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just to add, after seeing my nephew develop, all people are essentially old BABIES.
babies will act horribly foolish because of their limited understanding,
think of these killers as that, IDIOT BABIES who didn't know how to deal with things and probably didn't have a sangha to help them...
hell even I might have joined alqaida if I didn't have any friends or buddist online friends, BABIES look for a place to belong, psychology can get so F'd up...
I surely hope this is braggadocio. Al-Qaeda is easily the most sinister organization in our times; cutting off fingers, ripping peoples' faces off with piano wire, using mentally retarded women as human bombs, etc. It would be troubling to imagine someone only a broken friendship away from joining their ranks.
Of course many criminals behave stupidly and irrationally and cause misery for society. But if all of them were "idiot babies," wouldn't every murder or criminal conviction just fall flat because we deem them insane? What about the cold, calculating murderers who voluntarily and carefully murder people because they just think they should? I see nothing in the Fort Hood terrorist's bio to suggest that he is insane or mentally ill. His ideology simply demanded that kind of behavior and he followed through with it. He wasn't crazy in the slightest.
I would suggest it may be simple cause-and-effect, i.e. if you don't plant the seeds of violence (death penalty) and instead sow the seeds of forgiveness and rehabilitation, you reap the benefits of a more peaceable society.
I think in the case of the US, there is actually a prior cause. Violence is baked into the national self-concept as a result of the War of Independence, the Civil War and WWII, all of which are seen as necessary, just, nation-defining applications of violence.
I surely hope this is braggadocio. Al-Qaeda is easily the most sinister organization in our times; cutting off fingers, ripping peoples' faces off with piano wire, using mentally retarded women as human bombs, etc. It would be troubling to imagine someone only a broken friendship away from joining their ranks.
Of course many criminals behave stupidly and irrationally and cause misery for society. But if all of them were "idiot babies," wouldn't every murder or criminal conviction just fall flat because we deem them insane? What about the cold, calculating murderers who voluntarily and carefully murder people because they just think they should? I see nothing in the Fort Hood terrorist's bio to suggest that he is insane or mentally ill. His ideology simply demanded that kind of behavior and he followed through with it. He wasn't crazy in the slightest.
Many of those in the ranks of Al-Quada and the like are there for economic reasons. A man in poverty, who has nothing to lose and not much to live for, can only benefit from joining such an organization. It's hard for us in the west (where even someone such as myself, poor by American standards (my wife and I live on less than $20,000/year) lives in relative comfort) to imagine, but desperate situations breed extreme actions.
In what way is the death penalty a deterrent? We've had this "eye for an eye" notion of punishment for as long as human civilization has existed and so far it doesn't seem to have stopped much killing, theft or rape.
There is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty reduces the murder rate. that argument does not hold water.
There is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty reduces the murder rate.
I thought that was too good to be true. Look for the summaries of the two studies by Mocan and Shepherd in the Deterrence section of the link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_debate
It's actually rather difficult to tell if capital punishment has any effect.
What about the cold, calculating murderers who voluntarily and carefully murder people because they just think they should? I see nothing in the Fort Hood terrorist's bio to suggest that he is insane or mentally ill. His ideology simply demanded that kind of behavior and he followed through with it.
Braggadocio is empty bragging or boasting. I don't see any evidence of boasting in that post.
Why would anyone say that they would join Al-Qaeda given a slight change in their life? I don't know how to take it. Is it a boast? Imagine if I said, "Heck, I'm 1 bounced check away from just picking up my gun and going Mormon-hunting in Utah!" I should hope you would all be as horrified as I am by talking about Al-Qaeda this way.
Poverty does not breed terrorism. How absurd! The bin Ladens are multi-millionaires and many of the 9/11 hijackers were educated and well-off. There's a huge leap to be made from having no money to butchering people en masse.
Evidence?
That Major Hassan was sane or that he was driven by jihadist ideology?
I'd be happy to get more. Also, check out The Al-Qaeda Reader which is a collection of writings by bin Laden and others outlining their motives. Eerie similarities with Major Hassan.
I agree with you that poverty is not the primary driving force behind fundamentalist terrorism. Terror in the Name of God makes a pretty strong case (based on actually interviewing terrorists around the world) that the driving force is the humiliation of perceived imperialist subjugation.
Thanks for the slides; that was interesting. They establish pretty clearly that he was tortured by the possibility that he would have to kill a fellow believer if deployed to Iraq. I don't think they establish any more than that.
Agreed. What we now call terrorism is what used to be called violent revolutionary conspiracy. James Billington traces the phenomenon back to Babeuf's Conspiracy of Equals during the French Directorate. He points that the members of these conspiracies tend to be well educated young men who have been unable to find a place for themselves in society. IIRC, the conspirators of 9/11 were engineering graduates or had similar education. They had experienced discrimination in Europe where they studied, and then had been unemployed when they went home. Weathermen, Red Army Faction, Japanese Red Army; all middle class kids with college educations.
The Taliban is a different matter. Many of it's recruits come from families that have been living in refugee camps since the 1980s. Poverty plays a role, but so does violence and dislocation, along with tribal identity.
Not really. The slides show that Hassan was conflicted over his literalist reading of the Koran. They do not show that Hassan bought into the logic of bin Laden's fatwa, or other al Qaeda literature.
Once Hassan starts talking, he may turn out to be an al Qaeda jihadist. But the evidence now just shows a personal conflict, not a political one.
(Fort hood could have been a cover up..(no offense)
you think the US would ever let news of a terrorist successfully infiltrating, and massacring a base..get out? hmmm something like that would certainly needed to be covered up...
think of 9/11, people bought that....even though some things were suspicious..(no offense) )
But back to the topic of the DC sniper being executed.
What can we conclude..
I think we can conclude that, keeping millions of people in jail for life-times, it costs too much.
Killing them, is also wrong. When someone is evil or confused. They need to be FIXED..not scrapped...if you can't fix something it's because of your skill level..that's why we need more Buddhas, more enlightenment,
However since we don't have a method...maybe future technology could do something... who knows...since we don't have a method now..
Killing them is probably the lesser of the evils. I don't like to hear from you guys ...I get this feeling from some of you..
that "sure just kill them!! "
"of course!!! kill them!!" "justice etc etc"
NO. we should remember it isn't a good solution. We all lose something more when people are put to death..like amputating your arm because it is cancerous... it may be the only way , but it still sucks.
Well, with this kind of thing, you can't really trust the statistics, because everyone's got an agenda. But I did hear that executing someone actually ends up costing more on average than incarcerating them for life, because it guarantees that their legal team will escalate to the highest court possible.
Yeah, on average it costs about 10 times more to pursue the death penalty than to pursue life without parole and then pay to incarcerate them for the rest of their life. Not that I particularly like either choice. Be nice if we paid more attention to rehabilitating than punishing in this country. Other countries do that with some success. We used to at least try (sort of), but even that has disappeared for the most part. Nobody votes for somebody who wants to actually help people, practice Christian charity and forgiveness, and other silly relics of the past.
As for the culture of violence in American culture you mentioned, 5B, there may be something to that, but then I think about the Dutch. They have one of the most liberal societies in the world with very low crime rates and a lenient criminal justice system, but yet they also have a long history of violence and oppression. Think of their vast colonial holdings all around the world, from New York to Indonesia to Surinam to South Africa (Boers), much of which was characterized by brutish oppression of the locals. Yet they seem to have worked things out pretty well at home. So I don't know that you can blame it on the culture of justifiable violence. How about the cowboy mentality?
I actually registered to this site because I saw this thread. The amount of animosity being shown because someone doesn't share your same views on capital punishment is ironic. So many people espousing love and compassion as the answer, and showing such intolerance.
(Fort hood could have been a cover up..(no offense)
you think the US would ever let news of a terrorist successfully infiltrating, and massacring a base..get out? hmmm something like that would certainly needed to be covered up...
think of 9/11, people bought that....even though some things were suspicious..(no offense) )
If you truly believe both of these things, then I think I may be ashamed to ever call myself a Buddhist again. Because you obviously do, and spout things such as this. Belittling the deaths of these people with supposed conspiracy theories shows almost as much of a lack of compassion as a murderer.
...So many people espousing love and compassion as the answer, and showing such intolerance.
...
If you truly believe both of these things, then I think I may be ashamed to ever call myself a Buddhist again. Because you obviously do, and spout things such as this. Belittling the deaths of these people with supposed conspiracy theories shows almost as much of a lack of compassion as a murderer.
I look into the mirror of lostmonk, and see myself looking into the mirror of thefound, and see myself looking into the mirror of conspiracy theories, and it's all me.
The amount of animosity being shown because someone doesn't share your same views on capital punishment is ironic.
↓
If you truly believe both of these things, then I think I may be ashamed to ever call myself a Buddhist again. Because you obviously do, and spout things such as this. Belittling the deaths of these people with supposed conspiracy theories shows almost as much of a lack of compassion as a murderer.
It may be a conspiracy theory, but it has nothing to do with "belittling their deaths." I feel I can safely say that TheFound's statement was not meant to suggest any lack of compassion for those who died, and might in fact be taken in quite the opposite way...
It may be a conspiracy theory, but it has nothing to do with "belittling their deaths." I feel I can safely say that TheFound's statement was not meant to suggest any lack of compassion for those who died, and might in fact be taken in quite the opposite way...
Come here to NYC, and see how people who lost loved ones react when you start talking about 9/11 was a conspiracy of the US government and such. All of these half baked theories that have been disproven over and over, very much take away from the loss of thousands of peoples friends and loved ones. That giant hole in the ground is a constant, and close, reminder.
The difference is, the Dutch are embarassed by that history. In the US, it's celebrated. (The cowboy mentality is part of that celebration.)
Yeah, you've got a point there.
As for conspiracy theories, I think they're just part of the whole gossip mentality that afflicts people, especially Americans. We just can't believe that anything could be as it appears, and we always want to know the supposed dirt about everything. Pretty sick, if you ask me. I agree with lostmonk on that one.
I've recently noticed you tweeked your signature again, adding: Compassion is Revolution!
Over the last few years, I must say, I have enjoyed your signatures immensely.
Would you expound on the new phrase here for me? —I mean, the history or origin and other thoughts connected with that theme. I think it's really apropos in this thread.
Anyway, the quote comes from the title of one of Jetsunma's music albums that she has done over the last couple of years. I like it because it implies that true revolution is about compassion. When you think about it, the Buddha was a true revolutionary.
Come here to NYC, and see how people who lost loved ones react when you start talking about 9/11 was a conspiracy of the US government and such.
I can certainly understand how they would react that way. But thefound doesn't show any evidence of malice, and he doesn't seem to be guilty of anything other than being wrong.
As for conspiracy theories, I think they're just part of the whole gossip mentality that afflicts people, especially Americans. We just can't believe that anything could be as it appears, and we always want to know the supposed dirt about everything.
Humans have a notoriously hyperactive ability to find patterns. We find patterns in clouds, random events, etc. I don't think this is anything other than that.
I actually registered to this site because I saw this thread. The amount of animosity being shown because someone doesn't share your same views on capital punishment is ironic. So many people espousing love and compassion as the answer, and showing such intolerance.
No. But if you go back and read the responses, there is a lot more than disagreement. I am in no way excusing KoB's seeming troll posts, but if people want to preach as a result of them, then shouldn't they be showing the values they are talking about?
No. But if you go back and read the responses, there is a lot more than disagreement. I am in no way excusing KoB's seeming troll posts, but if people want to preach as a result of them, then shouldn't they be showing the values they are talking about?
So you complain about the animosity between the posters on this discussion (which I have found to be nothing but civil) and then proceed to call my postings "trolling" and offer no evidence of the charge.
Trollan internet term for a person who willfully, through obscene, offensive or hateful actions (a.k.a. "trolling"), attempts to disrupt a community or garner reactions, attention and controversy.
Quote my hatred, offense, obscenity, disruption, etc. Controversy. Sure. But it's a debate! Of course there is controversy.
I have done nothing but present my views. If you don't like them, tough. Make a response. Challenge them. Offer better ones. But don't join a site just so you can tell someone who has been posting here for 5 years that they're behaving troll-like.
So you complain about the animosity between the posters on this discussion (which I have found to be nothing but civil) and then proceed to call my postings "trolling" and offer no evidence of the charge.
Quote my hatred, offense, obscenity, disruption, etc. Controversy. Sure. But it's a debate! Of course there is controversy.
I have done nothing but present my views. If you don't like them, tough. Make a response. Challenge them. Offer better ones. But don't join a site just so you can tell someone who has been posting here for 5 years that they're behaving troll-like.
Again with the poor reading comprehension. Since you seem to like definitions so much:
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Anyway, you ridiculed a quote of the Buddha, on a Buddhist site. That in itself could be regarded as a offense, obscenity or disruption. The entire point of my saying that though, is based not on what you are saying, but the manner in which you are saying it. More often you seem to choose to goad people, rather than just explain your position. That is clear trolling.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
So he was right in assuming that you were outright accusing him of trolling, and his reading comprehension isn't so bad afterall?
Anyway, you ridiculed a quote of the Buddha, on a Buddhist site. That in itself could be regarded as a offense, obscenity or disruption.
Did the quote attributed to the Buddha take offence?
Perhaps TheFound was actually quoting Martin Luther King, Jr. or Nixon?
He wasn't ridiculing the Buddha (or the quote), he was questioning the validity of the premise itself, said he had not seen proof of it himself, and asked for an example that showed the premise to hold any weight.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
The amount of animosity being shown because someone doesn't share your same views on capital punishment is ironic
Humans have a notoriously hyperactive ability to find patterns. We find patterns in clouds, random events, etc. I don't think this is anything other than that.
That's probably true, but the end result is that it is likely to breed hatred, mistrust, and general paranoia. So it's something best to be avoided, I'd say. It's like the people who say that contrails (normal reactions to hot jet exhaust in frigid air) are really chemtrails that the government is using to spread mind-altering drugs onto the unsuspecting populace. That is more than just harmless speculation, imho. That's malicious and dangerous, not to mention lint-headed (ever stop to think how vast a conspiracy that would have to be?). Humans have lots of bad habits. That doesn't mean we should indulge them (and I don't mean to say that you are in any way suggesting that we do).
More often you seem to choose to goad people, rather than just explain your position. That is clear trolling.
He brags about about creating debate and he often makes controversial statements without backing them up. That may be irritating, but it's not goading. It's clearly not trolling.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
Capital punishment is part of the law in Thailand and Sri Lanka, both democracies and both majority Buddhist. So it appears to be supported by a very large number of people who have been Buddhists all their lives. I disagree with KoB about capital punishment, but telling him that he looks sad doesn't seem like a very good argument.
That's probably true, but the end result is that it is likely to breed hatred, mistrust, and general paranoia. So it's something best to be avoided, I'd say.
I agree that we should avoid it. I also agree that it can be dangerous when used for political purposes or to harm someone. In a case where no harm is intended, I think it's enough to treat it as normal human error.
Also, personal attacks on the conspiracy theorist just make you part of the conspiracy. ;-)
Again with the poor reading comprehension. Since you seem to like definitions so much:
Anyway, you ridiculed a quote of the Buddha, on a Buddhist site. That in itself could be regarded as a offense, obscenity or disruption. The entire point of my saying that though, is based not on what you are saying, but the manner in which you are saying it. More often you seem to choose to goad people, rather than just explain your position. That is clear trolling.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
You come here, inject yourself in the middle of a conversation, after signing up for apparently no other reason than to inject yourself into the middle of this conversation. You have 4 posts thus far and all consist of berating long time posters here, and you have the gall to accuse someone else of trolling?
You have 4 posts thus far and all consist of berating long time posters here, and you have the gall to accuse someone else of trolling?
We shouldn't be attached to how long they've been posting, but instead about the content they contribute.
I can see where lostmonk is coming from. I don't post often (when I do it is very little) but I read a lot. Someone who is unfamiliar with KoB and his writing style might mistake what he does for trolling. After all, this is a Buddhist forum and not killing is a very important part of Buddhism.
(Imagine going to a christian chatroom and not acting christian: you would be called a troll and likely banned.)
but I don't believe KoB is deliberately causing trouble, this is just his opinion and this is how he expresses it. S.O.P (standard operating procedure)
I don't think anyone has given you a proper greeting yet lostmonk, how unskillful to forget our manners.
Welcome Lostmonk (we're all a little lost) stick around, read a little, post a little, we all share the same path.
Again with the poor reading comprehension. Since you seem to like definitions so much:
Anyway, you ridiculed a quote of the Buddha, on a Buddhist site. That in itself could be regarded as a offense, obscenity or disruption. The entire point of my saying that though, is based not on what you are saying, but the manner in which you are saying it. More often you seem to choose to goad people, rather than just explain your position. That is clear trolling.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
Well maybe we could make a different thread about this. There is one already about the merits of debating procedures here (a thread which no doubt you will find has suffered the cruel hand of my trolling). And this thread is about the death penalty and the morality of murder/killing.
A true troll in my opinion would not bother responding to criticism, but if you look carefully at this entire thread, you'll see that I did my best to respond to all points made against my position. During the course of my responses, I did not insult anyone here personally, nor did I goad anyone. (Is goading to you simply someone who you disagree with arguing with you?)
I'll try to prove my non-trollness again my responding as clearly as I can to your charges.
The quotation about love and hate was not brought up in Buddhist context to the best of my knowledge. I've heard it a million times and did not know the original author of it, whether it was the Buddha, Gandhi, or someone else entirely.
That said, when questions were raised about my position, I delved into it deeper to explain that while I accepted the quotation (and Jesus' similar dictum) in the sense of the micro in life, I questioned its validity and application in the macro. (i.e. functioning in a large society, between nations, etc...)
That is clear trolling.
So my reading apprehension isn't bad? Either way, if you still would like the pursue the matter, PLEASE quote me. You have not provided any evidence.
I really don't see what all the hang-up is. Debates about debating are just boring.
Capital punishment is part of the law in Thailand and Sri Lanka, both democracies and both majority Buddhist. So it appears to be supported by a very large number of people who have been Buddhists all their lives. I disagree with KoB about capital punishment, but telling him that he looks sad doesn't seem like a very good argument.
I think this is a very importanty point. Add to it that Christmas Humphreys (1901-1983), a well-respected Buddhist writer, translator and founder - in the 1920s - of the London Buddhist Society, was also prosecutor and, later, judge in capital murder trials at a time before we in the U.K. ended capital punishment.
It cannot be taken for granted that a Buddhist, simply by being Buddhist, will oppose the death penalty, however much we may wish it were so.
As a result, and in light (as others have pointed out) of his usual provocative debating style, KoB helps us to clarify our own position and to justify it. No bad thing, I suggest.
uhhhh yeah about my post and 9/11 and all that, of course I didn't mean any offense. I didn't use any type of 'belittling' !? I can't find where I did.. MY BAD!?
...and I'm offended that you are offended...because I'm a really empathic person, FOR REAL...anyway I'm not an American..
I'm just talking how I see 'potentials'
and of course I can be very very wrong..
But I'll be honest I do believe that just because a lot of good people lost their lives, ...and maybe you know some that did OR you live there..
it doesn't mean there is no conspiracy there, try to be open minded like me and say "what ifs"
AND I never really meant 'conspiracy' like; "the puppeteers of America who hold 99% of the money and power in the USA ,would have intelligent strategists working for them who would tell them of incoming economic crisis 20+ years ago, and the quickly approaching decline of the American standing in the world., thus they would advise strongly to obtain resources, however they could and if they couldn't reach diplomatic solutions , they would do whatever it takes to secure America's future... Even if they have to enter into war unjustly,sell arms to 3rd world countries, support politically dubious characters and lie to their people.. ETC ETC"
((You know the average American would rather have his/her economy crash, and country degrade to a 3rd world country... then to do all that BAD stuff ..right?
that is me being facetious,but IF that speculation is wrong that's fine, boo on me, my bad..i'm an idiot ... but what if this potential reality is right?))
About my previous post I didn't mean ALL THAT...
I meant 'Suspicious', as in perhaps minor damage control, using the media, etc etc.... leaving out details..we all know the angle that, America is a hero-country, who will fight evil and is the big brother that everyone looks up to, and a target for evil people...but what about that angle of
"whatever it takes" ? Don't you think it's their responsibility to leave out details, as to not upset the masses?
As a Buddhist I believe we should examine all angles and possibilities,
Being a Buddhist I've seen how much I lie to myself, for my desires, ego etc, and how I've brainwashed myself to perceive reality wrongly
Imagine if I was a government, and the country was my body.
I'd hurt myself and lie, I'd do what it takes to survive healthily, I'd do what it takes to keep my body happy, and satisfy it's desires, :wtf:
anyway I may sound like a big facetious idiot ass, it sucks that when we post things, we can't include our tone, mine though is very gentle, pleading, open your mind and try to look without emotional blinders..
Comments
I surely hope this is braggadocio. Al-Qaeda is easily the most sinister organization in our times; cutting off fingers, ripping peoples' faces off with piano wire, using mentally retarded women as human bombs, etc. It would be troubling to imagine someone only a broken friendship away from joining their ranks.
Of course many criminals behave stupidly and irrationally and cause misery for society. But if all of them were "idiot babies," wouldn't every murder or criminal conviction just fall flat because we deem them insane? What about the cold, calculating murderers who voluntarily and carefully murder people because they just think they should? I see nothing in the Fort Hood terrorist's bio to suggest that he is insane or mentally ill. His ideology simply demanded that kind of behavior and he followed through with it. He wasn't crazy in the slightest.
I think in the case of the US, there is actually a prior cause. Violence is baked into the national self-concept as a result of the War of Independence, the Civil War and WWII, all of which are seen as necessary, just, nation-defining applications of violence.
Many of those in the ranks of Al-Quada and the like are there for economic reasons. A man in poverty, who has nothing to lose and not much to live for, can only benefit from joining such an organization. It's hard for us in the west (where even someone such as myself, poor by American standards (my wife and I live on less than $20,000/year) lives in relative comfort) to imagine, but desperate situations breed extreme actions.
There is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty reduces the murder rate. that argument does not hold water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_debate
It's actually rather difficult to tell if capital punishment has any effect.
Evidence?
Why would anyone say that they would join Al-Qaeda given a slight change in their life? I don't know how to take it. Is it a boast? Imagine if I said, "Heck, I'm 1 bounced check away from just picking up my gun and going Mormon-hunting in Utah!" I should hope you would all be as horrified as I am by talking about Al-Qaeda this way.
Poverty does not breed terrorism. How absurd! The bin Ladens are multi-millionaires and many of the 9/11 hijackers were educated and well-off. There's a huge leap to be made from having no money to butchering people en masse.
That Major Hassan was sane or that he was driven by jihadist ideology?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/why-i-murdered-13-american-soldiers-at-fort-hood-nidal-hassan-explains-it-all-to-you.html
I'd be happy to get more. Also, check out The Al-Qaeda Reader which is a collection of writings by bin Laden and others outlining their motives. Eerie similarities with Major Hassan.
Thanks for the slides; that was interesting. They establish pretty clearly that he was tortured by the possibility that he would have to kill a fellow believer if deployed to Iraq. I don't think they establish any more than that.
The Taliban is a different matter. Many of it's recruits come from families that have been living in refugee camps since the 1980s. Poverty plays a role, but so does violence and dislocation, along with tribal identity.
That's interesting. But I agree with 5B. I think Rubin is over interpreting the evidence.
I've read bin Laden's fatwa and some other stuff. I have a pretty good idea of bin Laden's justifications.
Not really. The slides show that Hassan was conflicted over his literalist reading of the Koran. They do not show that Hassan bought into the logic of bin Laden's fatwa, or other al Qaeda literature.
Once Hassan starts talking, he may turn out to be an al Qaeda jihadist. But the evidence now just shows a personal conflict, not a political one.
you think the US would ever let news of a terrorist successfully infiltrating, and massacring a base..get out? hmmm something like that would certainly needed to be covered up...
think of 9/11, people bought that....even though some things were suspicious..(no offense) )
But back to the topic of the DC sniper being executed.
What can we conclude..
I think we can conclude that, keeping millions of people in jail for life-times, it costs too much.
Killing them, is also wrong. When someone is evil or confused. They need to be FIXED..not scrapped...if you can't fix something it's because of your skill level..that's why we need more Buddhas, more enlightenment,
However since we don't have a method...maybe future technology could do something... who knows...since we don't have a method now..
Killing them is probably the lesser of the evils. I don't like to hear from you guys ...I get this feeling from some of you..
that "sure just kill them!! "
"of course!!! kill them!!" "justice etc etc"
NO. we should remember it isn't a good solution. We all lose something more when people are put to death..like amputating your arm because it is cancerous... it may be the only way , but it still sucks.
A better way is needed in the future:crazy:
As for the culture of violence in American culture you mentioned, 5B, there may be something to that, but then I think about the Dutch. They have one of the most liberal societies in the world with very low crime rates and a lenient criminal justice system, but yet they also have a long history of violence and oppression. Think of their vast colonial holdings all around the world, from New York to Indonesia to Surinam to South Africa (Boers), much of which was characterized by brutish oppression of the locals. Yet they seem to have worked things out pretty well at home. So I don't know that you can blame it on the culture of justifiable violence. How about the cowboy mentality?
Palzang
If you truly believe both of these things, then I think I may be ashamed to ever call myself a Buddhist again. Because you obviously do, and spout things such as this. Belittling the deaths of these people with supposed conspiracy theories shows almost as much of a lack of compassion as a murderer.
I look into the mirror of lostmonk, and see myself looking into the mirror of thefound, and see myself looking into the mirror of conspiracy theories, and it's all me.
It may be a conspiracy theory, but it has nothing to do with "belittling their deaths." I feel I can safely say that TheFound's statement was not meant to suggest any lack of compassion for those who died, and might in fact be taken in quite the opposite way...
Come here to NYC, and see how people who lost loved ones react when you start talking about 9/11 was a conspiracy of the US government and such. All of these half baked theories that have been disproven over and over, very much take away from the loss of thousands of peoples friends and loved ones. That giant hole in the ground is a constant, and close, reminder.
Yeah, you've got a point there.
As for conspiracy theories, I think they're just part of the whole gossip mentality that afflicts people, especially Americans. We just can't believe that anything could be as it appears, and we always want to know the supposed dirt about everything. Pretty sick, if you ask me. I agree with lostmonk on that one.
Palzang
I've recently noticed you tweeked your signature again, adding:
Compassion is Revolution!
Over the last few years, I must say, I have enjoyed your signatures immensely.
Would you expound on the new phrase here for me? —I mean, the history or origin and other thoughts connected with that theme. I think it's really apropos in this thread.
Tanks, and
- __
- (bullets)
Don't make furRee L
Peace.
Anyway, the quote comes from the title of one of Jetsunma's music albums that she has done over the last couple of years. I like it because it implies that true revolution is about compassion. When you think about it, the Buddha was a true revolutionary.
Palzang
Humans have a notoriously hyperactive ability to find patterns. We find patterns in clouds, random events, etc. I don't think this is anything other than that.
Disagreeing with someone = intolerance?
No. But if you go back and read the responses, there is a lot more than disagreement. I am in no way excusing KoB's seeming troll posts, but if people want to preach as a result of them, then shouldn't they be showing the values they are talking about?
So you complain about the animosity between the posters on this discussion (which I have found to be nothing but civil) and then proceed to call my postings "trolling" and offer no evidence of the charge.
Quote my hatred, offense, obscenity, disruption, etc. Controversy. Sure. But it's a debate! Of course there is controversy.
I have done nothing but present my views. If you don't like them, tough. Make a response. Challenge them. Offer better ones. But don't join a site just so you can tell someone who has been posting here for 5 years that they're behaving troll-like.
Again with the poor reading comprehension. Since you seem to like definitions so much: Anyway, you ridiculed a quote of the Buddha, on a Buddhist site. That in itself could be regarded as a offense, obscenity or disruption. The entire point of my saying that though, is based not on what you are saying, but the manner in which you are saying it. More often you seem to choose to goad people, rather than just explain your position. That is clear trolling.
And since you want to trumpet about how long you have been posting here, one would think that in 5 years, you would have left if you disagree with something so basic as a the Buddhist stance against killing. Rather than make yourself look good, it instead makes you look rather sad.
So he was right in assuming that you were outright accusing him of trolling, and his reading comprehension isn't so bad afterall?
Did the quote attributed to the Buddha take offence?
Perhaps TheFound was actually quoting Martin Luther King, Jr. or Nixon?
He wasn't ridiculing the Buddha (or the quote), he was questioning the validity of the premise itself, said he had not seen proof of it himself, and asked for an example that showed the premise to hold any weight.
That's probably true, but the end result is that it is likely to breed hatred, mistrust, and general paranoia. So it's something best to be avoided, I'd say. It's like the people who say that contrails (normal reactions to hot jet exhaust in frigid air) are really chemtrails that the government is using to spread mind-altering drugs onto the unsuspecting populace. That is more than just harmless speculation, imho. That's malicious and dangerous, not to mention lint-headed (ever stop to think how vast a conspiracy that would have to be?). Humans have lots of bad habits. That doesn't mean we should indulge them (and I don't mean to say that you are in any way suggesting that we do).
Palzang
He brags about about creating debate and he often makes controversial statements without backing them up. That may be irritating, but it's not goading. It's clearly not trolling.
Capital punishment is part of the law in Thailand and Sri Lanka, both democracies and both majority Buddhist. So it appears to be supported by a very large number of people who have been Buddhists all their lives. I disagree with KoB about capital punishment, but telling him that he looks sad doesn't seem like a very good argument.
Also, personal attacks on the conspiracy theorist just make you part of the conspiracy. ;-)
You come here, inject yourself in the middle of a conversation, after signing up for apparently no other reason than to inject yourself into the middle of this conversation. You have 4 posts thus far and all consist of berating long time posters here, and you have the gall to accuse someone else of trolling?
We shouldn't be attached to how long they've been posting, but instead about the content they contribute.
I can see where lostmonk is coming from. I don't post often (when I do it is very little) but I read a lot. Someone who is unfamiliar with KoB and his writing style might mistake what he does for trolling. After all, this is a Buddhist forum and not killing is a very important part of Buddhism.
(Imagine going to a christian chatroom and not acting christian: you would be called a troll and likely banned.)
but I don't believe KoB is deliberately causing trouble, this is just his opinion and this is how he expresses it. S.O.P (standard operating procedure)
I don't think anyone has given you a proper greeting yet lostmonk, how unskillful to forget our manners.
Welcome Lostmonk (we're all a little lost) stick around, read a little, post a little, we all share the same path.
Well maybe we could make a different thread about this. There is one already about the merits of debating procedures here (a thread which no doubt you will find has suffered the cruel hand of my trolling). And this thread is about the death penalty and the morality of murder/killing.
A true troll in my opinion would not bother responding to criticism, but if you look carefully at this entire thread, you'll see that I did my best to respond to all points made against my position. During the course of my responses, I did not insult anyone here personally, nor did I goad anyone. (Is goading to you simply someone who you disagree with arguing with you?)
I'll try to prove my non-trollness again my responding as clearly as I can to your charges.
The quotation about love and hate was not brought up in Buddhist context to the best of my knowledge. I've heard it a million times and did not know the original author of it, whether it was the Buddha, Gandhi, or someone else entirely.
That said, when questions were raised about my position, I delved into it deeper to explain that while I accepted the quotation (and Jesus' similar dictum) in the sense of the micro in life, I questioned its validity and application in the macro. (i.e. functioning in a large society, between nations, etc...)
So my reading apprehension isn't bad? Either way, if you still would like the pursue the matter, PLEASE quote me. You have not provided any evidence.
I really don't see what all the hang-up is. Debates about debating are just boring.
I think this is a very importanty point. Add to it that Christmas Humphreys (1901-1983), a well-respected Buddhist writer, translator and founder - in the 1920s - of the London Buddhist Society, was also prosecutor and, later, judge in capital murder trials at a time before we in the U.K. ended capital punishment.
It cannot be taken for granted that a Buddhist, simply by being Buddhist, will oppose the death penalty, however much we may wish it were so.
As a result, and in light (as others have pointed out) of his usual provocative debating style, KoB helps us to clarify our own position and to justify it. No bad thing, I suggest.
...and I'm offended that you are offended...because I'm a really empathic person, FOR REAL...anyway I'm not an American..
I'm just talking how I see 'potentials'
and of course I can be very very wrong..
But I'll be honest I do believe that just because a lot of good people lost their lives, ...and maybe you know some that did OR you live there..
it doesn't mean there is no conspiracy there, try to be open minded like me and say "what ifs"
AND I never really meant 'conspiracy' like; "the puppeteers of America who hold 99% of the money and power in the USA ,would have intelligent strategists working for them who would tell them of incoming economic crisis 20+ years ago, and the quickly approaching decline of the American standing in the world., thus they would advise strongly to obtain resources, however they could and if they couldn't reach diplomatic solutions , they would do whatever it takes to secure America's future... Even if they have to enter into war unjustly,sell arms to 3rd world countries, support politically dubious characters and lie to their people.. ETC ETC"
((You know the average American would rather have his/her economy crash, and country degrade to a 3rd world country... then to do all that BAD stuff ..right?
that is me being facetious,but IF that speculation is wrong that's fine, boo on me, my bad..i'm an idiot ... but what if this potential reality is right?))
About my previous post I didn't mean ALL THAT...
I meant 'Suspicious', as in perhaps minor damage control, using the media, etc etc.... leaving out details..we all know the angle that, America is a hero-country, who will fight evil and is the big brother that everyone looks up to, and a target for evil people...but what about that angle of
"whatever it takes" ? Don't you think it's their responsibility to leave out details, as to not upset the masses?
As a Buddhist I believe we should examine all angles and possibilities,
Being a Buddhist I've seen how much I lie to myself, for my desires, ego etc, and how I've brainwashed myself to perceive reality wrongly
Imagine if I was a government, and the country was my body.
I'd hurt myself and lie, I'd do what it takes to survive healthily, I'd do what it takes to keep my body happy, and satisfy it's desires, :wtf:
anyway I may sound like a big facetious idiot ass, it sucks that when we post things, we can't include our tone, mine though is very gentle, pleading, open your mind and try to look without emotional blinders..