Is there a place for astrology in Buddhism?

lillymac61

Does the use of astrology to predict events and assign human characteristcs run counter to Buddhist teachings on acceptance and nature of mind? Once I was very into astrology, but now I'm thinking it's a bit of an out, wanting to know what the future holds and slotting people into pigeon holes.

Jeffrey

I think it depends how it is done. I studied in an aol chat with a leader, great guy, who also studied astrology. I guess it depends how your astrology hobby is affecting you. I think monks aren't allowed to charge money for astrology, but I don't see why not for a lay person.

BhanteLucky

the Buddha forbids fortune telling by monks, but some do it publicly anyway, especially in Thailand and Burma.
I don't know about the guidelines for laypeople though.

karasti

I think it's questionable but it's an interesting topic. I enjoy studying it and find connections here and there, and my natal chart is basically right on, but I think with any of those things there is a danger in giving up some of your ability to think and choose and feeling too predestined towards any one thing. In a very general way, it's interesting. As a daily habit to the point some people take it, I think it can be harmful to them as far as their Buddhist practice goes. I mean I've known people who have a terrific deal come their way who flat out refuse to even think about it because Mercury is retrograde. Give me a break. Perhaps if you wish, use more caution, ask more questions, but to turn down something terrific because of a warning from the planet I think goes too far.

vinlyn

To me it's like meeting with a seer, which I have done on a few occasions. It's okay in both cases, as long as you can put it in perspective.

lobster

Why use something that does not work except in the imagination. Just like the 'science' of augury, which is now discredited, astrology will find its rightful place - the bin of false or irrelevant teachings. Now let us watch the defenders of astrology as predictable as ever, defend their 'science'.

vinlyn

I tend to agree with you, Lobster, but I also keep in mind that fundamentalist Christians would say the same thing about Buddhism.

lobster

What fundamental Christians say is as much use as astrology and creationism. Bunkum is bunkum (thus have I heard). :screwy:

vinlyn

May I quote you in the future?

hermitwin

no. buddha forbade his monks from these activities.

lillymac61 said:

Does the use of astrology to predict events and assign human characteristcs run counter to Buddhist teachings on acceptance and nature of mind? Once I was very into astrology, but now I'm thinking it's a bit of an out, wanting to know what the future holds and slotting people into pigeon holes.

lillymac61

Jeffrey said:

I think monks aren't allowed to charge money for astrology, but I don't see why not for a lay person.

@Jeffrey, so the fact that monks can't charge for charts or readings suggests there's some astrological activity in place. I've just done some quick research and it appears the version practiced by TB monks is a cross between Chinese and Vedic, and that the system differs drastically to the Linda Goodman/daily newspaper variety in method and purpose. Interesting...

Jeffrey

I don't know lilly if there is a history with the monks.

I think astrology is a vehicle for the intuition. I did get a natal chart (is that what it's called?) and it was way off. It said my parents abused me pretty much and my parents are practically super-heroes aside from getting divorced.

vinlyn

There's actually quite a history of Buddhism and astrology, apparently particularly with Tibetan Buddhism. This is interesting: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhante_Dhammananda_Buddhism_and_Astrology.pdf

Jason

lillymac61 said:

Does the use of astrology to predict events and assign human characteristcs run counter to Buddhist teachings on acceptance and nature of mind? Once I was very into astrology, but now I'm thinking it's a bit of an out, wanting to know what the future holds and slotting people into pigeon holes.

Yes and no. While the Buddha considered things like astrology a wrong means of livelihood for his monks and nuns, and seemed to have a low opinion of such things in general (e.g., see DN 1 and DN 11), he never explicitly states that lay-followers should refrain from such activities, nor is it included in the list of five types of business lay-follower shouldn't engage in (AN 5.177). That doesn't mean one should, of course; but it's probably not a huge issue as long as one doesn't pursue such things with an eye towards "scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, & pursuing gain with gain" (MN 117).

It should also be noted that, despite the fact that the Buddha discouraged his monastics from 'making a living' utilizing superstitions that were popular at the time and pawning off snake-oil cures instead of practicing and teaching Dhamma, the use of things like astrology and numerology is quite popular in many Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, Tibet, Thailand, etc., even among monastics (e.g., see Buddhism and Astrology by Ven. Dr K Sri Dhammananda). I know that in Thailand, for example, many monks often use birthdays to help determine the best ordination dates.

lillymac61

vinlyn said:

There's actually quite a history of Buddhism and astrology, apparently particularly with Tibetan Buddhism. This is interesting: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhante_Dhammananda_Buddhism_and_Astrology.pdf

@vinlyn, thanks, I'll check it out

lillymac61

lobster said:

Why use something that does not work except in the imagination. Just like the 'science' of augury, which is now discredited, astrology will find its rightful place - the bin of false or irrelevant teachings. Now let us watch the defenders of astrology as predictable as ever, defend their 'science'.

@lobster, I used to be into tarot, runes, you name it, anything that might assuage anxiety over a particular situation. Then I realised I was giving all my power away to these practices, a kind of fatalism. It was a way avoiding making decisions and doing things that would have some kind of outcome on the situation, for feat that it would be negative. I've always been a bit black and white (Virgo trait ;-) so I've done an about turn. I like Buddhism because it teaches that with my actions I can purify Karma and create auspicious conditions today. I've heard it described as "endevour-ism".

lillymac61

vinlyn said:

May I quote you in the future?

@vinlyn, ????? who do you want to quote

vinlyn

@Lillymac61: Lobster when he said, "Bunkum is bunkum".

Jason

lillymac61 said:

@lobster, I used to be into tarot, runes, you name it, anything that might assuage anxiety over a particular situation. Then I realised I was giving all my power away to these practices, a kind of fatalism. It was a way avoiding making decisions and doing things that would have some kind of outcome on the situation, for feat that it would be negative. I've always been a bit black and white (Virgo trait ;-) so I've done an about turn. I like Buddhism because it teaches that with my actions I can purify Karma and create auspicious conditions today. I've heard it described as "endevour-ism".

I can relate. I used to be into things like tarot cards, as well, and found myself in much the same boat, becoming unsure and indecisive due to worry about some possible future event the cards seemed to reveal (I'm also a Virgo :eek: ). After getting into Buddhism in my mid-twenties, though, I dropped most of that stuff and found it rather freeing. Every now and then, I'll do one just for fun, but that's about it.

Dakini

lillymac61 said:

Does the use of astrology to predict events and assign human characteristcs run counter to Buddhist teachings on acceptance and nature of mind? Once I was very into astrology, but now I'm thinking it's a bit of an out, wanting to know what the future holds and slotting people into pigeon holes.

No. Tibetan monks learn astrology as part of medical training, if they want to practice medicine. They don't predict the future (I've never known an astrologer who did, Western or Eastern), but they can tell people what is an "auspicious day" for undertaking an activity.

lobster

You will find a deep symbology in Tarot. For example the major arcana is a representation of a path of development. In a similar way astrology can be used to analyse and express the condition and means to development. This process is largely occult and these systems are used as bone throwing to predict the future. Insert quote [bunkum=inability to think for ourselves] :scratch:

RebeccaS

I don't know... I reckon there is something to all that star sign stuff.

I'm very much a Libra, you know? It seems a little too accurate to be completely coincidental.

So if it is true, I reckon there is a place for it, because Buddhism is all about the truth. Probably not within Buddhism though, I just mean you could probably be into both and they wouldn't contradict each other.

karasti

@Jeffrey as far as a birth/natal chart, it's accuracy depends very much on how accurate the information is that you put in, and where you get it. If you go to a free internet site and enter the information it's going to be less accurate than if you have someone do it for you with all the information. The exact time and coordinates of birth, for example, have to be in there. Some websites will tell you that if you don't know your exact time you can estimate or whatever, but that isn't really true. Anyhow, I had mine done by a person and all 18 pages or so of it are pretty much 100% accurate. However, I'm interested to know how it exactly works, how certain positions of the planet control your personality traits. If you have a major interruption in your life, is it still accurate? I really don't know. And I'm sure for people it isn't accurate, but it's fascinating to me how accurate it is for me. Not so much so that I live my life by my natal chart or my astrology sign or anything, lol. But I'm as Sagittarius as it gets.

lobster

Why is astrology not used to predict the weather?
Why is astrology not used by the CIA to predict terror attacks?
Why is astrology not used to make gambling redundant?
:banghead:
Answers on your brain (as it is not being used) to the usual star sign . . .

MaryAnne

for a free birth chart delivered to your email address, click:

http://alabe.com/freechart/

This program has been around for a very long time. It is extremely accurate and used by all sorts of astrology hobbyists and pros. There are no worries about being swamped with spam or ads, either. You'll get your birth chart- and nothing else.

I guarantee you, if you seek out an individual real life person to do your birth chart, 99 times out of 100 they are using this program or one very similar to work up your chart, because 'no one' uses old (paper) charts and huge, heavy books any longer.

Try it. I have for myself and my kids and husband over the years. Dead on, every time.

hermitwin

on the one hand, people dont believe rebirth bcos lack of evidence.
the same people believe that there are 12 types of people in this world?
i have 2 friends born on the same day, a few minutes apart.
their lives are very different from each other's.

vinlyn

Actually, MaryAnne, you used a key phrase here -- "astrology hobbyists". Astrology as a hobby is no more harmful than collecting records or rocks as a hobby.

hermitwin

they were born on the same year, same month too.

hermitwin said:

on the one hand, people dont believe rebirth bcos lack of evidence.
the same people believe that there are 12 types of people in this world?
i have 2 friends born on the same day, a few minutes apart.
their lives are very different from each other's.

hermitwin

their personalities are very different too.

hermitwin said:

they were born on the same year, same month too.

hermitwin said:

on the one hand, people dont believe rebirth bcos lack of evidence.
the same people believe that there are 12 types of people in this world?
i have 2 friends born on the same day, a few minutes apart.
their lives are very different from each other's.

karasti

The person who did mine (who is someone I know) did use books and charts, she drew up the chart for me and I framed it because it's really cool. It was a neat process.

MaryAnne

karasti said:

The person who did mine (who is someone I know) did use books and charts, she drew up the chart for me and I framed it because it's really cool. It was a neat process.

Something to be said for Old Skool for sure.

Astrolabe sends a pretty chart too... and explanations about each planet, what they 'govern' and their locations within the chart at the precise time of birth.

MaryAnne

hermitwin said:

on the one hand, people dont believe rebirth bcos lack of evidence.
the same people believe that there are 12 types of people in this world?
i have 2 friends born on the same day, a few minutes apart.
their lives are very different from each other's.

Hmmm... I am on the fence about rebirth myself. Being a secular Buddhist, it's not important to me whether it (rebirth) is a "fact" and I need to 'believe' in it, or not.
I am also an astrology hobbyist. At least I used to be for many years. That doesn't mean I put any "faith" into it - or base my life decisions on it. I find it interesting, and the coincidental match-ups between personalities and the planets at the time of birth very curious indeed.

As for your two very different friends- well who's to say one of them isn't really being who they truly are? See? Always a come back!

Jeffrey

@karasti, I used my baby book for the time of birth and I knew the place. Maybe my psychotic break had something to do with the false info?

karasti

@Jeffrey I didn't mean to imply your information specifically was wrong, I was more using "you" in a general sense. Sometimes people just don't have the accurate information, sometimes charts are just wrong, and sometimes the source is questionable. It's possibly significant psychological challenges impact it as well, I'm sure. For the record, the time recorded in my baby book is wrong compared to my birth certificate (which is in the babybook, lol). A lot of the time parents think they will never forget that information, even in time to enter it, and sometimes they are just wrong. I don't know the times of any of my kids births anymore, and am glad it's on the certificate, lol.

footiam

lillymac61 said:

Does the use of astrology to predict events and assign human characteristcs run counter to Buddhist teachings on acceptance and nature of mind? Once I was very into astrology, but now I'm thinking it's a bit of an out, wanting to know what the future holds and slotting people into pigeon holes.

I have read that astrology is not considered a high form of art. It cannot lead to Nirvana or salvation. Since we are all never near to Nirvana, astrology should be good enough for us especially to sooth some nerves if they have been ruffled. it's nice to be told there is hope. I can tell you that too without having a look at your palm!

lillymac61

hermitwin said:

their personalities are very different too.

hermitwin said:

they were born on the same year, same month too.

hermitwin said:

i have 2 friends born on the same day, a few minutes apart.
their lives are very different from each other's.

@hermitwin, aahhhh, this is where karma steps in, nature versus nurture, all the variables.

lillymac61

footiam said:

lillymac61 said:

I can tell you that too without having a look at your palm!

Well, @footiam, no crossing your palm with silver then

lillymac61

lobster said:

You will find a deep symbology in Tarot. For example the major arcana is a representation of a path of development. In a similar way astrology can be used to analyse and express the condition and means to development. This process is largely occult and these systems are used as bone throwing to predict the future. Insert quote [bunkum=inability to think for ourselves] :scratch:

@lobster, great word, Bunkum, I remember my 84yo mother used to use it all the time when I was growing up - along with Hooey, as in "What a load of hooey" (which is apparently related to phooey which means horseshit). It originated with a representative from North Carolina, who came from the county of Buncombe, and who being asked, one day, why he continued to speak to empty benches, ‘O!’ he replied, ‘I am speaking to Buncombe.’

Well, children, that's your etymology lesson for today....

lillymac61

karasti said:

A lot of the time parents think they will never forget that information, even in time to enter it, and sometimes they are just wrong. I don't know the times of any of my kids births anymore, and am glad it's on the certificate, lol.

@karasti, My mother certainly doesn't remember the time I was born - I am the baby of 6 so, fair enough. My chart was cast by an astrologer who asked me if I remembered the dates of important events in my life. I happened to remember a few dates of when I moved states and countries. From there she worked backwards to arrive at 11.20pm. My mum can concur that it was dark outside the window in spring so that only leaves about ten hours for error

I've never felt my chart described me well and I guess that's probably why.

IchLiebte

Old thread! I was googling why people associate certain chakras with different astrology signs. It kind of annoyed me. Anyway, found this thread, thought that was interesting. This basically answered my question -- I'm right to think it's odd when people intrinsically link chakras to signs.

federica

And on that note -

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/21955/dredging-up-old-threads#latest