along a recognizable path towards suffering's cessation.

    When & where ever (in Japan or elsewhere) that cultural mores and dogma take precedence over compassion, sympathy, tenderness, benevolence, empathy, love & wisdom, then such a practice is really more akin to tribalism, (and suffering's cause) than anything that the Buddha promoted.

    Invincible_summerCinorjerlobster
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    Thanks, @how, but I should really rephrase my question so I don't sound anti-Japanese (I am not!). I am actually asking for practical advice here. Which schools, teachers, methods, etc of Zen do you think exemplify compassion, sympathy, tenderness, etc the best, in your opinion?

  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited July 2014

    Well, I'm kinda partial to Korean Zen, in particular the Kwan Um variation, but I don't have a lot of experience with the Japanese schools. However, I'd say any Zen school that is more focused on the lay population than on a segregated temple full of monks is more personable. But all of them, near as I can tell, think rules and an exhausting schedule are important.

    zenguitarInvincible_summer
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    Thanks, how, but I should really rephrase my question so I don't sound anti-Japanese (I am not!). I am actually asking for practical advice here. Which schools, teachers, methods, etc of Zen do you think exemplify compassion, sympathy, tenderness, etc the best, in your opinion?

    @zenguitar

    You don't need my own Soto Zen prejudices here.
    so.....

    While the foundation of the Buddha/Dharma exist in all schools of Zen,
    the quality of the resident teacher's practice determines whether their teaching manifests as selfishness or selflessness and is more relevant than which school they are with.
    All schools produce a range of teachers as wide as the human condition can allow for so that even good linage's can produce poor teachers and vise versa.
    Because everything changes, even excellent teachers can fail and poor teachers can blossom in their own time.

    My only practical (but perhaps not satisfying) advise is...

    The school, the teacher or the method are less important than your own exemplification of compassion, tenderness, empathy..etc. The degree to which you can open your own practice above all other priorities is the degree to which you will actually exemplify the qualities that you were hoping to see in a particular school/ teacher or method.

    zenguitarInvincible_summerlobsterCinorjer
  • DaveadamsDaveadams Veteran
    edited July 2014

    In my opinion which i think is the same point your making zenguitar, but i will stand to be corrected..Everyone should be a teacher of their own school, & there's only one pupil in their school which is themselves..All any teacher out there including the Buddha himself or Eckhart Tolle etc can ever tell a person, is how to do the training in order to realise an awakening that their not their minds identification with their thoughts..That can only be achieved through training & understanding their own mind, & will never be achieved by reading alone..Actions speak louder than words so once the words are learn't (the how to practice), it's all action from then on (practice until we realise something)..& so on, & so forth..Maybe we might need a teacher in the beginning, to get a handle on the training..But after that we have to teach/learn it to ourselves by doing the logical right things, then finding out we like it better than anything we ever did before..No one can follow the 8 fold path unless their aware of themselves & actions, when they have a chance to use it for "practice"..If a person we're to say their fully aware then they will already be following the 8 fold path, because they'll have realised that it's the best way to live because it feels the best for "them".

    zenguitarCinorjer
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    Thanks, @how and everyone else. I have wrestled with this idea of studying under a flesh-and-blood teacher for a while. Is it really necessary? The rugged individualist in me says no, I can do it on my own, forget gurus and roshis and whatnot--how can you tell if they are for real or not? But then another part of me wonders if I can really ever "get it" without a teacher, especially in Zen. Mahakashyapa needed the Buddha to show him the flower, and I am no Mahakashyapa. Hmm..

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran

    @zenguitar - You can just find an agreeable group to meet with every now and then when you feel like you need that support - almost all sanghas I know have have no stipulations that members must show up to every gathering.

    zenguitar
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    @zenguitar

    Perhaps there isn't a need to limit your options.

    You could practice on your lonesome while treating everyone as a potential teacher of something. This would allow you to continue to be objective about your practice decisions and if you do find yourself drawn towards a particular teacher, your developing meditative foundation can be the basis of assessing the appropriateness of committing to that particular teacher.

    lobsterEarthninjazenguitar
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @zenguitar‌ I wrestle with this to, @how made a great point. I'll do the same and maybe I will gravitate towards someone :)

    All I can add is learning to be an Olympic weightlifter without a flesh and blood coach is possible. But it would be much harder.
    If that coach is a former gold medalist, he was already walked the path and atleast could prevent you from making some mistakes.

    zenguitar
  • @zenguitar said:
    Thanks, how and everyone else. I have wrestled with this idea of studying under a flesh-and-blood teacher for a while. Is it really necessary? The rugged individualist in me says no, I can do it on my own, forget gurus and roshis and whatnot--how can you tell if they are for real or not? But then another part of me wonders if I can really ever "get it" without a teacher, especially in Zen. Mahakashyapa needed the Buddha to show him the flower, and I am no Mahakashyapa. Hmm..

    Having a flesh-and-blood teacher is not absolutely necessary, but it is a learning experience that you should take advantage of, if the opportunity comes along. We are social animals and a different part of our mind and brain becomes engaged when in a social setting and dealing with another person, versus lone meditation and contemplation or study. It's the difference between reading a book written by someone and getting the chance to hold a conversation with them.

    Life lived to its full capacity requires we seek out different experiences and learn from them. What's the worst that could happen? You discover that the particular teacher-student relationship isn't for you. But then you know instead of just wonder, because you've tried it.

    Just a thought.

    zenguitarInvincible_summer
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    Okay, thanks very much people, this is good advice.

  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @Earthninja said:
    zenguitar‌ I wrestle with this to, how made a great point. I'll do the same and maybe I will gravitate towards someone :)

    All I can add is learning to be an Olympic weightlifter without a flesh and blood coach is possible. But it would be much harder.
    If that coach is a former gold medalist, he was already walked the path and atleast could prevent you from making some mistakes.

    You know, your post gave me an insight. We Buddhists in the west actually should have translated the Japanese term "Zen Master" or "Zen Teacher" to "Zen Coach", because the relationship is actually that of coach. We understand Teacher-student as an almost passive, one way relationship. The Teacher presents knowledge, tests you as to how much you remember or understand about what you heard, and that's it. With a coach, you have to put in the hard effort and practice and the coach can guide you, but you have to get out there and do it. Nor do we expect the coach to be able to do that "triple back flip" on the mat or kick that ball into the net, but the coach knows how to guide us into doing it, if we want it bad enough.

    There are "Zen Masters" out there who taught Zen very well, but failed to live up to the teachings in their own lives. That didn't mean their students were not taught the correct Dharma. It certainly might mean the students could outshine the Teacher.

    So what do you think? Might saying "Zen Coach" and looking at it that way help resolve some mental issues?

    zenguitarEarthninjaInvincible_summer
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    Anyway, I am wondering, is this harsh, almost militaristic, training typical of all Zen monasteries? Or just Japanese Zen? Or just Rinzai (as opposed to Soto)? Or perhaps it’s only like this during O-Sesshin, but more relaxed at other times. I sure hope so, otherwise, so much for my impression of Zen as calm, unhurried, and serene.

    It's generally typical of zen monasteries in Japan. Japanese monasteries and centers in the US, not so much. Not very typical of traditional Korean or Vietnamese zen.

    I sure hope so, otherwise, so much for my impression of Zen as calm, unhurried, and serene.

    A lot of people do not consider "unhurried" to be appropriate! There is a saying that one should "practice like your hair is on fire" because death could occur at any moment. A sense of urgency in getting enlightenment is considered a good thing. Something to be cultivated.

    "Calm and serene" in zen terms really refers to how you hold your mind, rather than what you do with your body. I'm sure some of these monks are quite calm and serene, even while they are running around like crazy. :) For some people, this style of practice is quite helpful. :)

    I am actually asking for practical advice here. Which schools, teachers, methods, etc of Zen do you think exemplify compassion, sympathy, tenderness, etc the best, in your opinion?

    Thich Nhat Hanh comes to mind first! His style of teaching is very different from the disciplined approach of the strict Japanese style.

    zenguitarCinorjerDavid
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