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What is permanent?
dantepw
Veteran
Besides impermanence, what is permanent? What could we safely be attached to, in your opinion?
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Nothing
I think that's about it.
It may depend on the definition of attach. I wouldn't go out of my way to let go of compassion but it's not something to be identified with either.
Yes, truly nothing. What did you have in mind when you asked? Or what, rather, prompted the question? But we are, as humans, attached to a lot of things. So it kind of depends what you mean by attached, as well. Generally it means something we cling to, or push away (aversion).
What is time? Is time permanent? Without it we would have no notion of permanent/impermanent right?
Do you mean Chronological time or Psychological time..?
Either I suppose.
That space from which all phenomenon arises. It's not tangible. However there is moment to moment experience of this. Without space forms could not appear. Could not exist. We would not exist.
Impermanence refers to objects which appear in space. From the infinitesimal to the infinitely vast.
We cannot say it does not exist. Because we experience space. When there is space we know It without doubt or question.
How can that which is unborn be impermanent?
Only its contents are impermanent.
How do we know it's unborn?
Even if space, which is not a thing, came into existence from some other source, then that source would have to be the source of all appearances. The origin of all things. Which must also be unborn. And therefore unchanging. If it changes then it eventually fades from existence. Only the permanent is eternally fixed. If it is not eternally fixed, then it cannot be the source of all. It must also have a source of origin.
And If you said, well maybe the universe and all appearances within it had no thing as its origin.
Then in this case we are back to space. For even when the most fundamental particles in the universe seemingly appear from no where. That no where is in space.
And this body arose as a result of it.
We are that.
Which is no thing.
Our natural condition is free from all attachments. Attachments are external objects or concepts which aren't inherent.
We weren't born with them. They weren't built into this body. They aren't encoded in our DNA. They are foreign objects which we have accepted as belonging to us.
Any attachment can become an issue.
Natural Compassion, which does not emerge from thought and is non conceptual cannot be an attachment.
It naturally arises without your knowledge of it being this or that. It happens without volition. If it is intentional acts of kindness then yes it can be attached to and become a problem.
As typically that type of kindness is self centered and done most times, but not always, for some personal gratification.
Remain unattached.
Those essentials for your existence will remain essential. If they are not essential, then they will fall away. You don't need to attach to anything to be content. And by content I mean neutral. Which is always in the middle.
Time is conceptual. If you have no concepts in your mind. There is no perception of change or time. Time is the result of the differentiating mind. No differentiation, no perception of change or time.
Change and time is labeling, defining and describing by mind.
Yes we can look at the world and see how things change over time, relatively speaking. But we label it as change and the passage of time from the conceptual mind.
No conceptual thinking no perception of change or time.
The dharma. Even though it's not permanent, it's still safe to attach to IMO
@dantepw
What is safe?????
If you define safe as something that will not cause you suffering, then attachments to anything remains a cause for suffering, whether or not you consider that anything to be permanent or impermanent.
Suffering from attachments, not only occurs because everything is impermanent and can not be dependably attached to
but
because any attachments simply limit the degree to which anyone can awaken from the dream of their own ignorance.
Now there are Buddhist schools which allow for and even foster ever subtler degrees of attachments, as a motivating tool to always keep going further on
but
eventually they all meet on the path where those attachments have been left behind.
so I think you first need to give us your definition of safe.
~Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya~ (Nothing whatsoever should be clung to)-
The world and all who sail in her is just a state of flux...So change is all there is to latch onto and some might think this sucks ! .....
Change .....that's the only life raft available in the ocean of Samsara....
Concepts(circles, squares, space-time, numbers, gravity) can be permanent until they are replaced by new ones. A circle will always be a circle.
What are impermanent are sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, feelings and thoughts. Since concepts are thoughts, they are ultimately impermanent. They are all visitors and can be interesting to watch without getting too involved/attached.
They arise and cease, arise and cease.... The background from which they arise from and cease into can be considered permanent/unchanging.
Don't need to believe. Just be still and see for yourself.
The Buddha called the appearance of something solid a magician's trick. The "magician" makes you think that there is something solid in this consciousness [SN,22,95]. But it is just things arising and passing away. That's all there is! That which knows is an empty process. Because it is empty it can stop. If there were something there, knowing would be endless. There is a basic law of physics called the "law of the conservation of energy". Energy can mutate from one type to another as it passes through the whole of Samsara. But if there is nothing there, if consciousness is empty of substance, only then can it stop.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed076.htm
Interesting pov, guys.
Therefore let's agree that there is nothing permanent, but there are things that could result benefit when attaching to (the dharmma, kindness, metta, etc).
And maybe these attachments could clear our minds on an almost permanently positive level...? I mean permanently positive by being able to recognize one's suffering and being able to not dwell in it.
Good plan. Not always easy but a good plan.
What you are describing is 'a raft'. In essence made of the three jewels. Or we might call it skilfull means/attachments.
Many of us do need these attachments. Embrace the positive, abandon the suffering.
Yes later these attachments become less important but always recognise what you need, what works, what improves.
Trust yourself.
P.E.R.M.A.N.E.N.T.
Spells permanent. That's per-ma-nent.
That's about it really.
Whatever it is, an idea, a glimpse, hopefully we can get a non-stressful glimpse of it.
To put it another way: Impermanence,as my teacher says, is permanently impermanent.
Everything that arises will cease, our sun will also eventually burn up.
It's wise not to get attached to anything, but non attachment is not a choice. It's an insight that is realised.
I'm likin this thread!! Good stuff ......
Thanks to impermanence , everything is possible. --TNH
Stuff just comes and goes doesn't it?
@dantepw one must ask one 'self' "Does it really matter ? "
The present is the only moment that matters and this is but a brief moment in time/space
I've been trying to catch the present moment, shish I think it's here right now-
so I'm about to sneak up on it and capture it some how-
But I have to be really diligent , for it's as slippery as can be-
Every time I reach out to grasp it, just like running water, it slides free
For now i see thoughts are the only permanent thing which comes and go permanently which makes me worry.
"I'm worried and I ought not to worry but because I worry, I'm worried because I worry !"
Do you see the cycle of thought pattern you have locked into @rohit
Permanence is a concept that I don't think we can ever fully understand.
There are things that we can say are conventionally permanent in the sense being "continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change." In terms of awakening, for example, this 'liberation of mind' (cetovimutti) is said to be unshakable, total, and permanent in the sense that an arahant achieves irreversible release — i.e., complete eradication of the mental defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion — and can never fall back to a lower stage. But that observation in and of itself is extremely limited. Does it last after death? Does it matter?
And even the laws of the universe, which are permanent in a sense, depend on the continued existence of this particualt universe, something that isn't certain. So I'm not sure we can say with any real certainty that anything outside of our experience is absolutely permanent, hence the saying "nothing whatsoever should be clung to" (sabba dhamma nalam abhinivesaya).
Ya, pending work and assignments plus laziness making hindrance. This pattern I have observed the cycle you have mentioned . I have realized that it's better to start action than just worrying after thinking on this cycle.
Thanks.
But I do believe that thoughts is a reality and permanent for most of us until we get supreme peak of achievement.
Thinking creates the illusion that thinking is permanent
Just because something is permanent doesn't mean you should be attached to it. But the Buddha said that Buddha-nature is permanent (it's always there within us, even though we may not recognize it), and Buddhahood is, too.
chocolate is forever
Some's craving for chocolate seems to last forever
To see a World in a Grain of cocoa
And a Heaven in a Truffle,
Hold Infinity in the melt of your tongue
And Eternity in an instant.
William Flake
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/blake/to_see_world.html
(will there be choccy in the naughty corner?)
No.
No chocolate? Now that would be Hell.
WHAT !!! No chocolate ?
In the naughty corner, guys - in the naughty corner. In the GOOD corner, there's chocolate. Hell, the GOOd corner is MADE of chocolate!
The road to hell is paved with golden chocolate
^ SILLINESS seems like it's here to stay. Dunno 'bout the firmament, though, as earthquakes come and go.
"The next best thing to finding a solution to a dilemma is to find a little humour in it."
"What is permanent?"
@Nirvana 's permanent, so "I" have heard
"I" dunno. "I" 'll ask Kurt Cobain, shall "I"....? (What's with the speech-marks all the time..?)
Hmmm...last time I checked, the only thing permanent was change.
Of course, we are safely attached to the Earth by something called gravity.
Then again...WEEEEEEEE!!!!
Important point (chocolate distraction):
Nirvana is not a permanent condition or state. It is the annihilation, removal, blowing out of the conditions giving rise to states.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana
It is not the stateless state.
To put it in chocolate terms: Nirvana is the removal of the shell of a hollow easter egg. The centre of the egg is no different to what is all around it.
Emptiness is form and Form is hollow as we heretical Mahayana candle lighters like to say ...
In the human realm, let me reiterate, silliness seems to be part of the firmament. Take, for instance, the pronouncements from officialdom today in San Berdardino, California, USA. They said that they "could not rule out terrorism" as the motive behind the mass slaughter of civilians there. OK, so when did our language become so confused that such acts of random terror and cruelty MIGHT be seen in any other light?
Um so the candle can be lite again ? ? ? .....
The conditions of dukkha, even if only and through others are always alighting ... that does not change.
Attachment to impermanence...impermanence is permanent.