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Drugees

lobsterlobster Veteran
edited May 8 in Diet & Habits

As we all know medical drugs can turn you into a hippy, ask Cary Grant.
https://www.seeker.com/culture/75-years-after-first-lsd-trip-psychedelic-science-is-making-a-comeback

Some of us self medicate, caffeine, coke and cigs for energy. Alcohol, 'erb, psychedelics for mind alteration and binging. Exercise, chocolate, sex and drugs and rock and roll for stilling the beast.

As dharma addicts are our choices more wholesome?
http://www.dharmapunx.com

Personally I feel they are a steep in the right stupor ...
http://intentblog.com/dharma-drug-buddhism-psychoactive-agent/

person

Comments

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited May 8

    It seems to me that a lot of these drugs can open doors within the consciousness. They can give you a glimpse but not much more than that. It can still be valuable and life changing, and is probably good for the treatment of depression.

    However I have - and will continue to - steer well clear. The brain and the body can be quite sensitive instruments, and to have them functioning in good condition is a blessing which one should not lightly mess with.

    I found this in the original article interesting though:

    With funding from the psychedelic-friendly Beckley Foundation, Carhart-Harris has also done some of the first detailed brain scans of individuals on LSD and psilocybin. Functional MRI scans and magnetoencephalography reveal that psychedelics suppress the activity of something called the Default Mode Network, described as the “conductor” of the brain’s symphony of synapses. Carhart-Harris theorizes that the quieting of the Default Mode Network leads to the classic psychedelic experience of ego dissolution and a feeling of oneness with the universe.

  • VanilliVanilli Veteran
    edited May 8

    Everyone is addicted to something. The bigger the pain, the bigger the escape. Addiction is simply trying to fill the void of emptiness, loneliness, fear, depression, boredom - whatever that pit is inside you. If you have a history filled with a lot of darkness the things that work for other people don't work for you. The vast majority of people with a chemical drug addiction have a history of trauma or severe mental illness (often both). If you use Dharma to escape and run from yourself, that you're always using it to fill the void. We should try to approach life with self awareness and see if we are ever really facing up to ourselves and our demons and the pain inside us. Do we know how to deal? Learning to be 'human' is learning how to face that and deal with that. To stop running. Maybe that's what enlightenment is. Being free of the addiction to run, run, run that we are all so caught up in all the time. In fact, this addiction to running is probably the main reason so many people are attracted to meditation in the first place - they don't want to deal with 'themselves' and the pain inherent in that, they want to lose themselves in the soft, warm cloud of meditation. Obviously, that's not what it is for.

    I've dabbled with this world but personally I don't think they lead anywhere, they are showing you what is already there. You can come to such realisations without relying on chemicals. I do think in some people they can push some people's evolution forward. I know that mushrooms have been helpful for depression and MDMA for PTSD. I am curious about using them to help treat mental illness but I also think it is a slippery slope. I like the idea of using chemicals to foster growth, evolution and healing but I do worry that these things may also make people worse. But the studies are promising.

    I'm often irritated by people who are judgmental of drug addicts. I used to work with a homeless outreach group and there was a lot of judgement about it. If you had had the lives these people had maybe you'd be addicted to drugs too. And it's hypocritical because we are all addicted to something. One person, who was super judgemental of the drug taking on the streets, suffered from a life-threatening lung disease and was still smoking. Many people are happy to bury their heads in the sand about their own issues while pointing the finger at others.

    lobsterVastmind
  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    traveller, i like your grown attitude about coffe and smokes.you , me both....our karma to bear.

  • TravellerTraveller East Midlands UK Veteran
    edited May 8

    The thing is @Tsultrim is that the people you mention above are all caught up in the sakkaya-ditthi. Disgust is just a condition arising in the mind and one has to have some Metta/Maitri for them and the same towards ones own feelings of disgust - as I put it radical none judgemental acceptance, doesn't mean we have to like them though.

    As I said on here ages ago after a particularly good session of Metta Bhavana - realising one's own suffering one realises the suffering of others and compassion naturally arises. While I practice Theravada I've studied some Zen and lean towards a more Mahayana view of the universe - all these beings have Buddha nature. There are stories of redemption in Buddhist history take Angulimala as an example he was a serial killer and didn't Milarepa murder people by sorcery.

    Just my two pence on the subject though. YMMV.

    I was a thief and drug dealer in my time, I regret it but I don't hold onto the guilt that would just create more suffering. It's my karma and i have to live with it. If the legends are to be believed Shakyamuni went to hell many times on his journey to master the perfections, I don't fear it if that is the result of my actions, I'm sworn to become the Buddha of one age or another and I take that vow again now.

    lobsterperson
  • TsultrimTsultrim Hawaii Veteran
    edited May 9

    You're point is well taken, @Traveller. We should be open to the suffering of others, no matter what their occupation. Nevertheless the emotions of disgust and anger arise when i think of the human misery caused by pedophiles,human traffickers, and yes drug pushers.

    Emotions are empty as is everything else and the most compassionate approach we can have towards our self is to see them as such and watch them ( without a watcher) come and go. The emotion i had came i expressed it and moved on.

    One doesn't have to have any approach toward the occurrences of mind. Applying metta or any other nostrum is an addition that only causes more preoccupation with what has arisen, clouding the mind we wish to experience. If metta arises naturally and is not applied , good, it is empty and comes and goes as well.

    I agree with much of your post. Maybe we should talk some more. =)

    Traveller
  • TravellerTraveller East Midlands UK Veteran

    @Tsultrim, I would love too, your an interesting fellow. I've always said that everyone deserves a shot at redemption. Take a look of some of @Vajraheart's posts, he moved on from here, he was a Dzogchenpa and the light and wisdom that used to pour out of his posts was amazing. He'd been a criminal and druggie in his time. He said to me I had a clear wish to realise Buddha-Dharma and that would create the karmic circumstances for it to happen. It took me a few years of meditation to get over my addiction to drink, drugs and sex but it eventually happened almost over night. I couldn't hold down the Sila but I kept plugging away at the meditation angle, the eight fold path is a wheel, push on anyone of the spokes and eventually it will start turning.

    lobsterShoshinperson
  • TsultrimTsultrim Hawaii Veteran

    I looked up @ Vajraheart. Let's talk a bit, no pressure, see where it goes or doesn't go.
    Are you still meditating, if i might ask? And if so what kind of meditation do you do?
    In every case don't answer if you don't want to.
    Ask me questions as well, and i'll answer those that are appropriate for this forum.

                    Compassion is what we are
                    Stripped of the confusion that bedevils us.
                    We're not sinners just deluded
                    About our true nature and the world's.
                    Why must we be that way i don't know 
                    But i know the solution and that's enough.    
                    We are fragile creatures with breakable hearts
                    And there is no one to help us, not even Buddha.
                    The journey is punishing and we must do it alone.
                    May we have the strength to persevere
                    The courage to be who we really are or aren't
                    And the insight to bring them together for this suffering world.
    
    Traveller
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Drugees

    When it comes to drug use...each to their own.... after all karma is funny in a peculiar kinda way...

    Karmic habitual patterns recurring..desiring for things to be as they were before...That's addiction for ya...

    One can't redo what's already been done ...One can only do what needs doing NOW...

    Nowadays when it comes to psychedelic drugs, my drug of choice is the cushion it's inexpensive, all it cost is time and that's relevant ...and its psychedelic powers are mind blowing, but at the same time it has a cushioning effect on the mind ....

    Things are not quite what they seem when wisdom is allowed to penetrate the dream

    Drugs or no drugs .... we're all psychosurfing Psychonauts ... :)

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited May 9

    This subject ALWAYS causes tension and/or fiery "debate"...... 🙄🙄

    Yes, I'm a hypocrite and back on here. But not as regularly

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    the eight fold path is a wheel, push on anyone of the spokes and eventually it will start turning.

    Well said.
    A big part for some of us at the centre of our karmic push is finding the benefits/bless-on/less-on/lesson of our experience. Some of us never do.

    I'm sworn to become the Buddha of one age or another and I take that vow again now.

    Go Buddha! <3

    person
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Tsultrim said:
    some chemicals in susceptible users lead to permanent psychosis. Just knowing that should be enough. Then there are the perils of addiction and the addicts life: over dosage, heart valve infection, hepatitis C (there is a pandemic of it in iv drug users right now.) Crime and incarceration or violent death to name a few.

    This is the primary reason I’ve never been interested in recreational drugs in my youth. Strangely now in my later life I’m a little more tempted by the psychedelics only, because they are not very addictive and can result in interesting experiences.

    In part I think the whole drug culture is fuelled by the medical culture, doctors seem to have very much taken the stance that in order to fix something with a person they should prescribe a course of pills. Whereas in fact often they should be prescribing exercise, or a change in diet. But pills seem to have taken an important role in society, from over-the-counter painkillers against a headache, to contraceptives, to prescription medication.

    Is it any wonder that illegal feel-good pills are also selling in droves? Ecstasy is very common at music events.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 9

    The vast majority of training for Doctors today either entirely excludes dietary schooling, or pays very scant and superficial attention to it. A truly damning indictment of modern western medicine, particularly as it is abundantly evident that a major proportion of non-disease ailments, afflictions and conditions can be cured, improved or remedied to a significant degree, by the patient altering their dietary lifestyle for the better. Even some diseases can be greatly improved. One could argue that some clinical afflictions are even CAUSED by poor diet. So, an omission of such an important part of treatment, in a Doctor's qualification, is nothing short of criminal.

    Sugar - is an addictive substance. There is debate as to whether it IS in fact, more addictive than heroin or cocaine. Suffice to say it is extremely damaging to health in excess, yet is freely available, distributed and added abundantly to foodstuffs to make them more appealing to young and old alike. SIMPLE Carbohydrates, in my opinion, are equally noxious, and should be treated with the same contempt.

    lobsterKeromeVastmindKundo
  • TravellerTraveller East Midlands UK Veteran
    edited May 9

    @Tsultrim, I'm very much into Thai Forest Tradition, mainly the teachings of Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho. As for meditation I meditate for two to three hours a day in thirty minute to one hour sessions. I like Ajahn Sumedho's teachings on resting in awareness, I use the breath as anchor and try to remain open and aware, even though "I" am thinking and feeling that sense of awareness isn't. it's open spacious, permanently calm and empty of self. I try no to grasp and when I do I try and let go.

    Funny I just tried to find a quote from the Buddha on meditation like space and couldn't find it. I did however find a couple of videos from Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche on the subject that I'll have to watch later. I've read some of his books and watched his videos and was impressed by how he cured himself of panic disorder through meditation.

    As for drugs I started smoking Marijuana as self medication for depression and it led me into other drugs via the rave scene in Britain in the 1990's I wish I'd never started. I was diagnosed with adjustment disorder with severe symptoms of depression as a reaction to my Schizophrenia diagnosis, I haven't taken anti-depressants for several years which I believe is a result of my meditation practice, I still take the Schizophrenia medication however and have no plans to give it up.

    Kundo
  • TsultrimTsultrim Hawaii Veteran

    @Traveller good morning from Hawaii. The practice you do and the time dedicated to it seem very good. It's wonderful that you have a teacher, practice faithfully and read the Dharma. Incidentally, Minygur Rinpoche is the son of Tulku Urgyen, who was a well respected teacher and confidant of the 16th Karmapa. You may want to look into Tulku Urgyen's writings, he was noted for his pointing out instructions on the true nature of Mind.
    We all have karma and you have your share. It's great the schizophrenia medicine helps you and allows you to practice the Dharma. I believe it was you who advised against prolonged practices with certain mental problems. Over the years i have seen people with mental disorders decompensate as a result of prolonged meditation and i'm glad it's common knowledge now.
    Well, here we are or aren't. =)

  • TsultrimTsultrim Hawaii Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    @Tsultrim said:
    some chemicals in susceptible users lead to permanent psychosis. Just knowing that should be enough. Then there are the perils of addiction and the addicts life: over dosage, heart valve infection, hepatitis C (there is a pandemic of it in iv drug users right now.) Crime and incarceration or violent death to name a few.

    This is the primary reason I’ve never been interested in recreational drugs in my youth. Strangely now in my later life I’m a little more tempted by the psychedelics only, because they are not very addictive and can result in interesting experiences.

    In part I think the whole drug culture is fuelled by the medical culture, doctors seem to have very much taken the stance that in order to fix something with a person they should prescribe a course of pills. Whereas in fact often they should be prescribing exercise, or a change in diet. But pills seem to have taken an important role in society, from over-the-counter painkillers against a headache, to contraceptives, to prescription medication.

    Is it any wonder that illegal feel-good pills are also selling in droves? Ecstasy is very common at music events.

    Hi @Kerome, there are unscrupulous doctors as in any endeavor and they have built their practices on prescribing pain killers like Oxycontin. When a patient becomes drug dependent they are never going to leave the prescribing physician. There are other factors, as well, like the proliferation of pain clinics in the US that created many drug dependent people as well as the failed orthopedic and neurosurgical surgeries that then required narcotics.

    At one time in the US there was a successful lobby for treating pain and patients who didn't require narcotics got them because doctors feared backlash from the pain lobby. It's a long complicated story, and a sad one. Now people look at society and say, "Hey, there's too many narcotics users, we need to do something",so their doctors feel the pressure to cut them off and abandon them to withdrawal and pain that forces them to turn to street suppliers.

    Humans for a very long time have used drugs, and they are not going to stop now. There are no permanent solutions in the relative world. =)

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Tsultrim said:

    Hi Kerome, there are unscrupulous doctors as in any endeavor and they have built their practices on prescribing pain killers like Oxycontin. When a patient becomes drug dependent they are never going to leave the prescribing physician. There are other factors, as well, like the proliferation of pain clinics in the US that created many drug dependent people as well as the failed orthopedic and neurosurgical surgeries that then required narcotics.

    At one time in the US there was a successful lobby for treating pain and patients who didn't require narcotics got them because doctors feared backlash from the pain lobby. It's a long complicated story, and a sad one. Now people look at society and say, "Hey, there's too many narcotics users, we need to do something",so their doctors feel the pressure to cut them off and abandon them to withdrawal and pain that forces them to turn to street suppliers.

    Before I was diagnosed with my illness, I became addicted to codeine to deal with the constant migraines I was suffering. The doctors had no problem prescribing them until one GP suggested investigating the root cause rather than masking the pain. This was in week 9 of one episode of a continuous migraine that had kept me housebound. I had a CT scan, followed by MRI's and neurologist visits. Guess what was the first thing I was told? Stop taking codeine because it causes rebound headaches when used too much. No GP had felt it necessary to tell me that. I had to go cold turkey and suffer horrendous withdrawal on top of migraines for two months. I wanted to die - not because I was suicidal at all, I just wanted the pain to stop.

    These days, after years of research and trialling medication and treatments, I manage my migraines with minimal medication and daily vitamin B2 and B6 tablets. The neurologist was at first skeptical but now admits I know my condition perhaps better than him (not that he'd admit that to anyone else but me).

    Humans for a very long time have used drugs, and they are not going to stop now. There are no permanent solutions in the relative world. =)

    I understand that line of thinking, but I disagree it's that black and white.

    🙏🙏🙏

    personlobster
  • namarupanamarupa Veteran

    You can induce a calmness of the mind and body to a medicinal effect with enough meditation practice. It’s actually better for your body than any opioid or drugs, and should be more favorable healthwise in my opinion. Of course being addicted to anything is bad, but this actually helps without any drawbacks as far as know.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    Simple carbohydrate is the same thing as 'sugar' as in all simple carbohydrates are sugars. I think it is refined complex carbohydrates that can be bad like white flour has the bran and the germ taken out and that makes it released faster and the liver splits the starch into simple sugars quite fast if no germ or bran to slow the release. It is not a simple sugar but it is not a 'good' starch/sugar.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Jeffrey said:
    Simple carbohydrate is the same thing as 'sugar' as in all simple carbohydrates are sugars. I think it is refined complex carbohydrates that can be bad like white flour has the bran and the germ taken out and that makes it released faster and the liver splits the starch into simple sugars quite fast if no germ or bran to slow the release. It is not a simple sugar but it is not a 'good' starch/sugar.

    Yes, @Jeffrey, I get that, but we're talking chemistry now. I was merely differentiating between a loaf of bread/5kg of pasta/2lbs of mashed potato, and that white granular superabundant stuff we saturate fizzy drinks with. I get the starch/sugars bit, I was really talking more about foodstuffs, rather than their compositions.... :)

    Thank you though, I appreciate it.

    Jeffrey
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    As dharma addicts are our choices more wholesome?

    We are all Karma addicts...It seems to be the drug of choice...Or should I say we had no choice up until now :)

    Socair
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran

    Having come of age during the hippie era, drugs flowed around me like wind at the seashore.
    But, having been taught to meditate as a child by my mother, I had experience with good meditations. And not a single drug ever came CLOSE to a good meditation. Furthermore, the experience of drugs was ... I don't the words ... heavy? Muddy? ... as opposed to the brilliant clarity of a good meditation. Drugs weren't even in the same ballpark, let alone in the seat next to me.

    federicalobsterVastmind
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Well said @FoibleFull

    The words that you may be looking for ... clouded, dulled, distorted, deluded, impeded ...

    Excessive ascetic practice may also alter and impede the brilliant clarity you mention.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @lobster said:

    As we all know medical drugs can turn you into a hippy, ask Cary Grant.
    https://www.seeker.com/culture/75-years-after-first-lsd-trip-psychedelic-science-is-making-a-comeback

    For the right person psychedelic drugs could work for depression (it did seem to do the trick for myself) but many have hurt themselves also.

    We would be hard pressed to find a tradition encouraging their use but their use has encouraged many to delve into Buddhism.

    Some of us self medicate, caffeine, coke and cigs for energy. Alcohol, 'erb, psychedelics for mind alteration and binging. Exercise, chocolate, sex and drugs and rock and roll for stilling the beast.

    As dharma addicts are our choices more wholesome?
    http://www.dharmapunx.com

    I would think so but still I use cannabis. Not for mind alteration or partying (at least not these past 15 to 20 years) but as a tool and as medication/supplement.

    It's an interesting fact that cannabis can be used as a performance enhancer and it's been a well kept secret for many. That snow boarder from B.C. got his medal taken away and then reinstated when people laughed at the very idea but he knew as did Bruce Lee that cannabis can be used as a tool of focus.

    Having chronic migraines and very loud tinnitus, using cannabis does help me and sometimes I even use it to help my meditation. Those of you that cope with tinnitus know how hard it is to meditate during loud and stressing episodes.

    Personally I feel they are a steep in the right stupor ...
    http://intentblog.com/dharma-drug-buddhism-psychoactive-agent/

    Great article.

    lobster
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    @Tsultrim said:
    some chemicals in susceptible users lead to permanent psychosis. Just knowing that should be enough. Then there are the perils of addiction and the addicts life: over dosage, heart valve infection, hepatitis C (there is a pandemic of it in iv drug users right now.) Crime and incarceration or violent death to name a few.

    This is the primary reason I’ve never been interested in recreational drugs in my youth. Strangely now in my later life I’m a little more tempted by the psychedelics only, because they are not very addictive and can result in interesting experiences.

    Uh Oh, I think someone hijacked your profile and made a thread about meditating with alcohol which is one of the worst ones out there. It kills almost as many as cigarettes do.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Thanks @David

    You make some important points as have others

    • The lethal and toxic nature of legal tobacco and deadly alcohol
    • The potential for medicinal use of cannabis, LSD and meditation addiction
    • Addiction to simple carbs/sugar
    • Addiction to prescription

    This is where the example/inspiration of clean sangha (they are not shaman) is useful and being aware of the wider understanding of addiction offers us self and other empathy and compassion ...

    What would Sid do?
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/lodro-rinzler/a-fresh-take-on-drugs-and_b_854051.html

    Vastmind
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @David said:

    @Kerome said:

    @Tsultrim said:
    some chemicals in susceptible users lead to permanent psychosis. Just knowing that should be enough. Then there are the perils of addiction and the addicts life: over dosage, heart valve infection, hepatitis C (there is a pandemic of it in iv drug users right now.) Crime and incarceration or violent death to name a few.

    This is the primary reason I’ve never been interested in recreational drugs in my youth. Strangely now in my later life I’m a little more tempted by the psychedelics only, because they are not very addictive and can result in interesting experiences.

    Uh Oh, I think someone hijacked your profile and made a thread about meditating with alcohol which is one of the worst ones out there. It kills almost as many as cigarettes do.

    I knew that thread would come back to haunt me ;) For a long time I didn’t consider alcohol a drug, although of course you are right and it is. But drinking with moderation is very embedded in the social culture here, not many people are totally abstinent except when driving.

  • ScottPenScottPen Maryland Veteran

    @federica said:

    Sugar - is an addictive substance. There is debate as to whether it IS in fact, more addictive than heroin or cocaine. Suffice to say it is extremely damaging to health in excess, yet is freely available, distributed and added abundantly to foodstuffs to make them more appealing to young and old alike. SIMPLE Carbohydrates, in my opinion, are equally noxious, and should be treated with the same contempt.

    @federica, I believe you're referring to this article(unfortunately the entire article isn't viewable unless you subscribe). However, this review of the subject refutes the findings of the first article (you can see the whole thing, which is very convenient if an author truly wishes that people actually read it for themselves).

    Among those who think that the data supports the idea that sugar is addictive, how much so may be in debate. However, the notion that it's addictive at all is also being debated by qualified scientific professionals.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that there is a convincing argument otherwise.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 22

    The only convincing argument I can put forward is the alarming and dangerous rise in obesity across many affluent countries, MOST of which - but not all, I grant you - is down to a diet overloaded with simple carbs and sugars. That there, for me, is evidence enough.
    The fact that my husband - who was type II diabetic (I emphasise 'was') has lost around six stone in weight, just by cutting carbs to a bare 100g/day minimum (and I too, lost just over 2 stone) is further evidence that the stuff is both noxious and far too readily-available.

    ETA Sorry @ScottPen that sounded very argumentative. I appreciate your putting forward the opinion and comment you have. Nothing against that - or you - at all. I just sometimes think that research and statistics can fug the issue. At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    And there's an inappropriate idiom if ever there was one!!

    Kundo
  • ScottPenScottPen Maryland Veteran

    @federica said:
    ETA Sorry @ScottPen that sounded very argumentative. I appreciate your putting forward the opinion and comment you have. Nothing against that - or you - at all. I just sometimes think that research and statistics can fug the issue. At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    And there's an inappropriate idiom if ever there was one!!

    No apologies necessary, @federica. There's nothing wrong with having a strong opinion and expressing it as such.

    federicalobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    The medicinal use of psychedelics is explored here:
    https://www.wikitribune.com/story/2018/05/11/health/is-the-war-on-drugs-preventing-a-second-revolution-in-mental-health-treatment/69787/

    Some herbal medicines have mild but notable psychoactive properties. For example tea and coffee as stimulants and appetite suppressants and chamomile as a calmative.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    T'ain't no big t'ing
    To wait for the bell to ring
    T'ain't no big t'ing
    The toll of the bell

    Oh oh catch that buzz
    Love is the drug I'm thinking of
    Oh oh can't you see
    Love is the drug for me

    Think Metta Meditation :)

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