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@Cinorjer said: @misecmisc1 I will respond by asking you (and whomever else wants to respond) a few questions to ponder and answer from the koan. I think pondering these three points might help more than an analysis of yet another display of Suchness:
What does Beyan mean by the "Great Matter" that Dongshan is asked if he understands or not?
What is a "turning word"? Beyan said he was unsatisfied with the one Dongshan gave him the day before. What was the turning word that proved unsatisfying for Beyan?
There is no detail in a koan that is meaningless. Why does the koan point out that Dongshan flapped his sleeves?
Sir, if I try to answer your above questions on this koan, then I have cheated in this koan because I heard a commentary on this case, so I got the answer of the first question in the talk - but your second and third questions were not discussed fully in it.
So I will still try to answer your questions, though the first answer is a cheated answer, because you can also understand that how come can I know what is the great matter, without reading it anywhere, as I am a stupid ignorant person with lot of defilements, so how can I understand anything by myself. But anyways, below are the answers to your questions, please check the second and third answer as it is based on my understanding of the koan from the commentary on it by a Zen monk.
The Great Matter is the matter of life and death.
Turning word for Beyan might be the word, which shall not be definitely defining anything, rather on the contrary should be something which would destablize the existing understanding from the base. So when Dongshan said he did not go in and out of the curtain, meaning he is not born and not die, then since he explicitly said that it showed that he knew this thing, but how can he know this thing that he does not get born and he does not die. So Beyan said that certainly Dongshan did not understand the matter completely, or has missed the point by going too far in the emptiness side. Since Beyan would have thought that Dongshan might rest in that knowing of emptiness, so he dismissed Dongshan's understanding on his face bluntly.
The above rejection of Dongshan's understanding by Beyan, would have made him slightly angry (if Beyan would have said it in a shouting manner) or would have made Dongshan frustrated (if Beyan would have said it in a calm manner) because Dongshan might have thought the teacher itself is agreeing on his understanding, so may be the teacher is not enlightened enough to teach him something more. So in either of the two situations, Dongshan flapped his sleeves and waled away.
So please check the above 3 answers - may be even the first one is also wrong, as I have done mistake even in cheating , silly me . Please correct the answers where they are wrong and then please ask some more questions or please explain the koan in some detail. Thanks in advance.
If you lived back in the Dongshan days, I have the feeling your name would be appearing once or twice in the old koan stories before you were done.
For those not familiar with the language of the koans, the "Great Matter" is indeed the matter or problem of life and death. It rolls all the associated questions into one big "What is the nature of life and death and what is my relationship with it?"
And the "turning word" is the word or phrase or action by a Master that causes the student to pause and comprehend the lesson. If life is a joke, the turning word is the punch line.
What follows is a mini-play that causes you to question who is the master and who is the student.
And in a culture where respect and conduct is everything and you all wear big robes with wide sleeves, flapping your sleeves is a severe display of unhappiness at what you'd said or heard. Dongshan wasn't happy with that initial exchange and neither was Beyan. So they had another go at it. Even for the masters, sometimes a conversation doesn't go the way you'd like. Hey, nobody's perfect.
@Cinorjer: Sir, then few questions from me for the above koan, which I was not able to understand.
1. When Beyan asked the first name and last name of the imperial inspector (who we can imagine to be a big personality like president, whose name everybody knows), then why did Dongshan said - he did not know his name. Was Beyan asking something which is not obvious from the said words in the question?
2. Next day, when Beyan again asked the same question - Do you go in and out? - then why did Dongshan said - Awesome? What meaning did Beyan got from it, that after that they had their retreat together?
Please tell. Thanks in advance.
Hi All,
Please tell the answers to the above queries. Thanks in advance.
@misecmisc1 said:
Cinorjer: Sir, then few questions from me for the above koan, which I was not able to understand.
1. When Beyan asked the first name and last name of the imperial inspector (who we can imagine to be a big personality like president, whose name everybody knows), then why did Dongshan said - he did not know his name. Was Beyan asking something which is not obvious from the said words in the question?
2. Next day, when Beyan again asked the same question - Do you go in and out? - then why did Dongshan said - Awesome? What meaning did Beyan got from it, that after that they had their retreat together?
Please tell. Thanks in advance.
Hi All,
Please tell the answers to the above queries. Thanks in advance.
You might as well ask why Joshu balanced his shoes on top of his head when asked for the word of Zen. The questions about the imperial inspector are the mind hook in the koan. Every koan has some detail that grabs your mind and you must free yourself from that hook like a fish thrashing around in the water before you can chew on the koan.
Beyan starts off by asking questions that Dongshan actually would probably not know the answers to. In fact, Beyan seems to be deliberately asking a "Don't know" question. Why would a lowly monk know the name of a high level flunky in the Imperial bureaucracy? They would certainly have never met and this important official probably spent all his time in the Imperial City. On top of that, these officials tended to get their heads chopped off on a regular basis when they gave the Emperor bad news. And why would Beyan want to know such a useless piece of information, anyway? So our mind is hooked. Our minds insist on focusing on the great mystery of the imperial inspector and why he is so important.
Then Beyan suddenly switches topics and asks Dongshan if he knows the answer to the Great Matter. Your mind cannot follow Beyan because it's still hooked on the inspector. Such a marvelous trap! It's like I talked about the weather with you and suddenly asked you what is the meaning to life. You're probably going to stare at me, your mind blank. On the other hand, you might give an honest "How should I know?" answer which is probably what Beyan expected.
Dongshan gives a "Just like this" or "Suchness" response.
"Why did Bodhidharma come from the West?" "The tree in the courtyard." "What is the solution to the Great Matter?" "The curtain in the hallway."
But Beyan seems to have misunderstood that curtain response as a straight metaphor. He wants to know if Dongshan is saying death and birth is a curtain that the self passes through. That would be a poor answer and a defective turning word. Knowing he was misunderstood, Dongshan leaves finally in frustration.
Now as for the second turning word. Why did Dongshan say "awesome!"
When I look out my window, there is a foot of snow on the ground that arrived overnight. What does it mean?
@SpinyNorman said:
So we're all enlightened and no need for practice, no need for koans? Sounds good to me!
My understanding of Dogen's teachings says: we by our true nature are already enlightened, but the problem is we have forgotten our true nature, so we need to practice to realize our true nature and when we shall realize our true nature or the nature of way things are, then after that we cannot help but practice, which shall be the natural way our enlightenment shall manifest, without we needing to do practice. As far as koans are considered, life as the fundamental koan shall always be in front of us, even after enlightenment.
But I am a stupid ignorant person, so might be I have not theoretically understood some of Dogen's teachings or might be my theoretical understanding of Dogen's teachings is totally wrong - but the above thoughts came to my mind, based on what I heard in some dharma talks on Dogen's teachings by a Zen monk.
Hi @Cinorjer/all,
Please correct me wherever my understanding of Dogen's teachings is incorrect. Thanks in advance.
My understanding of Dogen's teachings says: we by our true nature are already enlightened, but the problem is we have forgotten our true nature, so we need to practice to realize our true nature...
That's really not much different from the Theravada view, where enlightenment is viewed as cessation of the taints, the "removal" of unwholesome tendencies.
Comments
And what is exactly life, if but an ever-changing combination of physical phenomena and mental processes?
Sir, if I try to answer your above questions on this koan, then I have cheated in this koan because I heard a commentary on this case, so I got the answer of the first question in the talk - but your second and third questions were not discussed fully in it.
So I will still try to answer your questions, though the first answer is a cheated answer, because you can also understand that how come can I know what is the great matter, without reading it anywhere, as I am a stupid ignorant person with lot of defilements, so how can I understand anything by myself. But anyways, below are the answers to your questions, please check the second and third answer as it is based on my understanding of the koan from the commentary on it by a Zen monk.
So please check the above 3 answers - may be even the first one is also wrong, as I have done mistake even in cheating , silly me
. Please correct the answers where they are wrong and then please ask some more questions or please explain the koan in some detail. Thanks in advance.
@misecmisc1
You don't give yourself near enough credit.
If you lived back in the Dongshan days, I have the feeling your name would be appearing once or twice in the old koan stories before you were done.
For those not familiar with the language of the koans, the "Great Matter" is indeed the matter or problem of life and death. It rolls all the associated questions into one big "What is the nature of life and death and what is my relationship with it?"
And the "turning word" is the word or phrase or action by a Master that causes the student to pause and comprehend the lesson. If life is a joke, the turning word is the punch line.
What follows is a mini-play that causes you to question who is the master and who is the student.
And in a culture where respect and conduct is everything and you all wear big robes with wide sleeves, flapping your sleeves is a severe display of unhappiness at what you'd said or heard. Dongshan wasn't happy with that initial exchange and neither was Beyan. So they had another go at it. Even for the masters, sometimes a conversation doesn't go the way you'd like. Hey, nobody's perfect.
@Cinorjer: Sir, then few questions from me for the above koan, which I was not able to understand.
1. When Beyan asked the first name and last name of the imperial inspector (who we can imagine to be a big personality like president, whose name everybody knows), then why did Dongshan said - he did not know his name. Was Beyan asking something which is not obvious from the said words in the question?
2. Next day, when Beyan again asked the same question - Do you go in and out? - then why did Dongshan said - Awesome? What meaning did Beyan got from it, that after that they had their retreat together?
Please tell. Thanks in advance.
Hi All,
Please tell the answers to the above queries. Thanks in advance.
You might as well ask why Joshu balanced his shoes on top of his head when asked for the word of Zen. The questions about the imperial inspector are the mind hook in the koan. Every koan has some detail that grabs your mind and you must free yourself from that hook like a fish thrashing around in the water before you can chew on the koan.
Beyan starts off by asking questions that Dongshan actually would probably not know the answers to. In fact, Beyan seems to be deliberately asking a "Don't know" question. Why would a lowly monk know the name of a high level flunky in the Imperial bureaucracy? They would certainly have never met and this important official probably spent all his time in the Imperial City. On top of that, these officials tended to get their heads chopped off on a regular basis when they gave the Emperor bad news. And why would Beyan want to know such a useless piece of information, anyway? So our mind is hooked. Our minds insist on focusing on the great mystery of the imperial inspector and why he is so important.
Then Beyan suddenly switches topics and asks Dongshan if he knows the answer to the Great Matter. Your mind cannot follow Beyan because it's still hooked on the inspector. Such a marvelous trap! It's like I talked about the weather with you and suddenly asked you what is the meaning to life. You're probably going to stare at me, your mind blank. On the other hand, you might give an honest "How should I know?" answer which is probably what Beyan expected.
Dongshan gives a "Just like this" or "Suchness" response.
"Why did Bodhidharma come from the West?" "The tree in the courtyard." "What is the solution to the Great Matter?" "The curtain in the hallway."
But Beyan seems to have misunderstood that curtain response as a straight metaphor. He wants to know if Dongshan is saying death and birth is a curtain that the self passes through. That would be a poor answer and a defective turning word. Knowing he was misunderstood, Dongshan leaves finally in frustration.
Now as for the second turning word. Why did Dongshan say "awesome!"
When I look out my window, there is a foot of snow on the ground that arrived overnight. What does it mean?
Awesome!
Nirvana.
Can enlightenment happen outside life - or - can enlightenment be separated from life?
Yes. Thus have I heard Enlightenment described:
"With this life, but not OF it."
My understanding of Dogen's teachings says that every moment of life is nothing but enlightenment, if it is 'just' lived.
So we're all enlightened and no need for practice, no need for koans? Sounds good to me!
My understanding of Dogen's teachings says: we by our true nature are already enlightened, but the problem is we have forgotten our true nature, so we need to practice to realize our true nature and when we shall realize our true nature or the nature of way things are, then after that we cannot help but practice, which shall be the natural way our enlightenment shall manifest, without we needing to do practice. As far as koans are considered, life as the fundamental koan shall always be in front of us, even after enlightenment.
But I am a stupid ignorant person, so might be I have not theoretically understood some of Dogen's teachings or might be my theoretical understanding of Dogen's teachings is totally wrong - but the above thoughts came to my mind, based on what I heard in some dharma talks on Dogen's teachings by a Zen monk.
Hi @Cinorjer/all,
Please correct me wherever my understanding of Dogen's teachings is incorrect. Thanks in advance.
My understanding of Dogen's teachings says: we by our true nature are already enlightened, but the problem is we have forgotten our true nature, so we need to practice to realize our true nature...
That's really not much different from the Theravada view, where enlightenment is viewed as cessation of the taints, the "removal" of unwholesome tendencies.