The Bhikkhuni Sangha

Deshy · January 2010

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions about the women in spiritual pursuits and hope to hear your thoughts about this please

1) Is Bhikkhuni (female monks) ordination done in any country? I know there are some countries with female monasteries and female monks but most of these "monks" are just nuns attaining to the 10 SILs and not really monks. They are not fully ordained. Why has this privilege been rejected for women?

2) I have gone through the Bhikkhuni Vinaya (the disciplines of the female monks) which the Buddha had enforced and it seems pretty aligned with the "male dominated" system they had in the ancient society. It has always made me wonder why the Buddha, being the person who was against discrimination, disregarded the casts and creeds, made the Vinaya in such a way that the female sangha was "second" to the male sangha.

It is also said that the Buddha refused Bhikkhuni ordination three times even when his step mother made a request for it. I wonder why

Any thoughts?
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Jeffrey · January 2010

I believe there is some ordination in China. The reason there is not ordination in other places is that invaders killed all the female monks of a certain status. It was a rule that an existing female of that status had to be present to ordinate more. Since they were all dead none could be ordinated. Evidently a line survived in China.

allanstevns · January 2010

Deshy wrote: »

Hi everyone,
1) Is Bhikkhuni (female monks) ordination done in any country? I know there are some countries with female monasteries and female monks but most of these "monks" are just nuns attaining to the 10 SILs and not really monks. They are not fully ordained. Why has this privilege been rejected for women?

I dont know about other traditions, but in Tibet the Bhikkhuni lineage simply never arrived.... Its not that women ordination has been rejected, its just that, when buddhism arrived in Tibet, the bhikkhune ordination apparently wasnt able to go along for some reason.
I dont know if its because the sangha who brought buddhism to Tibet, was only or mostly male, but it just kinda got "left behind"
Women in the tibetan traditions, are more than welcome to receive the full Bhikkhuni ordination from the Chinese schools, and i read recently that actions are being taken to encourage tibetan nun to go and take the Bhikkhuni ordination in the chinese Dharmagupta lineage, in order to fix the obvious hole in the "tibetan package"

Much love

Allan

sukhita · January 2010

Also look at this thread:

Bhikkunis - or the first nuns, would half the length of his teachings?

DhammaDhatu · January 2010

In the Buddha's time, the ideal of the monk was living in the forest practising and the wandering around India teaching. Only during the rainy season (due to dangerous flooding) did they live in monastaries.

The monk's life was called the 'homeless life' in contrary to the 'household life'.

So my guess is, allowing women to ordain created problems & burdens similar to the household life, such as women having to be protected, women having to live all year round in monasteries, men get angry when their wives left them for the bhikkhuni life, etc.

A good example is the Apostle Thomas, who went to India after Jesus departed. He acquired a number of female disciples and was subsequently killed by their jealous husbands.

In brief, women in the Sangha of forest dwellers & lone wanderers (rhinoceroses) could bring trouble and burdens, similar to that of the household life.

Kind regards

:smilec:

DhammaDhatu · January 2010

Hi again

Below is my post from another site, to which a Thai member agreed with about the qualities of Thai culture.

My impression of classical Thai culture, having spent a number of years living in Southern Thailand, is it is very matriarchial. Personally, I have never seen women give so much love to their children as I witnessed in the village culture. One could melt with so much love.

In terms of village life, the women are not subordinate but the opposite. One watches them round up the lazy men if a day's work is required.

When one sees a young couple walking together, the woman will be very outgoing & expressive, including of her beauty & body language, whilst the male will remain quite subdued & deferring, with head down.

The young women are very outgoing but very moral. If walking through the village and/or rice fields, the young women radiate such glowing smiles towards you. The older women, if topless, will catch your eye with a rye smile, forcing you to drop your head. If in the local town, the school girls will surround you and test your moral attitude.

Most Thai men will spend 3 months in the monastary, where they learn about Buddhism and received education on how to be a good husband. Whilst many men do not want to do the 3 months, they are generally forced to by their mothers. Not only do their mothers want them to be good husbands, but the mother gains merit for her rebirth.

In short, the outgoing, expressive, deeply maternal and matriarchical character of Thai women and the subdued man is the model of classic Thai culture. This we can see in the photo below, of the young king & queen. Or the other photo shows how Thais promote female beauty as a goddess or deity.

Personally, my guess is the Thai do not regard bhikkhuni as a good role model for women whilst they regard bhikkhu as a good role model for men. I personally can see the merits in this.

Every highly attained Thai monk I have known has praised the deep love he received from his mother & female caregivers.

BrotherBob · January 2010

Hi Deshy,

Please check out these links!

http://www.sravastiabbey.org/photogallery/2006/dec06interview.html

and

http://www.sravastiabbey.org/founder.html

Shalom and Hugs

Deshy · January 2010

Personally, my guess is the Thai do not regard bhikkhuni as a good role model for women whilst they regard bhikkhu as a good role model for men. I personally can see the merits in this.

Every highly attained Thai monk I have known has praised the deep love he received from his mother & female caregivers.

I don't get it. Women really have the capacity to be more than just loving mothers and gentle caregivers
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Deshy · January 2010

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

So my guess is, allowing women to ordain created problems & burdens similar to the household life, such as women having to be protected, women having to live all year round in monasteries, men get angry when their wives left them for the bhikkhuni life, etc.

I don't understand the justice in thinking that it is better if women did not ordain because their husbands might get angry and kill each other. Lol

Same goes to the Bhikkuni Vinaya: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,2666,0,0,1,0

This is horribly sexist and I cannot believe for once the Buddha enforced these. I understand certain rules like this:

2. A nun is not to stay in a residence where there is no monk. (A monk may take an independent residence.)

Understandable. Women need more protection and support in harsh conditions so there is a reason for them to stay near the monks rather than isolating themselves in the forest. But what justification can anyone give to the following rather than pure sexism:

1. A nun, even if she has been ordained for 100 years, must respect, greet and bow in reverence to the feet of a monk, even if he has just been ordained that day. (Monks pay respect to each other according to their seniority, or the number of years they have been ordained.)

It's a joke to say the least. Most of all it clearly looks like an addition from Hindu influence.

All in all, there is a visible resistance at least from certain cultures to female ordination.
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Deshy · January 2010

Brother Bob wrote: »

Hi Deshy,

Please check out these links!

http://www.sravastiabbey.org/photogallery/2006/dec06interview.html

and

http://www.sravastiabbey.org/founder.html

Shalom and Hugs

Thanks Bob

DhammaDhatu · January 2010

Deshy wrote: »

I don't get it. Women really have the capacity to be more than just loving mothers and gentle caregivers
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Most people do not seek enlightenment. A robe is not required for enlightenment.

Thai society is hierachical, with monks at the top. Most Thai's do not wish to have bald women dressed in burkas at the top of the tree.

:smilec:

DhammaDhatu · January 2010

The bhikkuni issue is not an important issue. The enlightened masters of the 20th century in Thailand, such as Ajahn Chah, did not regard it as an important issue.

Ajahn Chah said the environment for practise should be "good enough for enlightenment".

Some monks maintain the monastaries & the teachings, etc, and the rest of us practice with them for enlightenment.

If the bhikkhunis work out in Australia or the USA, then fine, because the Western society can probably accommodate it better.

But the basic issue with most Western Buddhists is they have not spent extensive time living in monasteries. When they hear or see a monk, like Bhikkhu Bodhi or Thanissaro, they automatically regard these monks as enlightened.

If one lives in monastaries and has some dhamma vision, one sees many monks and nuns are just like us, namely, ordinary people struggling with their minds and unenlightened.

In a monastery, there are monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen. Some of the monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen gain some enlightenment and some of the monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen do not.

I have personally seen nuns attached to monks like a wife is attached to husband.

Bhikkunis in the West are fine because Western people are hyper-sensitive to superficial notions of "injustice", "sexism", etc. This is just worldly distraction. Religious people generally enjoy distraction.

Having bhikkunis teaching you Dhamma will still not help your mind get enlightened. Many monks & nuns are caught up in worldliness in monastaries, being the teacher, etc. Their distractions are many.

In the West, meditation centres were generally run by laypeople, including many women.

In the end, it all does not make much difference.

:smilec:

Deshy · January 2010

Ordination is not a necessity for practice but I think it helps. I know it doesn't "guarantee enlightenment". This is not about "Bhikkuni ordination is not an absolute necessity for practice so it is not important". This is about "IF there is a woman who needs to take the robes because she thinks it helps her practice and the society has some restriction to it because she is a woman then it is unfair".

I certainly do not have any intention to take the robes but I find it a missing page that women who are willing to do it, do not have the necessary facilities or the encouragement as the men have in most cultures. Once again this is not a matter of debate whether this is important or not this is a matter of personal choice.

It's like the good old days where people thought "It is not that important for women to have higher education"
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DhammaDhatu · January 2010

Deshy wrote: »

This is about "IF there is a woman who needs to take the robes because she thinks it helps her practice and the society has some restriction to it because she is a woman then it is unfair".

There are many monasteries & places where a woman can live & practise.

It's like the good old days where people thought "It is not that important for women to have higher education".

Irrelevant.

75. One is the quest for worldly gain and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.

Balavagga

Palzang · January 2010

allanstevns wrote: »

I dont know about other traditions, but in Tibet the Bhikkhuni lineage simply never arrived.... Its not that women ordination has been rejected, its just that, when buddhism arrived in Tibet, the bhikkhune ordination apparently wasnt able to go along for some reason.
I dont know if its because the sangha who brought buddhism to Tibet, was only or mostly male, but it just kinda got "left behind"
Women in the tibetan traditions, are more than welcome to receive the full Bhikkhuni ordination from the Chinese schools, and i read recently that actions are being taken to encourage tibetan nun to go and take the Bhikkhuni ordination in the chinese Dharmagupta lineage, in order to fix the obvious hole in the "tibetan package"

Much love

Allan

Sorry, that's not accurate, Allan. There were indeed fully ordained nuns in Tibet when Buddhism first came there (via Padmasambhava and Shantarakshita, who performed the first ordinations in Tibet). However, during the suppression of Buddhism by King Langdarma the nun ordination lineage (gelongma) was lost because those who carried the ordination lineage were either killed or forced to drop their robes. There is a lot of interest in Western Vajrayana nuns to rekindle that lineage. The main problem is finding a pure lineage that still exists in, say, Chinese Buddhism or whatever. Some, like Thubten Chodron, have received full ordination, usually in a Chinese lineage, so hopefully that will restart it. It really needs to be done.

Palzang

Brigid · January 2010

I completely agree with everything you've said, Deshy.

Palzang,

How was Pema Chodron ordained?

BrotherBob · January 2010

'...Chinese lineage of Buddhism in 1981 in Hong Kong.' http://www.gampoabbey.org/ane_pema/index.html

:):)

P.S. Same route as Ven. Thubten Chodron (Hum?) although Ven Thubten Chodron is now ordaining other women, in the USA.

Stephen · January 2010

The reasoning behind some of the extra vinaya rules and the subservient role to bhikkhus was not of discrimination or unworthiness. It had to deal with the way women were viewed in India at the time, and if these concessions were not made, the bhikkuni order would not have been possible or at the very least would have been fraught with such societal ill-will that not many would have chosen it.

At least, that's my understanding from several sources I turned to for my own education in the Dhamma.

BrotherBob · January 2010

I got to thinking about whether or not Ven Chodron actually acted as preceptor for the full ordination of female monastics and found this reference:

'Western Bhiksunis in the Tibetan Traditions

Western women ordained in the Tibetan traditions have led the way in receiving full bhiksuni ordination. Among the earliest to do so were Ven. Freda Bedi, Ven. Pema Chodron, and Ven. Tsultrim Palmo. Ven. Tenzin Palmo who was ordained a samaneri in 1964, travelled to Hong Kong for her higher ordination in 1973. Ven. Karma Lekshe Tsomo recieved full bhiksuni ordination in South Korea in 1982, Ven. Jampa Tsedroen in Taiwan in 1985, Ven. Thubten Chodron in Taiwan in 1986, Ven. Jampa Chokyi in Hong Kong in 1987/8, Sanghe Khandro and a few others at Hsi Lai Temple in 1988 and '89, five at the International Buddhist Meditation Center in Los Angeles in 1996, and eleven from Samye Ling in Scotland at Bodhgaya in India in 1998. Venerable Bhiksunis Karma Lekshe Tsomo and Thubten Chodron, now elders, participated as preceptors in the 1998 Bodhgaya bhiksuni ordinations in India.

Venerable Karma Lekshe Tsomo has broken new ground in International Women's Buddhism in establishing the Sakyadhita Conferences on Buddhist Women around the world, and Venerables Pema Chodron, Tenzin Palmo and Thubten Chodron have become well known for both their extensive Dharma teaching and for their efforts in establishing Centers for women's monastic education and practice: Bhiksuni Pema Chodron at Gampo Abbey in Nova Scotia, Bhiksuni Tenzin Palmo at Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery in India (see above) and Bhiksuni Thubten Chodron at Sravasti Abbey in the State of Idaho in the Northern United States.' bhikkhunicommittee.googlepages.com/World_Bhiksuni_Sangha_History-_by_Yeo_Kwang.doc

(sorry don't know how to get a direct link on this - I just googled 'Bhiksuni ordination sravasti abbey' and got lots of stuff)

:):)

Palzang · January 2010

Boo, Pema Chodron received her novice ordination from Karmapa XVI and then bhikshuni (gelongma) in the Chinese lineage in Hong Kong, which is also what Ven. Thubten Chodron did.

Palzang

Brigid · January 2010

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

Most people do not seek enlightenment. A robe is not required for enlightenment.

Thai society is hierachical, with monks at the top. Most Thai's do not wish to have bald women dressed in burkas at the top of the tree.

:smilec:

I don't even know how to respond to that...

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

The bhikkuni issue is not an important issue.

There were many ways you could have responded to this issue. That you chose to say this not once, but twice, is so deeply offensive I can't even put it into words.

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

The enlightened masters of the 20th century in Thailand, such as Ajahn Chah, did not regard it as an important issue.

If Ajahn Chah and all the other 'enlightened masters of the 20th century in Thailand' had no regard for the profound desire of any woman to become ordained they were not enlightened masters.

To deny the fundamental right to make any choice, much less one as important as this to more than half of the world's population is indefensible. To completely dismiss it out of hand is abhorrent.

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

Some monks maintain the monastaries & the teachings, etc, and the rest of us practice with them for enlightenment.

If the bhikkhunis work out in Australia or the USA, then fine, because the Western society can probably accommodate it better.

But the basic issue with most Western Buddhists is they have not spent extensive time living in monasteries. When they hear or see a monk, like Bhikkhu Bodhi or Thanissaro, they automatically regard these monks as enlightened.

If one lives in monastaries and has some dhamma vision, one sees many monks and nuns are just like us, namely, ordinary people struggling with their minds and unenlightened.

In a monastery, there are monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen. Some of the monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen gain some enlightenment and some of the monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen do not.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. First of all, you simply don't know how most Western Buddhists regard monks but that's irrelevant to this thread anyway. So is the fact that monks and nuns are just like us and struggle just like us. The point is, women have the unalienable right to struggle with their minds as nuns just as much as men do as monks.

If you're trying to say that most Western Buddhists who have not spent much time in monasteries have idealized views of monastics, so what? What has that got to do with the issue of women being denied the right to ordain? Are you saying that if we ignorant Westerners knew how unenlightened and like us most monastics are we wouldn't care about the issue as much as we do? I hope not because that would be an arrogant way to view others who don't know as much as you think you do.

But in any case, it's completely irrelevant to the issue.

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

I have personally seen nuns attached to monks like a wife is attached to husband.

Gee, that's a nice anecdotal note. What are you thinking? Why on earth would you add this to your argument? I don't care if you've personally witnessed nuns begging to lick the ground at the feet of monks. As I see it, it's only relevance is to illustrate the issues you have with women in general.

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

Bhikkunis in the West are fine because Western people are hyper-sensitive to superficial notions of "injustice", "sexism", etc. This is just worldly distraction. Religious people generally enjoy distraction.

We must live in the world and so must monastics. The mere fact that you view fundamental human rights, justice, and the universal, monumental amount of suffering caused by sexism since time immemorial as superficial notions and just worldly distractions is pretty appalling. (I imagine you meant to say that religious people generally don't enjoy distraction.)

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

Having bhikkunis teaching you Dhamma will still not help your mind get enlightened. Many monks & nuns are caught up in worldliness in monastaries, being the teacher, etc. Their distractions are many.

Oh, come on. Monastic teachers don't help us along the Path? Please. That's just plain insulting. Insulting to our intelligence and insulting to monastic teachers.

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

.
In the end, it all does not make much difference.
:smilec:

Uh, huh. Not to you it doesn't. Clearly.

You know, DD, I haven't responded to your other thinly veiled sexist remarks on this board before because I was hoping it was just a surface issue with you and I didn't want to get into a discussion about sexism. But your remarks on this thread have forced the issue and this time they're not going to go unprotested.

You've stated twice that the issue of female ordination is 'not important' and 'does not make much difference'. To back up your argument you've tried to trivialize not only the monastic life but the worth of the monastic teacher. These things may be inconsequential to you but they are not so to others. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a Buddhist monk anywhere who would agree with your assessment of how they've chosen to live their life or their teaching.

You've also used your impression of Thai society and your interpretation of enlightened Thai masters to illustrate why you think female ordination is not important in Thailand.

Okay. Fine. Maybe you're right. We all know how the monastic Thai patriarchy responded to the recent female ordinations in Australia. I've been following that particular issue very closely and I've read responses to it from around the world. I've also discussed the issue with many people. I have yet to come across anyone who agrees with the attitude of the monastic Thai patriarchy. Not one. So using Thai attitudes to bolster your argument is worse than useless. It devalues it.

There's a lot more I could say about your remarks on this thread but I've spent enough time on it already. I just wanted you to know how deeply disappointed I am.

Aldrisang wrote: »

The reasoning behind some of the extra vinaya rules and the subservient role to bhikkhus was not of discrimination or unworthiness. It had to deal with the way women were viewed in India at the time, and if these concessions were not made, the bhikkuni order would not have been possible or at the very least would have been fraught with such societal ill-will that not many would have chosen it.

At least, that's my understanding from several sources I turned to for my own education in the Dhamma.

You haven't proven your original statement that the 'reasoning behind some of the extra vinaya rules and the subservient role to bhikkhus was not of discrimination or unworthiness.' In fact, the way you chose to prove your statement actually disproves it.

Brigid · January 2010

Brother Bob wrote: »

'...Chinese lineage of Buddhism in 1981 in Hong Kong.' http://www.gampoabbey.org/ane_pema/index.html

:):)

P.S. Same route as Ven. Thubten Chodron (Hum?) although Ven Thubten Chodron is now ordaining other women, in the USA.

Palzang wrote: »

Boo, Pema Chodron received her novice ordination from Karmapa XVI and then bhikshuni (gelongma) in the Chinese lineage in Hong Kong, which is also what Ven. Thubten Chodron did.

Palzang

Thanks, guys!

Stephen · January 2010

I was merely relating the part of the story of the creation of the bhikkhuni order as I have read it. I was not expressing an opinion or view on the matter. If I were, I would say that whatever the reasons for its creation as being subservient to the bhikkhus, those reasons would no longer be valid. Any bhikkhuni order that exists or would exist today _should_ be completely free of any male domination. If the Buddha lived today as opposed to 2500 or so years ago in India, full equality is the way he'd do it.

Citta · January 2010

For anyone interested in the revival of the Bhikkhuni tradition in the Theravada there is a lively discussion about some of the issues over several threads on Dhamma Wheel.

Palzang · January 2010

Go, Boo! :cheer:

Palzang

Dazzle · January 2010

.

Regarding Tibetan Buddhist nuns, there are quite a number of fully ordained Kagyu nuns at the Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery in the UK. As far as I remember they went to Sri Lanka and also to a ceremony in India with the abbot in order to take their Bhikkhuni or Gelongma vows.

.

NamelessRiver · January 2010

Regarding Tibetan Buddhist nuns, there are quite a number of fully ordained Kagyu nuns at the Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery in the UK. As far as I remember they went to Sri Lanka and also to a ceremony in India with the abbot in order to take their Bhikkhuni or Gelongma vows.

These people have to go all around the world to get ordained? That sucks $:\$ Can't they ordain people directly in the UK? If not, why?

Brigid · February 2010

Aldrisang wrote: »

I was merely relating the part of the story of the creation of the bhikkhuni order as I have read it. I was not expressing an opinion or view on the matter. If I were, I would say that whatever the reasons for its creation as being subservient to the bhikkhus, those reasons would no longer be valid. Any bhikkhuni order that exists or would exist today _should_ be completely free of any male domination. If the Buddha lived today as opposed to 2500 or so years ago in India, full equality is the way he'd do it.

Sorry about that, Aldrising. I got too prickly there, didn't I? Overdid it. If you can, please just ignore what I said, K?

:buck:

Deshy · February 2010

Three cheers to Boo

I have been missing in the forums for some time and just returned to see your replies. I was actually disappointed earlier why at least the few women here didn't retaliate to some of the obviously sexist comments.

NamelessRiver wrote: »

These people have to go all around the world to get ordained? That sucks $:\$ Can't they ordain people directly in the UK? If not, why?

Which is exactly my point. There are so many countries (including my own) where the majority are Buddhists and there is so much support to buddhist monks but when it comes to female ordination they just turn a blind eye and dismiss it as "not important" or ask the women to fly to China if they want to take the robes.

All of these things boil down to the fact that there is still a very irrational resistence in most societies to Bhikkuni ordination. It doesn't make any sense to deny 50% of the population the right to ordain as a monk. I don't think in this modern day and age there is any solid justification as to why women are not supported enough in this regard.

Deshy · February 2010

Dazzle wrote: »

.

Regarding Tibetan Buddhist nuns, there are quite a number of fully ordained Kagyu nuns at the Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery in the UK. As far as I remember they went to Sri Lanka and also to a ceremony in India with the abbot in order to take their Bhikkhuni or Gelongma vows.

There is no Bhikkuni sangha in India and Sri Lanka. Only nuns and most of them do not even get enough arms food in their monasteries

Dazzle · February 2010

Hi Deshy,

Here are some references which mention ordination taken in Sri Lanka and India.

"In recent years, some women who hold eight- or ten-precept in countries where the bhikshuni sangha does not currently exist wish to receive that ordination. In 1996, ten Sri Lankan women received the bhikshuni ordination from a Korean sangha in India, and in 1998, over twenty Sri Lankan nuns received it in Bodhgaya, India, from Dharmaguptaka bhikshunis and Theravadin and Dharmaguptaka bhikshus. The bhikshuni ordination has subsequently been given several times in Sri Lanka, and while initially some Sri Lankan monks opposed this, some prominent monks supported it. Nowadays Theravadin bhikshunis, who number over 400, are accepted by Sri Lankan society.
Since the early 1980s, over fifty Western women and a handful of Himalayan women who practice in the Tibetan tradition have gone to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, or in more recent years to the USA, France, or India to receive the bhikshuni ordination. A few Western women who practice in the Theravadin tradition and a handful of Thai women have received bhikkhuni ordination in Sri Lanka."

http://www.thubtenchodron.org/BuddhistNunsMonasticLife/a_new_possibility.html

AND

"In 1998 Lama Zangmo was one of a group of nuns who accompanied Lama Yeshe Losal to India, where she became fully ordained as a Gelongma (Bhikkuni) at a historic ceremony in Bodhgaya. This will in turn enable others to take full Gelongma ordination with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition in the future."

http://www.london.samye.org/london/kagyu/teachers/lama_zangmo.shtml

Kind wishes,

Dazzle

Deshy · February 2010

Dazzle wrote: »

Hi Deshy,

Here are some references which mention ordination taken in Sri Lanka and India.

I am sorry Dazzel I actually don't have much time to go through that. My job is killing me

But I have been staying in Sri Lanka for some time now so I know there are no ordinated female monks here. Only nuns and they do not get much support either

upekka · February 2010

Deshy wrote: »

I am sorry Dazzel I actually don't have much time to go through that. My job is killing me

But I have been staying in Sri Lanka for some time now so I know there are no ordinated female monks here. Only nuns and they do not get much support either

Contact Bikkuni Kusuma at:
sadaham sevana
gothami uyana
obesekarapura
rajagiriya
0112 882 198

you will be able to know about Bikkuni sangha in sri lanka

Brigid · February 2010

Deshy wrote: »

I am sorry Dazzel I actually don't have much time to go through that. My job is killing me

But I have been staying in Sri Lanka for some time now so I know there are no ordinated female monks here. Only nuns and they do not get much support either

Hi, Deshy.

I'm not entirely sure I'm correct but I thought men who ordain are called 'monks' (bhikkhu) and females who ordain are called 'nuns' (bhikkhuni). I've never heard of female monks before. Am I missing something?

Palzang · February 2010

In some cultures and forms of Buddhism ordained females are referred to as monks also, Boo. In Zen, for instance. I'm not sure, however, what Deshy means that instead of monks they're nuns! Both monks and nuns take vows.

Palzang

Brigid · February 2010

That's pretty cool! I've never thought of women being monks and now I can.

Deshy · February 2010

upekka wrote: »

Contact Bikkuni Kusuma at:
sadaham sevana
gothami uyana
obesekarapura
rajagiriya
0112 882 198

you will be able to know about Bikkuni sangha in sri lanka

Upekka, there are no ordained Bhikkunis in SL. There were long time back but no more. We have only nuns who attend to 10 sils (dasa sil). Just because they wear the robes doesn't mean they are ordained.

An ordained Bhikku/Bhikkuni attends to 200+ sils plus regarded as above the nuns who are not ordained in so many ways. However this is not a major obstacle to practice the Dhamma but because females can only be nuns who are not fully ordained they do not get enough acceptance and support from the society as the monks do which is the problem.

Deshy · February 2010

Taken from WIKI:

Fully ordained Buddhist nuns (bhikkhunis) have more Patimokkha-rules than the monks (bhikkhus). The important vows are the same, however.

As with monks, there are quite a lot of variation in nuns' dress and social conventions between different Buddhist cultures in Asia. Chinese nuns possess the full bhikkuni ordination; Tibetan nuns do not; and in Theravada countries women renunciates are discouraged from even wearing saffron robes. Disparities may often be observed in the amount of respect and financial resources given to monks viz. nuns, with nuns receiving less of both in all countries with the possible exception of Taiwan. Despite barriers, some nuns succeed in becoming religious teachers and authorities.

Deshy · February 2010

All in all, with Buddhism being a religion which supports equality and freedom for all beings and with the Buddha playing a key role in addressing some of the cast differences, discrimination and oppression in the ancient society, it is embarrassing to see so much disparity in bhikkus and bhikkunis in the modern Buddhist circles. I think most of this has been added to the religion later and hope they will change soon. Because we really cannot say we support equality with a clause like this in the Vinaya:

"A nun, even if she has been ordained for 100 years, must respect, greet and bow in reverence to the feet of a monk, even if he has just been ordained that day. (Monks pay respect to each other according to their seniority, or the number of years they have been ordained.)"

Dazzle · February 2010

Deshy wrote: »

Taken from WIKI:

Chinese nuns possess the full bhikkuni ordination; Tibetan nuns do not;

Hi Deshy,

You will see from my previous post that this has now changed in the case of Tibetan Buddhist nuns - although they have had to sometimes travel long distances in order to get full ordination . (See my link # 31 mentioning Lama Zangmo)

Kind wishes,

Dazzle

Deshy · February 2010

Dazzle wrote: »

Hi Deshy,

You will see from my previous post that this has now changed in the case of Tibetan Buddhist nuns - although they have had to sometimes travel long distances in order to get full ordination . (See my link # 31 mentioning Lama Zangmo)

Kind wishes,

Dazzle

Thanks Dazzel. Yep we can always say that even Asian women can travel to China (or some other country) and get ordained but the point here is that many cultures do not have the necessary support as there should be. But I guess there is little point in emphasizing that here in an Internet forum anyway.

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