Support equality for women in Thai monasteries.

Vastmind

The International Network of Engaged Buddhists has posted a petition on change.org to allow women to become fully-ordained nuns in Thai monasteries. They bring Buddhist institutions together for social action, and have addressed the petition to the organization that oversees Buddhism in Thailand, the Supreme Sangha Council of Thailand. Visit change.org to read the petition and and consider offering your signature.

http://www.lionsroar.com/sign-petition-support-equality-women-thai-monasteries/

The petition:
https://www.change.org/p/sangha-supreme-council-of-thailand-to-support-establishing-the-bhikkhuni-sangha-in-siam-thailand?just_signed=true

silver

I've signed the petition.

federica

Me too.

DairyLama

I've signed it. I've seen the petition on a couple of other forums, so hopefully they'll get the support they need.

DairyLama

Related article here: http://drwillajahn.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/ajahn-brahm-expelled-for-ordaining-nuns.html

DairyLama

And another one - I don't know if there has been any progress unfortunately:
http://awakeningtruth.org/teaching/writings/nuns/155-nuns-leave-now-in-need-of-support

anataman

I am just surprised that women are not treated equally in buddhism!

VOTES FOR WOMEN!

BhikkhuJayasara

I signed the petition BEFORE it was cool to sign petitions

Those interested in why this a debate and the legality of Bhikkhuni ordinations should read this well fleshed out article by Bhikkhu Analayo

blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/2013/09/22/the-legality-of-bhikkhuni-ordination/

There is nothing in the Vinaya that holds this up, it's cultural and political baggage.

lobster

Signed on behalf of 'Nun The Wiser', hopefully the kind of Dharma Sister we sentients prefer . . .

SarahT

For those who, like me, are not familiar with Buddhist terminology, the following may help:

• bikkhu: ordained male buddhist monk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu
• bikkhuni: fully ordained female Buddhist monastic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhuni
• upasaka and upasika: Upāsaka (masculine) or Upāsikā (feminine) are from the Sanskrit and Pāli words for "attendant". This is the title of followers of Buddhism (or, historically, of Gautama Buddha) who are not monks, nuns, or novice monastics in a Buddhist order, and who undertake certain vows. In modern times they have a connotation of dedicated piety that is best suggested by terms such as "lay devotee" or "devout lay follower." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upāsaka_and_Upāsikā
• sasana: a term used by Buddhists and Shaivites to refer to their religion or non-religion. It has a range of possible translations, including teaching, practice, doctrine and Buddha Śãsana, which means "the teaching of the Buddha" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śāsana

The statement on change.org states:

From earliest times the Buddha’s Sasana or teachings have depended on the Fourfold Sangha of Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, Upasaka, and Upasika.

My understanding is that the ideal in Buddhism sees no difference between male and female. http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/db_04.htm states that:

It was due to the effort of Ananda that Buddha allowed female to become bhikkhunis.

When Buddha's foster mother Mahaprajapati saw that the Buddha had attained enlightenment, that some of the princes had taken refuge in Buddha and the king was dead, she wanted to leave home to be a bhikkhuni or nun.

Mahaprajapati begged the Buddha to permit her to stay in the Buddha's community or Sangha but the Buddha refused. To avoid the frequent begging from his foster mother, the Buddha went to preach in Namantini monastery which was not far from Vaisali.

It goes on to quote the Buddha as saying:

"Ananda! the Dharma is the same in heaven or in the world. I do not discriminate against women, that is to say that I treat all sentient beings as equal. Women can do as the men did, follow my Dharma and practice but they need not become bhikkunis. This is the question of our system and not whether men and women are equal. Women leaving home are like wild grass in the field which will affect the harvest."

Of Ananda, it says:

Ananda had no thoughts of love nor desire for women but only pure friendship. However, because of women, he encountered a lot of problems thereby causing jealousy and criticisms.

I regret that, right now, I do not feel knowledgeable enough about the situation in Thailand to sign this petition. I have spent only 7 days holidaying there and do not feel I have seen the case against the petition. I have not read all the links given in this thread - just don't have the concentration in this cycle of my depressive illness - but if anyone feels able to summarise, would be immensely grateful. It is a petition I feel, instinctively, I would like to sign but I also feel that it is not my culture, not my business. It is a great gladness to me that the first female bishop was ordained in the CofE last year but should I impose my expectations of the same level of progress on Thailand?

Cinorjer

I've talked before about how one of the first things the Arahants did after Buddha's death, by their own recorded history, was call a meeting of the many existing "fully enlightened" Arahants and deliberately excluded the women, some of whom where held in just as high esteem. There they chastised Ananda for using his friendship with Buddha to convince their leader, against his better judgement, to include women as equal to men. They quickly put up roadblocks in rules of behavior that once again relegated women to second-class members.

Don't for one minute believe this is anything but propaganda spread to excuse them criticizing something Buddha wanted. To say Buddha made such a huge decision in the male-dominated structure by mistake and regretted it and thus the Arahants were only doing what Buddha would have wanted in the first place is ludicrous. The entire debate is ludicrous, if you're not invested in defending the traditions because you can't admit the old Masters were human and maybe some of them weren't even nice people by today's standards.

There's a woman standing there who wants to devote her life to the Sangha, who has something to teach all of us for the betterment of the Sangha, and is only asking she be given the respect and position she deserves. What else is there to debate?

David

Signed

Earthninja

Does anybody know the counter argument?
It sounds ridiculous that woman can't ordain. It goes against the fundamental teachings of Buddhism. Non self, emptiness etc...

But I would still like to here from somebody who is against the ordinations. And why?

DairyLama

Occasionally I will take a contrary position for the sake of encouraging debate, but not on this one.

Vastmind

I could be wrong....but I'm pretty sure sexism is the counter argument. Women are seen as less than in order to argue that they should not be given equal opportunity.

SarahT

Read lion's roar article. Seems argument is:

1. There needs to be an ordained nun present for a novice to be ordained.
2. There aren't any ordained nuns.
3. Stalemate - status quo remains with no ordained nuns.

Sounds a technicality to me - there must be a way around this requirement!

Signed.

Cinorjer

@SarahT said:
Read lion's roar article. Seems argument is:

1. There needs to be an ordained nun present for a novice to be ordained.
2. There aren't any ordained nuns.
3. Stalemate - status quo remains with no ordained nuns.

Sounds a technicality to me - there must be a way around this requirement!

Signed.

It seems to also have something to do with nationalism mixed with sexism. There are ordained nuns from other countries who have volunteered to come in and do the ceremony. The Thailand Buddhist council won't let them. I don't know. Apparently the monks there don't want to have nuns around that can give a lower ranking monk orders or that he might have to bow to. Doesn't say much for an enlightened product of their order, does it?

Chaz

@SarahT said:
Read lion's roar article. Seems argument is:

1. There needs to be an ordained nun present for a novice to be ordained.
2. There aren't any ordained nuns.
3. Stalemate - status quo remains with no ordained nuns.

Sounds a technicality to me - there must be a way around this requirement!

Signed.

Not really an argument, but it is a reflection of conditions.

federica

Ordained nuns exist. They are of the correct lineage, apparently. However, they are not in Thailand - and the "powers that be" will not permit them to attend....

federica

@Jayantha said:...> Those interested in why this a debate and the legality of Bhikkhuni ordinations should read this well fleshed out article by Bhikkhu Analayo

blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/2013/09/22/the-legality-of-bhikkhuni-ordination/

There is nothing in the Vinaya that holds this up, it's cultural and political baggage.

>

It's outrageous and nothing short of utterly despicable.

vinlyn

@SarahT said:
Read lion's roar article. Seems argument is:

1. There needs to be an ordained nun present for a novice to be ordained.
2. There aren't any ordained nuns.
3. Stalemate - status quo remains with no ordained nuns.

Sounds a technicality to me - there must be a way around this requirement!

Exactly. It's just an excuse to maintain the status quo.

Victorious

@vinlyn said:

I think Ajahn Brahm found a way around this. He says that it is not nuns but an ordained Person that needs to be present. So even monks will do.

David

@Victorious;

Yeah, that argument shouldn't even have to be made as its counter is still coming from a sexist mind set. It assumes only a female could ordain a female which would imply a female could never ordain a male.

A male would do just fine to ordain the first female if awakening is non biased.

Good to see you posting again, btw.