Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Is this wrong?

Hi guys,

I live with other family members in the house.
Some of them like to turn on the electronic chanting box machine continuously. When it plays, everybody can hear it, since it's not placed in a closed room or something like that.

I don't really mind with that but a few days ago, more quieter environment is needed in order to concentrate on something that is quite important to me. Sometimes a continuous loop can be quite not suitable in some situations and I thought "this is quite noisy" with quite a bit of dislike in the mind and then turned it off.

Question is, since it's a Sutra to be precise. Did I make a bad (heavy) kamma since I turned it off with such thought? Thanks.

Comments

  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    Needs communication, conversation, maybe compromise. Turning it off isn't the whole story. How are the people interacting over this?

  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer
    edited October 2016

    @Steve_B said:
    Needs communication, conversation, maybe compromise. Turning it off isn't the whole story. How are the people interacting over this?

    They are Ok with that. As mentioned above, the concern is, did I make a bad (heavy) kamma with such thought?

  • There's a time for chanting and a time for quiet. And I've never heard of an "electronic chanting box". Is that another name for a tape player?

  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @Cinorjer said:
    There's a time for chanting and a time for quiet. And I've never heard of an "electronic chanting box". Is that another name for a tape player?

    Tape player without a tape.
    Example:
    https://4.imimg.com/data4/BJ/WW/MY-1035243/chanting-box-250x250.jpg

  • @NB1100 said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    There's a time for chanting and a time for quiet. And I've never heard of an "electronic chanting box". Is that another name for a tape player?

    Tape player without a tape.
    Example:
    https://4.imimg.com/data4/BJ/WW/MY-1035243/chanting-box-250x250.jpg

    The Lotus Sutra on loop? After a while that would drive me crazy. It reminds me of when I used to visit my Grandmother. She'd have a radio on top of the fridge always tuned to a Christian station that gave nonstop sermons. To her, it was background noise. I couldn't take more than an hour or so and I'd be gritting my teeth.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @NB1100 said:

    @Steve_B said:
    Needs communication, conversation, maybe compromise. Turning it off isn't the whole story. How are the people interacting over this?

    They are Ok with that. As mentioned above, the concern is, did I make a bad (heavy) kamma with such thought?

    No. You had Right Intention, I perceive no issue with that.....

    But nobody, in truth, can actually predict the outcome of anyone else's Karma. Frankly, it's an act that is too trivial to give much attention to. Better would be to focus on how you directly interact with other Beings and make that constructive and mindful engagement.

  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @federica said:

    @NB1100 said:

    @Steve_B said:
    Needs communication, conversation, maybe compromise. Turning it off isn't the whole story. How are the people interacting over this?

    They are Ok with that. As mentioned above, the concern is, did I make a bad (heavy) kamma with such thought?

    No. You had Right Intention, I perceive no issue with that.....

    But nobody, in truth, can actually predict the outcome of anyone else's Karma. Frankly, it's an act that is too trivial to give much attention to. Better would be to focus on how you directly interact with other Beings and make that constructive and mindful engagement.

    Can you elaborate "Right Intention"?
    The thought prior turning it off is "This is noisy", is this what you mean by wholesome intention? Thanks.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2016

    "This is noisy", was perception.
    How to improve state of Mindfulness and Concentration?
    Remove object of perception.
    Right Intention.
    This is confirmed by "They are ok with that".

    Your Intention and subsequent action harmed nobody.
    ergo, it was skilful.

    David
  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @federica said:
    "This is noisy", was perception.
    How to improve state of Mindfulness and Concentration?
    Remove object of perception.
    Right Intention.
    This is confirmed by "They are ok with that".

    Your Intention and subsequent action harmed nobody.
    ergo, it was skilful.

    It indeed didn't harm anyone, that thought wasn't directed to anyone but the Sutra, something we honor. I think one should have positive state of mind when one hears/listens to the Sutra.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @NB1100 said:

    @federica said:
    "This is noisy", was perception.
    How to improve state of Mindfulness and Concentration?
    Remove object of perception.
    Right Intention.
    This is confirmed by "They are ok with that".

    Your Intention and subsequent action harmed nobody.
    ergo, it was skilful.

    It indeed didn't harm anyone, that thought wasn't directed to anyone but the Sutra, something we honor. I think one should have positive state of mind when one hears/listens to the Sutra.

    If the Sutra could have feelings would it wish to become a distraction to the present moment?

    lobster
  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @David said:

    @NB1100 said:

    @federica said:
    "This is noisy", was perception.
    How to improve state of Mindfulness and Concentration?
    Remove object of perception.
    Right Intention.
    This is confirmed by "They are ok with that".

    Your Intention and subsequent action harmed nobody.
    ergo, it was skilful.

    It indeed didn't harm anyone, that thought wasn't directed to anyone but the Sutra, something we honor. I think one should have positive state of mind when one hears/listens to the Sutra.

    If the Sutra could have feelings would it wish to become a distraction to the present moment?

    Sutra may not want to distract anyone but the doer's intention is I think a different thing. @federica mentioned about Right Intention in order to improve Mindfulness and Concentration but Right Intention I think is Intention does not accompanied by "dislike". Is that right?

    Cinorjer
  • These sorts of concerns always take me back to when I started trying to follow the Dharma. I'd also tie my mind into knots trying to decide if every action I took was good or bad karma, selfish or clinging and maybe wrong, etc. I think the biggest appeal that Zen gave me was first letting me know my problem has a name. "Checking". And it has a solution. "Clear mind, clear situation, clear response."

    You have to concentrate, it's a home not a temple, and the noise is making that hard. Sutra, singing, belching contest, no matter. It's noise. So turn it off for a while and politely explain to anyone listening you need quiet for a while to concentrate. Situation handled. No good or bad karma. Just clear mind and situation.

    federicalobster
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @NB1100 said:

    @David said:

    @NB1100 said:

    @federica said:
    "This is noisy", was perception.
    How to improve state of Mindfulness and Concentration?
    Remove object of perception.
    Right Intention.
    This is confirmed by "They are ok with that".

    Your Intention and subsequent action harmed nobody.
    ergo, it was skilful.

    It indeed didn't harm anyone, that thought wasn't directed to anyone but the Sutra, something we honor. I think one should have positive state of mind when one hears/listens to the Sutra.

    If the Sutra could have feelings would it wish to become a distraction to the present moment?

    Sutra may not want to distract anyone but the doer's intention is I think a different thing. @federica mentioned about Right Intention in order to improve Mindfulness and Concentration but Right Intention I think is Intention does not accompanied by "dislike". Is that right?

    I don't know. I would say Right Intention would be that which is most conducive to Right Mindfulness.

    Everything beneficial has a time and place. We can over dose on water.

    federicaCinorjer
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Cinorjer said:
    These sorts of concerns always take me back to when I started trying to follow the Dharma. I'd also tie my mind into knots trying to decide if every action I took was good or bad karma, selfish or clinging and maybe wrong, etc. I think the biggest appeal that Zen gave me was first letting me know my problem has a name. "Checking". And it has a solution. "Clear mind, clear situation, clear response."

    You have to concentrate, it's a home not a temple, and the noise is making that hard. Sutra, singing, belching contest, no matter. It's noise. So turn it off for a while and politely explain to anyone listening you need quiet for a while to concentrate. Situation handled. No good or bad karma. Just clear mind and situation.

    @David said:...I don't know. I would say Right Intention would be that which is most conducive to Right Mindfulness.

    Everything beneficial has a time and place. We can over dose on water.

    I think basically, @NB1100 what the guys are maybe trying to say here, is don't over-sweat things. Practice is not necessarily fruitful, productive or skilful if you focus on the minutiae and microscopic events which go to make up a day and the events therein.
    It's almost like one day you'll ask "I had a pair of blue socks to wear, and a pair of red socks, and I chose the red pair, should I have done differently? How will this affect my Karma?"

    I would say "He who deliberates everything before taking each step, will find he spends his entire life on one leg."

    it may be better to focus less on the mechanical, un-human, non-sentient interactions, and look more to the simpler way of conducting yourself. The 8Fold path is to do with people, not inanimate objects with no thought-process, feelings, or opinions of their own.
    So you turned the chant-box off. I assure you, there was no offence intended and I am 100% certain, none taken.

    Cinorjerlobster
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I think listening to the sutra on loop is a shortcut, a beginners aid to maintaining one's concentration on the path. Developing mindfulness in silence is slightly more advanced but a necessary step - after all how are you going to learn your mind if you can't hear it - and so creating silence at the right time is necessary to advancement. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

    lobster
  • In order to get into the hell realms, (lobster karmic picnics) I regularly have to be very naughty ...

    In a similar way to get into the Pureland mindset, do good. Be kind. Job done ...

    and now back to chanting sutras (done in some hell realms to torture Christians) :silenced:

  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @federica said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    These sorts of concerns always take me back to when I started trying to follow the Dharma. I'd also tie my mind into knots trying to decide if every action I took was good or bad karma, selfish or clinging and maybe wrong, etc. I think the biggest appeal that Zen gave me was first letting me know my problem has a name. "Checking". And it has a solution. "Clear mind, clear situation, clear response."

    You have to concentrate, it's a home not a temple, and the noise is making that hard. Sutra, singing, belching contest, no matter. It's noise. So turn it off for a while and politely explain to anyone listening you need quiet for a while to concentrate. Situation handled. No good or bad karma. Just clear mind and situation.

    @David said:...I don't know. I would say Right Intention would be that which is most conducive to Right Mindfulness.

    Everything beneficial has a time and place. We can over dose on water.

    I think basically, @NB1100 what the guys are maybe trying to say here, is don't over-sweat things. Practice is not necessarily fruitful, productive or skilful if you focus on the minutiae and microscopic events which go to make up a day and the events therein.
    It's almost like one day you'll ask "I had a pair of blue socks to wear, and a pair of red socks, and I chose the red pair, should I have done differently? How will this affect my Karma?"

    I would say "He who deliberates everything before taking each step, will find he spends his entire life on one leg."

    it may be better to focus less on the mechanical, un-human, non-sentient interactions, and look more to the simpler way of conducting yourself. The 8Fold path is to do with people, not inanimate objects with no thought-process, feelings, or opinions of their own.
    So you turned the chant-box off. I assure you, there was no offence intended and I am 100% certain, none taken.

    Thanks for your reply.

    But in AN 3.89 Buddha says:
    He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html

    How can one experiences less stress when we practice and follow Buddha's advice?

    I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2016

    @NB1100 said: Thanks for your reply.

    But in AN 3.89 Buddha says:
    He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html

    How can one experiences less stress when we practice and follow Buddha's advice?

    I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

    But there was no 'slightest fault!' You are reading too much into this. A transgression, or fault is something that contravenes or does not uphold the 8fold path (with regard to our personal attitude and that towards other PEOPLE) or something that is unskilful regarding the Five Precepts.

    Furthermore, the above recommendation from the Buddha is for those undertaking 'The training rules'. In other words - the ordained. Monks.

    Please quit splitting hairs. Has it no occurred to you that this is an aspect of unskilful practice in itself?

    "Now what do you think, Sona. Before, when you were a house-dweller, were you skilled at playing the vina?"

    "Yes, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too taut, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "No, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too loose, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "No, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned[1] to be right on pitch, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "Yes, lord."

    "In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune[2]the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."

    WalkerFosdick
  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @Cinorjer said:
    These sorts of concerns always take me back to when I started trying to follow the Dharma. I'd also tie my mind into knots trying to decide if every action I took was good or bad karma, selfish or clinging and maybe wrong, etc. I think the biggest appeal that Zen gave me was first letting me know my problem has a name. "Checking". And it has a solution. "Clear mind, clear situation, clear response."

    You have to concentrate, it's a home not a temple, and the noise is making that hard. Sutra, singing, belching contest, no matter. It's noise. So turn it off for a while and politely explain to anyone listening you need quiet for a while to concentrate. Situation handled. No good or bad karma. Just clear mind and situation.

    Being mindful in everything we do is the right thing to do, is it not?
    When we are mindful in every action, is it not natural for us to recognize our fault?

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @NB1100 said: Being mindful in everything we do is the right thing to do, is it not?
    When we are mindful in every action, is it not natural for us to recognize our fault?

    Yes. But it is not skilful to berate ourselves. Observe. Perceive. Evaluate. Acknowledge. Let go.

    Simplify.

    Steve_BFosdick
  • NB1100NB1100 Explorer

    @federica said:

    @NB1100 said: Thanks for your reply.

    But in AN 3.89 Buddha says:
    He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html

    How can one experiences less stress when we practice and follow Buddha's advice?

    I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

    But there was no 'slightest fault!' You are reading too much into this. A transgression, or fault is something that contravenes or does not uphold the 8fold path (with regard to our personal attitude and that towards other PEOPLE) or something that is unskilful regarding the Five Precepts.

    Furthermore, the above recommendation from the Buddha is for those undertaking 'The training rules'. In other words - the ordained. Monks.

    Please quit splitting hairs. Has it no occurred to you that this is an aspect of unskilful practice in itself?

    "Now what do you think, Sona. Before, when you were a house-dweller, were you skilled at playing the vina?"

    "Yes, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too taut, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "No, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too loose, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "No, lord."

    "And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned[1] to be right on pitch, was your vina in tune & playable?"

    "Yes, lord."

    "In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune[2]the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."

    But I think mindfulness will naturally discover both unwholesome and wholesome action we don't normally pay attention to, otherwise what is the purpose of practicing awareness? I can't really find a reason I did nothing wrong. @Cinorjer said all noise is noise but when you have "dislike" towards the noise of Sutra, does it really make no difference whatsoever, why?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2016

    I'm sorry, but you're getting tiresome. If you're happy over-compensating that's fine for you. I have tried to point out that you are over thinking matters and that your meticulousness is excessive and extreme.
    Practise as you will. I'm done arguing with a wall.

  • namarupanamarupa Veteran
    edited October 2016

    Found this on fb and thought it might be related and funny.

  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    Not all questions need answers. Having re-read this thread, I'm thinking this may be one of those questions. Is angrily shutting off the noise bad karma? Rather than answer this question (which anyway we've collectively demonstrated we're not very good at), perhaps we should use the question to ponder mindfulness itself. I think it comes down to this:

    @NB1100 said, in part, :

    I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

    The real art is not in answering the question, it is in being perceptive enough to ask it.

  • @NB1100 said:

    @federica said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    These sorts of concerns always take me back to when I started trying to follow the Dharma. I'd also tie my mind into knots trying to decide if every action I took was good or bad karma, selfish or clinging and maybe wrong, etc. I think the biggest appeal that Zen gave me was first letting me know my problem has a name. "Checking". And it has a solution. "Clear mind, clear situation, clear response."

    You have to concentrate, it's a home not a temple, and the noise is making that hard. Sutra, singing, belching contest, no matter. It's noise. So turn it off for a while and politely explain to anyone listening you need quiet for a while to concentrate. Situation handled. No good or bad karma. Just clear mind and situation.

    @David said:...I don't know. I would say Right Intention would be that which is most conducive to Right Mindfulness.

    Everything beneficial has a time and place. We can over dose on water.

    I think basically, @NB1100 what the guys are maybe trying to say here, is don't over-sweat things. Practice is not necessarily fruitful, productive or skilful if you focus on the minutiae and microscopic events which go to make up a day and the events therein.
    It's almost like one day you'll ask "I had a pair of blue socks to wear, and a pair of red socks, and I chose the red pair, should I have done differently? How will this affect my Karma?"

    I would say "He who deliberates everything before taking each step, will find he spends his entire life on one leg."

    it may be better to focus less on the mechanical, un-human, non-sentient interactions, and look more to the simpler way of conducting yourself. The 8Fold path is to do with people, not inanimate objects with no thought-process, feelings, or opinions of their own.
    So you turned the chant-box off. I assure you, there was no offence intended and I am 100% certain, none taken.

    Thanks for your reply.

    But in AN 3.89 Buddha says:
    He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html

    How can one experiences less stress when we practice and follow Buddha's advice?

    I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

    Yes, there is a Buddhist practice for OCD sufferers. You can't take one passage out of the thousands of Sutras and say that is all you need. Tell me something. Or even just ask yourself. Is worrying about a decision you needed to make many days ago helping or hindering your practice?

  • @NB1100 said:> I also think the more mindful we are the more unwholesome deeds we uncover.

    That is partly the point of being mindful, it enables us to act more skillfully.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    Being mindful in everything we do is the right thing to do, is it not?

    @NB1100 -- I wonder what happens -- literally, not figuratively -- to all the much-praised glories of "mindfulness" in the moment of an actual-factual sneeze. I'd say so-called "mindfulness" goes out the window. And if this is the case, does it make a sneeze somehow "wrong?"

    How can a sneeze be wrong, for heaven's sake?!

    Talk about a nose-picker of a topic. :)

    lobster
  • ^^... Bless you!

    ting, ting, ting ... extra Buddha pin ball karma points <3 <3 <3

    Soon will go up a level o:)

  • If this was me, I most likely would be asking myself why it made me angry to begin with. I think that would be of more value. At least to my way of thinking.

    Other than that, forgive yourself and move on.

  • @genkaku said: How can a sneeze be wrong, for heaven's sake?!

    A sneeze spread germs and is not something an English gentleman would do, at least not in polite company. :p

    lobster
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited October 2016

    Did you know it's terribly difficult for a paraplegic to sneeze or cough? Their brains can't tell the muscles to make the movement anymore, so nurses help them do it by violently squeezing their diaphragm. Ribs have been known to be broken in this operation!

    Just, ya know, fyi... be grateful for your sneezes and coughs while you 'ave 'em.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @NB1100 said:

    As mentioned above, the concern is, did I make a bad (heavy) kamma with such thought?

    It would seem that you are already experiencing the karmic effect right now, just as we all experience the karmic consequences of our "Thoughts" "Words" & "Deeds" ...

    It reminds me of

    "If you fear you shall suffer...You already suffer what you fear!"

    ~Michel de Montaigne~

    lobsterRichdawson
Sign In or Register to comment.