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Would a Buddha ever lie ...

DeshyDeshy Veteran
edited February 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Would a Buddha ever lie with all the good intentions in the world?

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    No.
    He would answer skilfully, or remain silent. But he would never deliberately lie.
    His speech would be Right, and really, how the person would take it, would be their problem.
    but there wouldn't be anything wrong with the Buddha's input or engagement in the matter.
    Besides - why would he violate his own precept?

    my opinion.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited February 2010
    federica wrote: »
    No.
    He would answer skilfully, or remain silent. But he would never deliberately lie.
    His speech would be Right, and really, how the person would take it, would be their problem.
    but there wouldn't be anything wrong with the Buddha's input or engagement in the matter.
    Besides - why would he violate his own precept?

    my opinion.

    I agree :)
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited February 2010
    This is said to be in the Diamond Sutra. I think we should look at this figuratively rather than literally... any comments?

    Once while the Buddha was meditating in the woods, it happened that a rabbit was shot by a hunter. The rabbit ran to the Buddha and hid under his robe. The hunter who was chasing the rabbit stopped to ask the Buddha, "Did you see my rabbit?"

    Of course, the Buddha saw the rabbit, but he could not tell the hunter where the rabbit was. So, the Buddha replied, "No, I haven't seen the rabbit."

    Is this a lie?

    "You have hid my rabbit, my dinner for the night. Can you please return it to me?"

    "Oh, it was for your dinner tonight!" The Buddha then pulled the knife he had with him, and he asked the hunter, "If I cut off my arm, is it enough to compensate you for the rabbit? Let me give you my arm for your dinner!"

    In order to save sentient beings, the Buddha told a fib out of great, fearless compassion. This is not an everyday lie. This is in accordance with what is said in the Diamond Sutra, "The Tathagata is one who speaks of things as they are, as what is true, and as in accordance with reality."
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited February 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    Would a Buddha ever lie with all the good intentions in the world?

    I don't know, but I think it's interesting that throughout the 550 birth stories contained in the Jakata, the precept against lying is the only precept the Buddha doesn't break.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    Jason, could you reference where he breaks the (other four) precepts we're mindful of vowing to refrain from breaking..?

    Harming.
    Stealing.
    Sexual Misconduct
    Harmful substances...

    Interesting.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    sukhita wrote: »
    This is said to be in the Diamond Sutra. I think we should look at this figuratively rather than literally... any comments?Once while the Buddha was meditating in the woods, it happened that a rabbit was shot by a hunter. The rabbit ran to the Buddha and hid under his robe. The hunter who was chasing the rabbit stopped to ask the Buddha, "Did you see my rabbit?"

    Of course, the Buddha saw the rabbit, but he could not tell the hunter where the rabbit was. So, the Buddha replied, "No, I haven't seen the rabbit."

    Is this a lie?

    "You have hid my rabbit, my dinner for the night. Can you please return it to me?"

    "Oh, it was for your dinner tonight!" The Buddha then pulled the knife he had with him, and he asked the hunter, "If I cut off my arm, is it enough to compensate you for the rabbit? Let me give you my arm for your dinner!"

    In order to save sentient beings, the Buddha told a fib out of great, fearless compassion. This is not an everyday lie. This is in accordance with what is said in the Diamond Sutra, "The Tathagata is one who speaks of things as they are, as what is true, and as in accordance with reality."

    Now, see...
    had I been the Buddha, I would have said:
    "Hunter, yes, I saw the rabbit. it was running, and it hid. Obviously it hid out of fear. But don't ask me where it went, because I can't see it now"

    All of which is true, and not a lie.
    It prevents the rabbit from coming to harm.
    it prevents the hunter from taking a life.

    See....? Stories can always be improved upon.....:lol:
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    sukhita wrote: »
    This is said to be in the Diamond Sutra.
    Where in the Diamond Sutra?
  • robbyrobby
    edited February 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    Would a Buddha ever lie with all the good intentions in the world?

    I think that adhisila; the 'higher' Ethic might sometimes call for telling a fib. The purpose of vinaya is to create merit; to do wholesome karma. The Buddha said that karma is cetana; a word that implies both intention or motive and volition. The wholesomeness of a thought. word, or deed is determined by the underlying cetana.

    This is not to say that so called good intentions always create merit. Intention is not a fully adequate translation of cetana. For example, karma motivated by confusion {moha} or ignorance {ajnana} is unwholesome; even though we generally do not intend to be confused or ignorant.

    Also, in general, most of us would agree that a charitable deed {dana} is wholesome karma. However, this is only true if the deed is motivated by wholesome cetanas such as generosity or compassion. If the motive is pride, a desire to be viewed favorably by others; or avarice, the desire to get a tax deduction; then it is not really wholesome karma.

    In the story of the rabbit, the Buddha's intention was to protect the rabbit. Let's suppose the Buddha's motive had been to keep the rabbit for his own dinner? Then, I think, the lie would have been unwholesome karma.

    Also, consider the hunter's deed, shooting the rabbit. His intention was probably not to harm the rabbit; he was acquiring a meal. At worst, I think a devoted vegitarian could claim the hunter was acting out ignorance, or perhaps a greedy appetite.

    I am not letting the Buddha {in this story} completely off the hook either. His action possibly deprived the hunter of a meal. Offering the hunter his arm as as meal was not really a solution. I thought that part of the story was weak. Chances are, the hunter would decline, and find another rabbit to shoot, or perhaps, go hungry.

    Another issue: was the hunter poaching, or was he acting on a legal right? If the former, maybe the Buddha should have reported the poacher to the authorities? If the latter, the Buddha violated the vinaya by committing theft.

    Life frequently presents us with moral & ethical dilemmas; even tri-lemmas or worse. I think the best we can do is try to cultivate and maintain wholesome cetanas; while restraining and letting go of unwholesome cetanas. Some are obvious. Greed, hatred, pride, and envy are unwholesome cetanas. Kindness, compassion, generosity, and patience are wholesome. Of course, restraining the unwholesome and developing the wholesome is easier said than done. Even harder is cultivating the discerning wisdom to choose between unacceptable alternatives.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Thats not in the diamond sutra but it is a story I have heard.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited February 2010
    LOL The Buddha says all sorts of different things on the internet. Is The Diamond Sutra the same as Diamond Cutter Sutra? I saw no rabbit in this one.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited February 2010
    No.
    He would answer skilfully, or remain silent.

    128834561094967735.jpg

    Ok, Federica- go!
  • epicurioepicurio
    edited February 2010
    The burning house parable is a good illustration of what robby is talking about. A man's children are playing with toys inside of a burning house. The man urges the children to come out, but they aren't aware of the imminent danger, so they remain in the house. Next the man tells them that there are wonderful toys for them to play with outside, and this gets them to come out of the house. But of course the toys don't really exist, he said that just to get them to come out of the house (to be fair he does later provide them with carts beyond what he had promised).

    Now the question: has the man told a falsehood? Certainly in the conventional manner of speaking it is, but in the ultimate manner it is not:
    Now, Sariputra, what is thy opinion? Has that man made himself guilty of a falsehood by first holding out to his children the prospect of three vehicles and afterwards going to each of them the greatest vehicles only, the most magnificent vehicle? Sariputra answered: By no means, Lord. That is not sufficient to qualify the man as a speaker of falsehood, since it only was a skilful device to persuade his children to go out of the burning house and save their lives. Nay, besides recovering their very bodies, O Lord, they have received all those toys. If that man, O Lord, had given no single cart, even then he would not have been a speaker of falsehood, for he had previously been meditating on saving the little boys from a great mass of pain by some able device.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited February 2010
    NamelessRiver wrote: »
    Is The Diamond Sutra the same as Diamond Cutter Sutra?

    Yes. Its also called the Prajnaparamita Diamond Sutra and additionally The Diamond That Cuts Through Illusion



    .
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited February 2010
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Thats not in the diamond sutra but it is a story I have heard.

    Yes... I too have heard this "story" before but I don't know for sure where it comes from. You will observe that the Diamond Sutra is mentioned in the quote itself. But I was cautious of the validity of the source (I haven't read the Diamond Sutra) and hence stated thus "This is said to be in the Diamond Sutra."

    Thanks for pointing out this "misquote"... but that still leaves us wondering where it comes from? And, someone is going to use this "story" again... :)
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Sure he would.

    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: "NO"
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    Sure he would.

    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: "NO"
    seconded.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o wrote: »
    128834561094967735.jpg

    Ok, Federica- go!



    No...your fat makes you look fat.
    The dress is incidental.....
    But it would make a cute car-cover....
    More doughnuts, dearie....?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    Sure he would.

    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: "NO"

    :rolleyes:
    I knew it.
    Godwin's Law strikes again......
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited February 2010
    Lady in Pink: "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?"
    The Buddha: "Stop blaming the dress, dear. See reality as it is!"
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    federica wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    I knew it.
    Godwin's Law strikes again......


    Reductio ad Hitlerum :vimp:

    Hey I come by this honestly , being somewhat jewy :D

    Ok How bout this.....


    Fanatical Israeli settler with bulldozer : "Is that a palestinian olive grove?"

    Buddha "NO"
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited February 2010
    From one point of view, everything the Buddha said was a lie.
  • Quiet_witnessQuiet_witness Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Out of curiousty what point of view is that Jinzang?:scratch:
  • robbyrobby
    edited February 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    Sure he would.

    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: "NO"

    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: What you seek is hidden within you.

    Something like that. I am thinking of his conversation with Angulimala.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    robby wrote: »
    SS Officer : "Are there Jews hiding in this village?"

    Buddha: What you seek is hidden within you.

    Something like that. I am thinking of his conversation with Angulimala.

    Yeah I can just see that one..... " Herr Stangl, das Juden is within you". :lol:

    Truth is, Godwin's law aside, such situations commonly arose...

    To remain silent is tantamount to saying yes, but to say something hilariously Buddhist in that context might make the SS think he's off his rocker, so it just might work.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    take example on the parable of the mustard seed, the woman that beg the buddha to return the life of her young child. The Buddha asked her to get some mustard seeds from the household that no son, husband, parent or slave has died.
    The woman search lead her to enlighten to the impermance of things
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    ansanna wrote: »
    take example on the parable of the mustard seed, the woman that beg the buddha to return the life of her young child. The Buddha asked her to get some mustard seeds from the household that no son, husband, parent or slave has died.
    The woman search lead her to enlighten to the impermance of things
    A lie may be an immoral act. A lie may be a moral act.
    Morality is adaptive and situational, not a fixed form. If you want to quote me a Sutra that says under absolutely no circumstances lie? Go ahead. I like the sound of Sutras.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    RH, no the Mahayana sutras state that the Buddha's word is always truthful and not false, all the Buddhas of the ten directions put on their sealed this statement by spreading their tougues to cover the entire universe - a metaphor to state that the Buddha's words are universal valid across time and space.

    There is only skillfulness in the approach that the Buddha employed , and skilfullness is one of the paramis of the 6 or 10 paramitas that any Bodhisattva required to perfect
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I think a more pertinent point to obtaining enlightenment is whether Buddha, when sharing an appetizer of onion rings with someone...

    Would he ever dip the onion ring in ranch dressing take a bite and then DOUBLE DIP into the ranch dressing again? Or would he simply spoon some onto his bitten onion ring? I think we need this question addressed. :p
  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited February 2010
    deception for deception's sake is the way of an anti-buddha. ha ha ha! deception for deliverance's sake, though, is the way of all the buddhas. all the buddhas! he he he. at least, that's what i, no more than a mere brute, would say. i don't know how often a buddha would even be put into such a situation where they might have to subvert the "truth", you know because what is a lie that leads to truth is it still a lie or truth inverted? does not the moon reflect the sun at night? ha ha ha!!!!!
    I think a more pertinent point to obtaining enlightenment is whether Buddha, when sharing an appetizer of onion rings with someone...

    Would he ever dip the onion ring in ranch dressing take a bite and then DOUBLE DIP into the ranch dressing again? Or would he simply spoon some onto his bitten onion ring? I think we need this question addressed. :p
    ha ha ha
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Would he ever dip the onion ring in ranch dressing take a bite and then DOUBLE DIP into the ranch dressing again?

    I'm sorry but this is simply shocking. A Buddha would NEVER double dip. Never EVER double dip. ...this too heavy. I'm gettin outta the kitchen.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    if you want the Buddha would ask you if you want the hear from the perspective of relative truth, absolute truth or ulitmate truth ?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    ansanna wrote: »
    if you want the Buddha would ask you if you want the hear from the perspective of relative truth, absolute truth or ulitmate truth ?
    Are saying the Buddha might double dip?

    But seriously, All truth in one action. This is what I have been taught, this is the practice. The Vajrayana approach to this matter may be very different and I respect that.



    .... mu?
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    RH, We cannot make too assumption on how the Buddha will teach at that particular situation , because the Buddha don't just teach for the sake of teaching , he first observe the karmic capacity of the person seeking for the question , on his level of faculty capacity , what type of philosophical background supporting his mindset , what benefit the teaching will lead the person to , is it the appropiate time to impart this part of the wisdom etc

    So when we read the buddha teaching, we should always remember the condition of why he preached that particular way/level , who is seeking the questions , what backgound of training the person have already received etc
    then we can fully understand the content of the teaching , that what the ancient Buddhist masters did when they read the canon

    without doing all this study , we might not know what we are talking about
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited February 2010
    federica wrote: »
    Jason, could you reference where he breaks the (other four) precepts we're mindful of vowing to refrain from breaking..?

    Harming.
    Stealing.
    Sexual Misconduct
    Harmful substances...

    Interesting.

    Sorry, Fede, I don't have any at the moment. I'll try to find some when I have the time, but I'll probably forget.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    RH: The Vajrayana approach to this matter may be very different and I respect that.
    In Vajrayana approach is first put the whole trust to your lineage teacher , and respect him just like the Buddha is present in front of you , this is a good way to remove hinder ...

    in this tradition, if you do not trust your teacher , well it is relatively hard to invent your own wheel .. but do you do doctrinal debate with your teachers ?
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Take the example when Shariputra is teaching on behalf of the buddha to a blacksmith and a washerman , he taught the blacksmith on observing the cleanse of karmic cause and he taught the washerman on observing the breathing , both are unable to obtain any fruit on the practice and almost discard the buddhist pracitce , so the Buddha came to the rescue, the Buddha observed the backgound of this two new disciples and switch the techique of practice among them, the blacksmith could appreicate with the practice of observing the breathing and the washerman could grasp the practice of cleanse in the mind. both eventually obtained the fruit of their practice .

    So to have the wisdom to skillfully apply the correct teaching is very important
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    many people has quoted the approach on the Kalamas sutta, but do we know that the approach here is targetting to a group of non-buddhist background sceptical new believers known as the kalamas ?
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited February 2010
    ansanna wrote: »
    take example on the parable of the mustard seed, the woman that beg the Buddha to return the life of her young child. The Buddha asked her to get some mustard seeds from the household that no son, husband, parent or slave has died.
    The woman search lead her to enlighten to the importance of things

    Your point is? I don't see the Buddha lied here. Instead of telling the women that it is futile to ask the Buddha to give her lost child's life back, he used a skillful means to make the woman understand that there is no household in the entire city where no one has ever died. By the time the woman returned to the Buddha she had understood that reality and was in a position mentally to sit down and listen to his Dhamma.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I don't think the Buddha would lie in a situation that he could skillfully answer rather than lying directly or in a situation where he could remain silent. Having said that, I recently listened to a Dhamma talk by venerable Ajhan Brahm and he said if you lie while acting out of compassion and not out of "self interests, ill-will, delusion or fear" then it is fine. For example in a situation like this:

    Your husband died while undergoing an operation from an illness long ago. One day you had to go to the hospital for an operation and the woman in the bed next to you is having the same sickness your husband had and she was supposed to undergo the same operation. In your stupidity you went on about the sickness and the treatment your husband had for the sickness and all that while talking with the woman and suddenly the woman asks "Did your husband recover the operation". In her compassion for the other being, not wanting to make her feel worse than she already is the woman lied saying "no". I think it’s better to say no out of compassion rather than saying yes to save your discipline in this particular case.
  • BrotherBobBrotherBob
    edited February 2010
    So I heard that when ole bubba buddha was down on skid row with a bunch of winos he said, "don't believe a damn word I say, check it out fo' youself!" "An' when the popo ask if you seen me, tellum, WHO?"

    :):):)
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Deshy, Your point is?
    Yes , I only point to the fact the Buddha used his wisdom & compassion to employ skilfull means ( upaya ) and successfully lead the suffering woman to the stage of realisation

    The Buddha's golden words are always truthful and no false, it is always the unpure minds of the listener to miss the point on his teaching : )

    Hence, from the Mahayana stand point, all words in the Mahayana canon are the golden words of the Buddha , his teaching is appropiate to the capacity level and karmic condition of the listeners at that time.

    And how to apply & relate on the buddha teaching to our modern age is base on the wisdom and capacity of the modern Buddhist teachers
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    I think a more pertinent point to obtaining enlightenment is whether Buddha, when sharing an appetizer of onion rings with someone...

    Would he ever dip the onion ring in ranch dressing take a bite and then DOUBLE DIP into the ranch dressing again? Or would he simply spoon some onto his bitten onion ring? I think we need this question addressed. :p

    :lol::D
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    Would a Buddha ever lie with all the good intentions in the world?

    What jinzang said, but also on the other hand, we may still thank him. _/\_
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