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Trying too little? Trying too hard?
nakazcid
Somewhere in Dixie, y'all Veteran
in Meditation
I've been trying to meditate for quite some time, and I'm torn as to how much effort I should put into meditating. I'm not making much progress, but I'm not sure if it's for lack of trying or something else. If I screw up my determination, I can force myself to concentrate for a brief time, but that tends to give me a headache. I'm also concerned that if I try too hard, that meditation will become a dreaded chore and I won't do it all. But my complete lack of progress (ie, being unable to maintain focus for a count of 10) seems to indicate that I'm not trying hard enough. Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Comments
Well....first things first. If you attempt to sit down for 15 mins....what makes you get up?
i.e......"I'm bored, forget this, I'm outta here"..."This is doing nothing"...." I don't like the thoughts that arise".....
If the counting technique isn't working for you....there are other ways of sitting down and learning to be with....
In other words....the key is finding out why you got ants in your pants and can't sit still..hahaha
@nakazcid -- Does the one who knows you have made no progress fail to progress? My guess is that s/he is pretty sure of him-/herself and has progressed nicely.
Patience, courage and doubt are your great allies. And of these, patience is probably most necessary. If, instead of Buddhism, you choose to seek out some Tooth Fairy of advancement, you're in the wrong game. Buddhism concerns what is, not what might be. So...
Take this matter gently but firmly in hand. Start small ... perhaps just five minutes. Failure and success are not the point. Five minutes is the point. So, for a week, do five minutes a day. At the end of the week, reflect: How was it, overall? Too hard, too easy, too laced with lack of progress? Too filled with success? Reflect and then revise as necessary ... perhaps a couple of more minutes next week. Don't fail to keep your promise to practice ... just practice and see what happens. Make a promise, keep a promise ... and practice.
In forty-plus years of practice, I never made it perfectly to 10. If I had, I think Buddhism would no longer be relevant.
Patience. Determination. Everyone has the same problems. Stop imagining you are alone.
Best wishes.
I'm also concerned that if I try too hard, that meditation will become a dreaded chore and I won't do it all.
Yes, I think that's a common problem actually. What I've found helpful is to focus on making it a pleasant experience, something to look forward to. So for example I'll start with getting nicely relaxed. Try it.
Thanks for the input. Let me provide a little more information.
I've been doing this for years. For a few months, I'll keep up a nice consistent practice of 20 minutes a day. Then some life event will come along and smack me, and I'll relapse to doing 5 minutes every once in a while. Then I'll get back on the horse again.
My frustration comes from the apparent "lack of progress" with samatha. With metta bhavana I've seen the changes in my attitude, my mood and the way I treat people. It's been a gradual, but quite noticeable, improvement. With samatha, I see zip. My mind remains the same chattering monkey in the trees.
@Genkaku, patience may indeed be the answer. But I have a nagging feeling I'm doing something wrong to not see any changes in concentration. Motivation may also be an issue. Despite the benefits of meditation that I've personally experienced, there are times when I'd rather chase distractions.
With samatha, I see zip.
Suggestions:
Review your basic approach and technique - there are many variations and it can take a while to find one that works for you. Have you had any formal instruction, and if not could you get some? Some people just aren't doing it right. Maybe try a different approach.
Extend the length of your sits, say to 30 minutes. If you have a busy life it can take 15-20 minutes to basically quieten the mind, at which point meditation proper begins, the good stuff. If you can manage say 30 minutes, that might make a lot of difference.
Doing something wrong or more often nothing wrong is the whole of my practice.
In other words I sit doing nothing wrong.
When doing something right, clearly I am trying too hard.
You are expecting results . . . m m m . . . seems a little pushy . . .
I disagree. If people aren't doing it right, it all gets like hard work, not enjoyable, and eventually people give up. It's quite reasonable to expect some kind of "result", something positive.
Trying too hard is a common problem, but that's to do with the technique itself, not the overall effect of meditating which should be noticeable and positive.
@SpinyNorman I'll try extending my sessions to 30 minutes and see if that helps. The only local instruction I can find is Shambhala, which is a whole other discussion.
@lobster I don't know what to say. I know having an expectation of a particular outcome is, um, unskillful. Yet "just sitting" without any benchmarks or goalposts seems .... purposeless? aimless? It's hard to put into words.
@genkaku Oh, and thanks for your confessional. Talking to people locally generates the impression that everyone is much better at this than I am. It helps to realize that it's a struggle for everyone.
Hiya nakazcid!
I relate to your struggles with meditation
.
I would recommend the Art of Mindfulness by Thich Naht Hanh, it gives god advice on meditation technique and on how to develop practice and more mindfulness generally. It's helpful and gorgeously written. By reading this, you can see if your technique is okay
and if there are any ways in which you could develop. If you don't want to buy anything, I am sure there are lots of solid instructions online - like videos or articles. For a while, I would meditate lying down, but I read that you go deeper sitting and that if the back is not straight then the mind easily wonders - little techniques like this can make a big difference 
.
What I have found for me, is that whenever I 'feel like meditating' and I will often get a small pang to do some throughout my day - then I stop what I am doing and go and do it. I used to have a set time for meditation and thought it would be helpful but I just found a lot of resistance and annoyance, like often I would want to read or doing something else rather than meditate. So now I just loosen up and just do so when I feel like it.
I read some good advice, that helped me. Apparently when we form habits, our minds take not of how we feel directly after we do the habit. So for example, if we say "we are going for a run" and then straight afterwards we do something we don't really like, like chores or the run makes us late for work and feel more stressed - then we are programming ourselves to feel punished for doing that habit, we are trying to cultivate. It's interesting - for me I would meditate before I brushed my teeth and washed my face for sleep - I don't really enjoy brushing my teeth so I was effectively punishing myself and resisting doing it. This may not be relevant t you
but it has made a big difference to my practice and keeping it up - as now I sandwich it in-between things I enjoy doing and it just flows into part of the day rather than seeing it as a chore.
You may well be right. But the 'x' factor in all of this is the suffering, the unsatisfactoriness, and the uncertainty that gives liftoff to practice. Yup, I may be doing it wrong; yup, I may not find it thrilling or even enticing; yup my legs hurt; yup, I'm not holy or serene or 'Buddhist' enough ... but then there is my willingness to credit the teachers and teachings, both of which seem a good counterbalance to the edginess I feel. It's a gamble (I don't yet actually know), of course, but it's the best bet I can see ... even when I do it 'wrong.'
FWIW.
Now yer onto something. ;-)
Turn your attitude around 180 about having no 'goalposts', no purpose, and be patient and you just might catch a glimpse of real freedom.
Hard to put into words? . . . or hard to put in a deckchair?
Meditation in a comfy chair is the way to go!
even when I do it 'wrong.'
If we're talking about technique I think it's worth learning to do it right, in the knowledge that there will be days when not much happens. I don't go along with the "grit your teeth and suffer through it" approach though.
@nakazcid: You seem too concerned with technical instructions, doing meditation the wrong or the right way, striving, lack of progress, labelling your experience...
What about putting all expectations aside, simply sitting on your cushion and breathing?
Whether 5 minutes, 20 or 30, simply suspend all judgement, forget your hectic day, breathe, watch your thoughts as they arise, drop them and don't get up until you're through.
Step by step without overanalyzing your approach.
Yup.
Technique be damned, just sit quiet for a while!
if one feels one's meditation seems not much progress,
one has to look back and check one's virtue of the day (whether one has broken the precepts- three bodily wrong doing and four verbal wrong doing)
try not to make them again and go for meditation
(trying makes one is perfect in one's virtue)
OK, so no technique, no expectations, just sit. I've always been taught/read to focus on something (even if it is as simple as the breath) and bring my concentration back to the focus if my thoughts stray. I've found references to labelling/watching thoughts as they arise in some Zen books, but never tried that particular approach.
There is nothing WRONG with not seeing any changes in your concentration.
You barely even have EYES to see that kind of stuff yet
You could be going gangbusters, progress wise, for all you know.
Who is this judge judging? Sit for 15 minutes and just wait for the judge to make its appearance. Ask 'what is this?'
Who is this 'authority', and how does it have any idea of what is 'right' or 'wrong' or 'progress' or 'stagnation'?
>
It's not about concentration, really...
It's okay to have some sort of personal issue on the back burner of your mind just before you enter into your meditation/mindfulness session.
I start out by paying attention to my breath and if/when some background noise of any type happens, I pay attention to it, and when it stops, I go back to the breath...but, it's all for the purpose of just not thinking of anything in particular, but IF thoughts seem to crowd in, just let them.....and then let them waltz on out and think on your breathing or any other bodily sensations you may have. It's a whole lot easier than I thought it would be.
You sit on a beach in a ridiculous posture, watching endless waves. Sound like Nirvana?
Gently, gently. Endless waves.
[lobster waves]
If smooth sailing and gold medals are what you seek, buy a sailboat, put it in the bath tub and get a pad of stick-on stars from WalMart.
I LOVE a good soak! I sometimes fix a cup of tea for my soak-time.
But I need a sailboat!
Your post reminded me of something a monk once said on a video I was watching, he was a Western monk. I should try and dig it out to help you, but what he said went something like this.
'Meditation is like holding a delicate bird in your hands, if you hold it too tight it will be crushed and hurt or killed, if you hold it too loosely it will fly away. Each day the bird will have a different mood and temperament, some days it will be relaxed and tame and others it will be erratic, so you have to know the fine line between how to hold the bird without hurting it or letting it go.'
I have no idea if this helps you, but your situation reminded me of that analogy.
You sit on a beach in a ridiculous posture, watching endless waves. Sound like Nirvana?
Gently, gently. Endless waves.
I do that! Lovely!
As we all know mindful choccy eating and bubble bath meditation are skilfull means . . .
http://stress.about.com/od/meditation/ht/bath_meditation.htm
http://thebathtubdiva.com/guided-meditation-bubbles-and-om
Even elephant Ganesh without a bath can participate . . .
The attitude in meditation is certainly gentle and kind. Willfull determination doesn't go very far.
Yes, no striving. Be gentle.
>
Amen!
I thought I would post an update to this somewhat dated thread. I've started a loose regimen of meditating 15-20 minutes a day (more on the weekends, but also more episodic), letting my thoughts arise, labelling/analyzing them a bit, and then letting go of them. A lot of clinging, and to a lesser extent, aversion has come up. My, how I dislike my current financial insecurity. Yet I'm so much better off than ... 90% of the world.
Anyway, I've also noticed a peculiar feeling come up. It's a bit like vulnerability (Brene' Brown, anyone?), but without the fear. Openness, maybe? It's rather pleasant, though I know I shouldn't expect it every session or cling to it. But so far it's been rather consistent and enjoyable, and has been sticking around for a good while after my sessions are over. I also find myself doing at least a little analysis of arising thoughts outside of sittings. However, sessions seem awfully ... mushy and unfocused. Still it's something, I guess.
I'll stop rambling now and look at some sensible postings.
@nakazcid well done. Your practice routine seems fine. The natural stilling, even though you seem 'mushy and unfocused', is something that will subtly creep into your life. The mind is initially all over the place. It settles. It changes. Always there . . .
As for the peculiar feeling. Do not worry too much about naming. Glad it is good. I had one the other day. Just like you not sure what it was. However mine was not good. Not sure what it was, not fear, not anger. Managed to pin it down in the body. It is gone and I still do not know its name.
When you can meditate on a roller-coaster - you've hit the nail on the head!
'nuff said
the only wrong meditation is when you think there is right and wrong... that said if you think the method isn't working then ask the person who gave that method if possible
you can of course try all different things. that doesn't mean that there was a right and wrong. it's all a process and ultimately you are 'just sitting'. No big deal. Nothing to gain other than the present moment.
Shamata is a lot of work. That is for sure. If it were easy the dudes/dudettes at the bar would be meditating instead, right?
To explain the first statement when you let go of right and wrong then that feature just drops away. Whereas if you believe in right and wrong (meditation) that is just an idea you got caught up in and since you don't have control of your mental arisings (they are non-self) then you will have at times a sense of 'wrong'. When right and wrong drop away they still arise but you don't get caught up in either idea.
@nakazcid,
When you're 'ready' it will happen and when it does you'll know it...So relax...
I've been meditating with the Insight app for exactly thirty days today, and in the forum people ask all sorts of questions about the things they come up with during their meditation sitting.
Though I agree with the "no-right-or-wrong-way" to meditate, I would think, if anything, overpondering the thought material that crops up during meditation is giving our mind one more chance to get in the way of our meditation.
If any feeling worth analyzing crops up, I drop it with the promise that I'll get back to it after my meditation.
Otherwise, I continue sitting on the cushion no matter what, and breathing through any mind boobytrap no matter what.
Remember, @nakazcid, your mind's function is to produce thoughts, so I would not get too entangled in the feelings they trigger until after my meditation session.
If you are saying that there aren't right and wrong approaches to meditation then I don't agree. There are different approaches to meditation but each has it's own methodology and purpose. I don't think we are doing beginners any favours by implying that it doesn't really matter what happens in meditation, because it matters very much. There is little point in somebody sitting there for 20 minutes with no idea how to calm their mind and no way of understanding what is going on.
I agree. Thinking about stuff in meditation is completely missing the point. It's a non-conceptual process of calming and clarifying.
Openness is good. I sometimes refer to "spaciousness", probably a similar feeling.
I do see your point. However, I thought part of the point of the meditation was to identify hindrances, etc. as they arise. Sometimes a given thought will take a little analysis to figure out whether it's this or that.
It depends on the type of meditation, but generally the idea is to calm the mind first so that whatever arises can be seen more clearly. Analysing stuff ( ie thinking about it ) isn't generally a meditative activity, that is better done off the cushion.
In meditation you might just note the arising of a hindrance, but then return to the breath or whatever. Remember that the hindrances apply generally to Buddhist practice, not just to meditation, so they also need to be noted off the cushion as an aspect of mindfulness. There are traditional anti-dotes to the hindrances which you might want to explore.
@SpinyNorman there is a method and that is given by a teacher to a student at a specific time and place. You can call my method wrong and I can call yours wrong. Who is to arbitrate this? Buddha?
From another context (Sautantrika and Prasangika view of emptiness) method is relative bodhictta and awareness is ultimate bodhicitta. Relative and ultimate bodhicitta are like the 'two truths'. Method is a relative teaching such as how to boil an egg. Awareness is that open, clear, and sensitive awareness and is the one that can 'see' to a new method.
Another way to say it is that awareness is already perfect and indestructible even when the posture is wrong (or oh heavens! I had a thought
)etc
I think you missed my point, which is that while different methods are taught, they are all specific methods, and it's important to follow a method so as to not waste time and get frustrated.
Bear in mind that an increasing number of people are learning meditation off the internet and not direct from a teacher.
A method is a tool. For example the essence of meditation is not to follow the breath. That breath is just a tool so you are not distracted from your awareness. Some people trying on the breath makes them MORE anxious and they might be better served noting the feeling of their buttox rather than the breath.
Yes the teacher can have written a text. They can be dead and you are their student! You also even be self taught since you have Buddha nature.
Essence of meditation and method to the essence. Finding the right door . . .
My early view and method was more, 'right concentration'. In other words it was all about tightening or disciplining the mind. There are many methods that do this.
I feel people often rebel and stop such a discipline - if not supported, highly motivated or finding useful results. The results can be too subtle to notice anything but mind rebellion.
If I can advise my former self using this approach it would be like so:
Today I only return to the posture, the discipline is only in the returning. So now I sit. Undisciplined. Mind wild. Monkey wild. The monkey sits with me. Waving and returning each day . . .
It depends on the type of meditation, but for anapanasati the method is to follow the breath. Sure, there are different methods, and people are different too. This is another reason why people should be getting face-to-face instruction on meditation.
As for what the "essence" of meditation is, that might make an interesting thread!
Yes, and I think people often struggle with that balance. One of my teachers used to say "alert yet relaxed", and I think that captures it quite well. I think generally we are aiming for a sort of spacious and gentle mindfulness, but it can be a bit of a tightrope walk getting the balance right.