Question about the first 2 factors of enlightenment, mindfulness and investigation of states.
bookworm
U.S.A. Veteran
When I was practicing mindfulness of breathing by letting go, i was being mindful, and I noticed that after a little bit of being mindful I saw mindfulness itself, I saw the intention of trying to be mindful and then I think I i saw mindfulness, and then i saw that i was observing or investigating that mindfulness, i saw i was being mindful of mindfulness. My question is if i was seeing mindfulness did i also have the 2nd enlightenment factor called investigation of states? and when the anapanasati sutta on the section on the 7 enlightenment factors says he investigates that state, is that state you're investigating mindfulness itself? Did I have the first 2 enlightenment factors in my sitting?
On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, abiding thus mindful,
a bhikkhu investigates, examines that state with understanding,
and embarks upon a scrutiny (of it)—on that occasion the
investigation-of-states enlightenment factor is aroused in him,
and he develops it, and by development it comes to perfection in
him.
Anapanasati sutta, read the section on the enlightenment factors on this link
http://satipatthana.learnmindfulness.org/read/doc/anapanasatisuttamn118trnaslatedbybhikkhunaoamoli
Comments
[Lobster faints - mindlessly no doubt] Que? :eek: .
Awareness of awareness you mean perhaps. Can you be mindful without being mindful of being mindful . . . gosh it's contagious . . .
I'm honestly not sure what happened, perhaps I made a mistake, and misunderstood my meditation experience.
@ lobster yeah it was like I was being aware of awareness itself, at least that is what I think happened.
Put simply it means using mindfulness to closely investigate experience. Seeing for example how mental states rise and fall.
That sounds about right.
What I would suggest:
As you know initially we bring awareness to a form. The breath or other. What you describe is awareness without attachment to a mundane form such as the breath. You are entering a more subtle form of awareness or attention. Attention to attentiveness.
You are certainly on track as far as I understand your question.
@lobster that makes perfect sense now that I think about it, that's exactly what I doing, thank you for helping me understand.
What form of meditation was I practicing? Was it Dzogchen?
What you describe Bookworm sounds (in a completely secular way) like the development of psychological insight, and I'm including the sutta you quoted. It's always interesting to me how the Buddha's teachings pre-date our so-called 'modern' strategies for wholeness and health. The differences seem primarily in the language used. A secular person using mindfulness in a purely psychological context may not be doing anything essentially different, but this too often upsets those who don't want to share their spiritual beliefs with the nonreligious.
Never mind I realized I wasn't practicing Dzogchen but something else entirely, my experience was truly wonderful, I think can use this method to eradicate the ego, awareness watching awareness, it is a method practiced by Sri Ramana Maharshi.
http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/
http://www.searchwithin.org/download/awareness_watching_awareness.pdf
@bookworm
=D
and thanks for the links. some wonderful material!
I especially like
"Look at the net [one's personal world] and its many contradictions. You do and undo at every step. You want peace, love, happiness and work hard to create pain, hatred and war. You want longevity and overeat, you want friendship and exploit. See your net as made of such contradictions and remove them - your very seeing will make them go."
My brother just said yesterday "Awareness is Fixing"
stay steadfast and genuine in your practice
@sova thank you, that is very kind of you, i'll do my best and may you progress well and realize the supreme goal of the 8 fold path.
This is why some traditions do not explain 'signposts'. I don't know if what you experienced means anything.
All i can do is continue to practice the same way i'm practicing and see for myself, time will tell, i'm going to give it my all, it was something new i never experienced before, and i'm really excited.
I was seeing what we call myself, it was the self that I was seeing.
Dear @bookworm,
It does not matter what we call it or whether we term it fullness, emptiness, Neti neti, Self or indeed forget the terminology. It is part of an infinite continuum both in depth and width.
When we begin to see the shadow of the rising sun we turn slowly towards its arising. Remember the sunscreen.
Is mindfulness the self?
@lobster
Thank you very much that is insightful, I will keep it in mind, and your right it doesn't matter what we call it.
I have no clue, i'm not going to say yes or no, cause i'm not sure, i don't know much, i don't know what the heck i'm doing most of the time, lol i'm just a newbie really, I don't know much about the Dhamma, I don't want to accidentally misrepresent the Buddha, just do the practice and do your best to follow the 8 fold path, and leave it at that i think that is good advice.
@bookworm I don't know what type of practice you follow, but when I taught meditation I called this "falling down the rabbit hole". We focus on our own mind in meditation and think "So this is me, meditating." But how can it be you, if you're the one doing the observing? You're observing yourself. How is this possible? Isn't that you? Thus in Zen we use the metaphor of the empty mirror. You can end up observing yourself observing yourself, etc, like a room full of mirrors with endless reflections.
So which one of the reflections is your real mind? Are you being mindful, or observing yourself being mindful?
Isn't meditation wonderful? There were times I felt like jumping up and running screaming from the meditation room, yelling "My mind is out to get me! Get it away from me!" But I suppose the other students would have had a collective heart attack.
I was just letting go
http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/abandon_release.htm
When you realise your real self bookworm or witness the present moment, you can't (but will try to) acknowledge it with your mind..So if you did witness your real self keep doing what ever your doing, & with a lot more practise you will be able to "know" when your in the present moment as your real self..Your'l probably do like i did which is to try to understand it with your mind, or to try to catch yourself in it which can't be done using the mind..It confused me but i kept at it, & eventually you will come to always "know" when your there or it..Remember it's a knack you have to find your self, which will lead to real realisation moments about life..You won't wake up one morning as your real self, & you won't be able to maintain it without shedding the need to think when you don't need to think..I am for what it's worth aware of my real self, which i see as the first step towards enlightenment whatever that actually is. :-)
Just thinking
;;.I am for what it's worth aware of my real self, which i see as the first step towards enlightenment whatever that actually is. :-)
Could you say a bit more about how you experience your real self?
Perhaps it was a mistake to say i was seeing the self, i don't know exactly what i was witnessing, i don't know if my experience was legitimate or a delusion, and there wasn't hundreds of reflections of me, but i saw what felt like two, what was unmistakable to me in my meditation was that there was me meditating, being mindful, putting effort, trying to let go, desiring peace, then there was another me watching me do all that, I was watching myself trying to be something or someone.
I couldn't find this other self, this self who was observing me meditate, it felt like there was two beings, or two of me, and i couldn't tell which one i was, anyway a desire to ask a question arose in me, i'm not sure if i asked myself this question while observing my self or when i got out of meditation or if at all, but i really felt like wanting to ask myself, who am I?
>
By forgetting I even exist....
@Daveadams thank you very much.