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Do the precepts matter at all?
betaboy
Veteran
Shalom,
After going through the threads on porn, prostitution, sex trade, gun control, etc., I am beginning to wonder whether there is any right or wrong - or whether 'right' is determined by various factors like the stage of social evolution, relativity, an individual's position in life, and so on. In short, is it even worth following the right, the precepts laid down by the Buddha? Are we simply becoming more and more legalistic on this account?
Not saying we should go around and commit evil. But if liberation is all that matters, can't we just be decent human beings in this life and not obsess too much over right and wrong? For instance, I may feel that being a drug dealer is wrong but if my alternative is poverty/disease, then the fear of this alternative may force me to choose 'wrong.' But this doesn't make me a bad person, just a desperate person or a coward.
So my point is, there is no need to see everything in terms of right/wrong - in fact, most of the 'wrongs' we do are the result of circumstances, our own lack of strength (rather than an active intention to commit evil).
After going through the threads on porn, prostitution, sex trade, gun control, etc., I am beginning to wonder whether there is any right or wrong - or whether 'right' is determined by various factors like the stage of social evolution, relativity, an individual's position in life, and so on. In short, is it even worth following the right, the precepts laid down by the Buddha? Are we simply becoming more and more legalistic on this account?
Not saying we should go around and commit evil. But if liberation is all that matters, can't we just be decent human beings in this life and not obsess too much over right and wrong? For instance, I may feel that being a drug dealer is wrong but if my alternative is poverty/disease, then the fear of this alternative may force me to choose 'wrong.' But this doesn't make me a bad person, just a desperate person or a coward.
So my point is, there is no need to see everything in terms of right/wrong - in fact, most of the 'wrongs' we do are the result of circumstances, our own lack of strength (rather than an active intention to commit evil).
5
Comments
You decide, act and face the consequences of your actions.
From the moment you were born, you were conditioned by your environment.
For eg. Is polygamy wrong?
Buddhism is seen as one of the world's great religions. But take away Buddhism's moral code, and there is nothing left in Buddhism for the world to respect. In fact, think about some non-Buddhist saying, "Buddhism has no morality."
Of course, if you want to take away the 5 Precepts, the vegetarian-thumpers would leave the rest of us alone.
The thing is that such acts are done out of a sense of self, and thinking like this only strengthens this sense of self. The example I gave is rather clear, but on a more subtle level such things also happen. Think about it; lying, taking what is not given, hurting others, etc. - all of these are 99.9% of the time (if not always) coming from a self-centered view. Things like desperation and lack of courage, although of course understandable, are also coming from such a view.
Now the Buddha laid down these precepts for multiple reasons and one of them is that if we follow them, we are less likely to act out of a sense of self - thus making the sense of self weaker as a result. So the idea is not only to follow the precepts, just because we agree with them, but it is also to challenge us. In fact, if you don't agree with them it may be the best time to follow them.
In a way the entire path actually starts with right conduct. If we don't have this, the sense of self will be so strong still that meditation and insight won't take off. It's a famous order in the Buddha's teachings: virtue leads to meditation, which leads to wisdom and ultimately liberation. People may want to start with wisdom/liberation and in fact many seem to try to, but it won't work. We have to start at the start and that's why the precepts matter so much. They are an absolute cornerstone to the Buddha's teachings - if not the total foundation.
With metta,
Sabre
I know a woman who obeyed every one of our precepts for a good part of her life, much better than I ever can. Did that make her a good Buddhist? According to the precepts, she was a perfect Buddhist. But she'd never heard of these precepts and the only thing she knew about Buddhism was those people liked to worship statues of a guy with his legs crossed. My Grandmother was only following her Christian rules. After all, it doesn't take an enlightened genius to know screwing around on your husband or getting drunk and beating your neighbor on the head with a hammer leads to trouble. And what sort of moral code anywhere says hey, go ahead and lie, it's all good?
So the precepts are a few common sense observations about what generally constitutes good moral behavior for anyone. It's basic enough, just about every moral code agrees across all religions. However, they are not and were never supposed to define what being a Buddhist is all about. That is found in the Noble Truths.
Breaking the precepts doesn't make you "not a Buddhist", but it does mean you have some issues that are going to bite you in the butt and you can't say Buddha didn't warn you. So yeah, the precepts do matter at all. Just don't confuse the precepts with the Dharma.
@Sabre said: It's a famous order in the Buddha's teachings: virtue leads to meditation, which leads to wisdom and ultimately liberation. People may want to start with wisdom/liberation and in fact many seem to try to, but it won't work. We have to start at the start and that's why the precepts matter so much. They are an absolute cornerstone to the Buddha's teachings - if not the total foundation.
Knowing you are following a set of "rules" that are a benefit to all beings should make people feel better about themselves.
The precepts are just a path towards the transcendence of all tribes.
The person beyond karma can eat feces and it's the same thing as a fine meal. But I want to see the teachers above karma actually eat feces and urine before I declare their actions above mundane standards.
Right and wrong are where any sensible person begins. Socially speaking, ethics are important. Actions have consequences. If you doubt this, try robbing a bank or gob-smacking a cop. In general, it's a good idea to think through the consequences of actions -- both for ourselves and others. Spiritual persuasions are sometimes known for joining the fray -- heaven for good little boys and girls and hell for the rest. This is the world of right and wrong.
But rewards and punishments only reach so far. They may be good training and good manners, but are they really "complete?" A complete action has no edges. There is no "before" and no "after." There is nothing else. For example, try "being a Buddhist" in the midst of a sneeze. A sneeze is invariably complete and my view is that The Eightfold Path points to a life that is complete in each moment ... not because you'll get thrown in the slammer or ascend to some golden throne, but rather because each moment is already complete and you might as well get with life's program.
Just because each moment is already complete does not mean that right and wrong can be set aside. There is a certain effort required to actualizing what no one could ever escape. Any dimwit can say "every moment is complete." The challenge is to prove it.
Just noodling.
I think realizations are everyones natural inheritance at different times in their life.
A good meditation practice simply allows that realization to more fully unfold by leaving it unmolested by one's worldly graspings. A realization that might be life transformative for the meditater, usually remains an interesting but essentially fruitless experience to a worldly intentioned mind.
Let's say I want to follow the precepts, but circumstances force me to do otherwise. Then what good are the precepts ... if they are going to be subject to circumstances all the time?
How can I follow the precepts and at the same time deal with circumstances? I cannot lie, it is against the precepts, but a little lie on my CV could get me a job, put a smile on my family's face, give us bread and butter, etc. etc. Am I to ignore practical considerations in favor of precepts?
p.s.
No, just an example. I am not looking to doctor my cv or even looking for a job. I live a rather comfortable life, just an example that apply to the majority.
I think there are two things to remember about the 5 Precepts. First, there is honestly room for differing interpretations, to some degree; although some see that room as they wish to do what they want. Second, yes, you can break a Precept...and if you do, that's where kamma may or may not come around to bite you in the butt.
It's sort of like the difference between the rules our school system had for administrators, and the guidelines they had for administrators. If I broke one such rule, I was subject to disciplinary action (I never did). If I didn't follow a guideline, I was sort of on my own to maneuver any situation that arose.
And, BTW, I disagree what some people say about the Ten Commandments (for example) being so much different than the Precepts. They are somewhat different in concept, but the idea that Christians never break the Commandments...hah! They/we do all the time. And then suffer the consequences. The difference is that with the Precepts, the consequences are vague; with the Commandments, they are stark.
Buddha taught how life and the world works and that we face the consequences of our own actions.
It's up to each of us to set our guidelines (with the Buddha's teachings in mind).
. . . however it may be you are living in the real world. I was just washing out some old ornamental pots for a gardening job later. Yes I managed to save a few slugs, one worm and a few wood lice. However one wood lice was only revived when I picked him up and several may have drowned down the plug hole . . . :bawl:
Doomed.
I am doomed to servitude to the eventual enlightenment of those murdered wood lice . . .
Maybe if I cut down on the murder, drug dealing (been pushing coffee again), fantasy prostitution [not much demand for lobster porn . . . but I can dream] and chicken soup, I can make up for it?
Puja to the usual address [Crusty S Lobster, C/o of Hell Realms, Dharma Purelands, Samsara] All merit donated to the needless.
:wave:
One beings Karma is another beings suffering.
slainte
There's a story about a student who while walking at night, stepped on something that made a squishing sound. He imagined that he must have stepped on an egg-bearing frog. Immediately he was filled with fear and regret, for the precepts include not killing. When morning came, he went back to the place the incident had occurred and found that he had stepped on an overripe eggplant. Suddenly his confusion stopped. From that moment on, the story says, he knew how to truly follow the precepts.
This student erroneously thought of the precepts as a training manual or code of behavior. Identifying himself as someone who had mastered this training and who could keep the precepts, he created all kinds of trouble for himself and for others. Although he could expound upon the precepts at length, when he stepped on something squishy in the night, even without intent, his understanding of the precepts did nothing to bring him peace or stability of mind. In fact, it did just the opposite: he needlessly tortured himself with guilt.
"You don't have to floss all of teeth ... only the ones you want to keep."
I will let you to interprete this any way you wish relating to our topic of Do the precepts matter.
Hmmmm saying it's up to us to set our guidelines with the Buddha's teachings in mind is opening Buddhism up to be watered down, misrepresented and giving the opportunity to create fundamentalists much like the ones we detest in other faiths.
I have to agree with @hermitwin 's definition.
But, I've watched over the past say 20-25 years where society has taken somewhat of a "don't you oppress me" (/end Python moment) approach to everything in life. Political correctness has gone nuts. Instead of saying to someone "no that's incorrect Buddha/Jesus/Isis/HaShem/insert deity here meant xyz" now we have to tolerate an incorrect intepretation or assertion because we are scared of getting into trouble for correcting a person. No wonder our schools are in the state they're in. You can see this played out in the legal system where someone pleads leniency because they had a bad childhood and then they get 4 years for murdering someone.
I know I went off on a tangent there and I apologise for that, but my point is - if you don't WANT to follow the Precepts, why be a Buddhist in the first place? All paths require us to change our habits and lifestyles somewhat, so how can you not expect to be asked to adhere to tenets of the path you choose?
In metta,
Raven