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What is permanent?

Besides impermanence, what is permanent? What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

Comments

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    Nothing

    ShoshinEarthninjaVastmindyuneifique
  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    @dantepw said:
    Besides impermanence, what is permanent?

    I think that's about it.

    What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

    It may depend on the definition of attach. I wouldn't go out of my way to let go of compassion but it's not something to be identified with either.

    Vastmind
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Yes, truly nothing. What did you have in mind when you asked? Or what, rather, prompted the question? But we are, as humans, attached to a lot of things. So it kind of depends what you mean by attached, as well. Generally it means something we cling to, or push away (aversion).

    Vastmind
  • What is time? Is time permanent? Without it we would have no notion of permanent/impermanent right?

    0student0
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Jeffrey said:
    What is time? Is time permanent? Without it we would have no notion of permanent/impermanent right?

    Do you mean Chronological time or Psychological time..?

  • Either I suppose.

  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited November 2015

    Besides impermanence, what is permanent?

    That space from which all phenomenon arises. It's not tangible. However there is moment to moment experience of this. Without space forms could not appear. Could not exist. We would not exist.

    Impermanence refers to objects which appear in space. From the infinitesimal to the infinitely vast.

    We cannot say it does not exist. Because we experience space. When there is space we know It without doubt or question.

    How can that which is unborn be impermanent?

    Only its contents are impermanent.

    How do we know it's unborn?

    Even if space, which is not a thing, came into existence from some other source, then that source would have to be the source of all appearances. The origin of all things. Which must also be unborn. And therefore unchanging. If it changes then it eventually fades from existence. Only the permanent is eternally fixed. If it is not eternally fixed, then it cannot be the source of all. It must also have a source of origin.

    And If you said, well maybe the universe and all appearances within it had no thing as its origin.

    Then in this case we are back to space. For even when the most fundamental particles in the universe seemingly appear from no where. That no where is in space.

    And this body arose as a result of it.

    We are that.

    Which is no thing.

    What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

    Our natural condition is free from all attachments. Attachments are external objects or concepts which aren't inherent.
    We weren't born with them. They weren't built into this body. They aren't encoded in our DNA. They are foreign objects which we have accepted as belonging to us.

    Any attachment can become an issue.

    ...wouldn't go out of my way to let go of compassion but it's not something to be identified with either.

    Natural Compassion, which does not emerge from thought and is non conceptual cannot be an attachment.

    It naturally arises without your knowledge of it being this or that. It happens without volition. If it is intentional acts of kindness then yes it can be attached to and become a problem.

    As typically that type of kindness is self centered and done most times, but not always, for some personal gratification.

    Remain unattached.

    Those essentials for your existence will remain essential. If they are not essential, then they will fall away. You don't need to attach to anything to be content. And by content I mean neutral. Which is always in the middle.

  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited November 2015

    Is time permanent?

    Time is conceptual. If you have no concepts in your mind. There is no perception of change or time. Time is the result of the differentiating mind. No differentiation, no perception of change or time.

    Change and time is labeling, defining and describing by mind.

    Yes we can look at the world and see how things change over time, relatively speaking. But we label it as change and the passage of time from the conceptual mind.

    No conceptual thinking no perception of change or time.

    rohit
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    @dantepw said:
    What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

    The dharma. Even though it's not permanent, it's still safe to attach to IMO

    dhammachickAjeevakDharmanaVastmind
  • howhow Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @dantepw

    What is safe?????

    If you define safe as something that will not cause you suffering, then attachments to anything remains a cause for suffering, whether or not you consider that anything to be permanent or impermanent.

    Suffering from attachments, not only occurs because everything is impermanent and can not be dependably attached to
    but
    because any attachments simply limit the degree to which anyone can awaken from the dream of their own ignorance.

    Now there are Buddhist schools which allow for and even foster ever subtler degrees of attachments, as a motivating tool to always keep going further on
    but
    eventually they all meet on the path where those attachments have been left behind.

    so I think you first need to give us your definition of safe.

    Vastmind
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    ~Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya~ (Nothing whatsoever should be clung to)-

    The world and all who sail in her is just a state of flux...So change is all there is to latch onto and some might think this sucks ! .....

    Change .....that's the only life raft available in the ocean of Samsara....

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited November 2015

    Concepts(circles, squares, space-time, numbers, gravity) can be permanent until they are replaced by new ones. A circle will always be a circle.

    What are impermanent are sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, feelings and thoughts. Since concepts are thoughts, they are ultimately impermanent. They are all visitors and can be interesting to watch without getting too involved/attached.

    They arise and cease, arise and cease.... The background from which they arise from and cease into can be considered permanent/unchanging.

    Don't need to believe. Just be still and see for yourself.

    The Buddha called the appearance of something solid a magician's trick. The "magician" makes you think that there is something solid in this consciousness [SN,22,95]. But it is just things arising and passing away. That's all there is! That which knows is an empty process. Because it is empty it can stop. If there were something there, knowing would be endless. There is a basic law of physics called the "law of the conservation of energy". Energy can mutate from one type to another as it passes through the whole of Samsara. But if there is nothing there, if consciousness is empty of substance, only then can it stop.

    http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed076.htm

    There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
    Nibbana Sutta -Unbinding

  • Interesting pov, guys.

    Therefore let's agree that there is nothing permanent, but there are things that could result benefit when attaching to (the dharmma, kindness, metta, etc).

    And maybe these attachments could clear our minds on an almost permanently positive level...? I mean permanently positive by being able to recognize one's suffering and being able to not dwell in it.

    rohitlobsterVastmind
  • @dantepw said:
    And maybe these attachments could clear our minds on an almost permanently positive level...? I mean permanently positive by being able to recognize one's suffering and being able to not dwell in it.

    Good plan. Not always easy but a good plan. <3
    What you are describing is 'a raft'. In essence made of the three jewels. Or we might call it skilfull means/attachments.

    Many of us do need these attachments. Embrace the positive, abandon the suffering.

    Yes later these attachments become less important but always recognise what you need, what works, what improves.

    Trust yourself.

    dantepwBunksVastmindhow
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    P.E.R.M.A.N.E.N.T.

    Spells permanent. That's per-ma-nent.

    That's about it really.

    seeker242
  • Whatever it is, an idea, a glimpse, hopefully we can get a non-stressful glimpse of it.

  • To put it another way: Impermanence,as my teacher says, is permanently impermanent.

    Vastmind
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Everything that arises will cease, our sun will also eventually burn up.
    It's wise not to get attached to anything, but non attachment is not a choice. It's an insight that is realised. :/

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited November 2015

    I'm likin this thread!! Good stuff ...... :)

    Thanks to impermanence , everything is possible. --TNH

    Shoshin
  • Stuff just comes and goes doesn't it?

    rohit
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @dantepw said:
    Besides impermanence, what is permanent? What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

    @dantepw one must ask one 'self' "Does it really matter ? "

    The present is the only moment that matters and this is but a brief moment in time/space :)

    I've been trying to catch the present moment, shish I think it's here right now-
    so I'm about to sneak up on it and capture it some how-
    But I have to be really diligent , for it's as slippery as can be-
    Every time I reach out to grasp it, just like running water, it slides free

    Walkerrohitdantepw
  • rohitrohit Maharrashtra Veteran

    For now i see thoughts are the only permanent thing which comes and go permanently which makes me worry.

    dantepw
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @rohit said:
    For now i see thoughts are the only permanent thing which comes and go permanently which makes me worry.

    "I'm worried and I ought not to worry but because I worry, I'm worried because I worry !"

    Do you see the cycle of thought pattern you have locked into @rohit

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2015

    Permanence is a concept that I don't think we can ever fully understand.

    There are things that we can say are conventionally permanent in the sense being "continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change." In terms of awakening, for example, this 'liberation of mind' (cetovimutti) is said to be unshakable, total, and permanent in the sense that an arahant achieves irreversible release — i.e., complete eradication of the mental defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion — and can never fall back to a lower stage. But that observation in and of itself is extremely limited. Does it last after death? Does it matter?

    And even the laws of the universe, which are permanent in a sense, depend on the continued existence of this particualt universe, something that isn't certain. So I'm not sure we can say with any real certainty that anything outside of our experience is absolutely permanent, hence the saying "nothing whatsoever should be clung to" (sabba dhamma nalam abhinivesaya).

    0student0Shoshinseeker242
  • rohitrohit Maharrashtra Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @Shoshin said:

    @rohit said:
    For now i see thoughts are the only permanent thing which comes and go permanently which makes me worry.

    "I'm worried and I ought not to worry but because I worry, I'm worried because I worry !"

    Do you see the cycle of thought pattern you have locked into @rohit

    Ya, pending work and assignments plus laziness making hindrance. This pattern I have observed the cycle you have mentioned . I have realized that it's better to start action than just worrying after thinking on this cycle.
    Thanks.

    But I do believe that thoughts is a reality and permanent for most of us until we get supreme peak of achievement.

    Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @rohit said:

    But I do believe that thoughts is a reality and permanent for most of us until we get supreme peak of achievement.

    Thinking creates the illusion that thinking is permanent

    rohit
  • @dantepw said:
    Besides impermanence, what is permanent? What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?

    Just because something is permanent doesn't mean you should be attached to it. But the Buddha said that Buddha-nature is permanent (it's always there within us, even though we may not recognize it), and Buddhahood is, too.

    rohitdantepw
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing great lakes Veteran

    chocolate is forever

    lobsterShoshinsilver
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @sova said:
    chocolate is forever

    Some's craving for chocolate seems to last forever :lol:

  • To see a World in a Grain of cocoa
    And a Heaven in a Truffle,
    Hold Infinity in the melt of your tongue
    And Eternity in an instant.

    William Flake
    http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/blake/to_see_world.html

    (will there be choccy in the naughty corner?) :3

    sova
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No.

    lobstersova
  • No chocolate? Now that would be Hell.

    lobsterShoshinsova
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited December 2015

    WHAT !!! No chocolate ?

    Walkerlobstersova
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    In the naughty corner, guys - in the naughty corner. In the GOOD corner, there's chocolate. Hell, the GOOd corner is MADE of chocolate!

    lobstersilversova
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited December 2015

    @federica said:
    In the naughty corner, guys - in the naughty corner. In the GOOD corner, there's chocolate. Hell, the GOOd corner is MADE of chocolate!

    The road to hell is paved with golden chocolate :lol:

    sova
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran

    ^ SILLINESS seems like it's here to stay. Dunno 'bout the firmament, though, as earthquakes come and go.

    sova
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Nirvana said:
    ^ SILLINESS seems like it's here to stay.

    "The next best thing to finding a solution to a dilemma is to find a little humour in it."

    Davidsova
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    "What is permanent?"
    @Nirvana 's permanent, so "I" have heard :)

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2015

    "I" dunno. "I" 'll ask Kurt Cobain, shall "I"....? (What's with the speech-marks all the time..?)

  • Hmmm...last time I checked, the only thing permanent was change.
    Of course, we are safely attached to the Earth by something called gravity.
    Then again...WEEEEEEEE!!!! ;)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited December 2015

    Important point (chocolate distraction):

    Nirvana is not a permanent condition or state. It is the annihilation, removal, blowing out of the conditions giving rise to states.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

    It is not the stateless state.

    To put it in chocolate terms: Nirvana is the removal of the shell of a hollow easter egg. The centre of the egg is no different to what is all around it.

    Emptiness is form and Form is hollow as we heretical Mahayana candle lighters like to say ...

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran

    In the human realm, let me reiterate, silliness seems to be part of the firmament. Take, for instance, the pronouncements from officialdom today in San Berdardino, California, USA. They said that they "could not rule out terrorism" as the motive behind the mass slaughter of civilians there. OK, so when did our language become so confused that such acts of random terror and cruelty MIGHT be seen in any other light?

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited December 2015

    @lobster said:
    Important point (chocolate distraction):

    Nirvana is not a permanent condition or state. It is the annihilation, removal, blowing out of the conditions giving rise to states.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

    Um so the candle can be lite again ? ? ? ..... :)

  • @Shoshin said:
    Um so the candle can be lite again ? ? ? ..... :)

    The conditions of dukkha, even if only and through others are always alighting ... that does not change.

    Shoshin
  • FelinoFelino Portugal New

    Attachment to impermanence...impermanence is permanent.

This discussion has been closed.