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Non-Vegetarian Buddhists - Lesser Buddhists?

edited May 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Seems that many people think that at one point or another Buddhist should be vegetarians or that otherwise you are not really living in accordance to the Buddhist philosophy?

Personally, I don't like the "needless" killing of animals, but do eat meat, and think that's how it was meant to be in nature. Humans being omnivores etc.

I do like to select "biological" meat, io words products that are not factory-line-food-machines, but allow animals to have more "humanistic" lives before. It's always a bit sad anyhow. Finding biological products is tough at times, and near impossible when you go to resaturants...

Are you "not" a "real" Buddhist if you think this way?
Thanks4your take!
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Comments

  • edited January 2010
    they should use stem cell research to make huge wads of tasty muscle tissue. no sentient being is harmed, and it would be a much more efficient use of resources.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited January 2010
    If you really live by the Buddhist teachings then you should eat so that you can maintain your body enough to practice the Dhamma. However, since the Buddha talked about spreading loving kindness to all beings and if you feel that it is because you eat meat that they kill animals then it makes sense to stop eating meat. Other than that I don't see a real need to be vegetarian. Craving for vegetarian foods is similarly unwholesome as craving for meat. At the end of the day both are craving ;)
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    The Buddha ate meat, not to beat a dead horse...

    Palzang
  • edited January 2010
    However, since the Buddha talked about spreading loving kindness to all beings and if you feel that it is because you eat meat that they kill animals then it makes sense to stop eating meat.
    Good point. I don't believe that, because I don't eat HUGE AMOUNTS of meat and also I am willing to pay more for biological food in order to minimize any needless suffering of animals.

    I just happen to believe it is in accordance to nature to be omnivores (respecting all vegetarians though, I admire you certainly for your beliefs).
    Craving for vegetarian foods is similarly unwholesome as craving for meat.
    I don't think vegetarians "crave" tofu etc. it's just that they need to resort to other foods. Don't u agree?
    The Buddha ate meat, not to beat a dead horse...
    Palzang
    Yes, BUT ONLY, because he had no choice right? I hear that sooo often, Buddhists eat meat, because they depend on what is "given to them" so if that's meat...
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Of course he had a choice.

    Palzang
  • edited January 2010
    How is that, some Buddhist don't have a choice, if they want to eat, don't they have to accept what is given to them/comes on their way?
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Yes, those who go around with their alms bowls eat whatever is given to them. However, the Buddha was the one who created that system for the benefit of the monks so that they would develop renunciation and nonattachment, but since he created the system, he certainly did have a choice in the matter, right?

    I would also point out that vegetarian or no, sentient beings die. You can't live without the deaths of other sentient beings. It is important to acknowledge that and also to develop equanimity, that one life form isn't more valuable than another because all have the exact same Buddhanature. In my practice, one prays to make a connection with whatever sentient beings one has caused to be killed through eating or driving your car or whatever, and that through this connection, some day those beings will be liberated.

    Palzang
  • edited January 2010
    In my practice, one prays to make a connection with whatever sentient beings one has caused to be killed through eating or driving your car or whatever, and that through this connection, some day those beings will be liberated.
    So I should pray before I eat dinner then ? Hope this does not sound silly ...? Not that it does to me, but I did think that praying would a more Christian thing to do? Thanks as always !!
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Hank777 wrote: »
    I don't think vegetarians "crave" tofu etc. it's just that they need to resort to other foods. Don't u agree?

    You missed my point. My point is whether you eat meat or not if you still pick and choose your food so that it's the best, the freshest, the healthiest, the tastiest then once again it is an indulgence which is craving.
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  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited January 2010
    So I should pray before I eat dinner then ? Hope this does not sound silly ...? Not that it does to me, but I did think that praying would a more Christian thing to do? Thanks as always !!

    Saying a few words of gratitude and well wishes to all the sentient beings that suffered in any way to bring your meal to you may not make a difference to the dead animal, but it is certainly good for your own practice if it's done with sincerity. :)
    I don't think vegetarians "crave" tofu etc. it's just that they need to resort to other foods. Don't u agree?

    :lol: I'm not vegetarian but love a lot of vegetarian meals. There's plenty I prefer to meat dishes. If there're people who crave fermented beans then there're people who crave tofu. If it's prepared properly, it's actually very good. And craving is craving. There are very few people who eat without any craving, who willingly eat purely for sustenance.

    There is also clinging to the idea that eating as a veg makes one a "superior Buddhist." There're people who refuse to eat meat even if it's offered to them, that would otherwise be thrown away and wasted, and this too is clinging. A path that leads to the end of all clinging is what the Buddha taught.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Hank777 wrote: »
    So I should pray before I eat dinner then ? Hope this does not sound silly ...? Not that it does to me, but I did think that praying would a more Christian thing to do? Thanks as always !!

    Prayer in Buddhism does not = prayer in Christianity. You're not praying to some external deity, but more like setting the intention. It's being mindful and turning your attention to the matter at hand rather than just eating robotically and thoughtlessly (or whatever else it is that you're doing). It is also good mind training to pray before eating to dedicate the nutrition you are receiving to the benefit of all sentient beings, rather than just adding a little more girth to your waist! :p We are taught that our lives should be prayer without ceasing, that is, every action should be for the benefit of all beings rather than just feathering our own worthless nest.

    Palzang
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    If there're people who crave fermented beans then there're people who crave tofu.

    Actually natto is very good for you (as disgusting as it might smell). It contains an enzyme called nattokinase which acts like coumadin to dissolve any blood clots or thrombi you might have wandering your blood vessels looking for a stroke or a heart attack to cause without any of the nasty side effects (coumadin, btw, is also called warfarin, a rat poison).

    Palzang
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited January 2010
    And craving is craving. There are very few people who eat without any craving, who willingly eat purely for sustenance.

    Oh yes but at least we as Buddhists should try to minimize on this indulgence don't you think? I think we crave for food way too much :lol:
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  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited January 2010
    I was just saying that going vegetarian doesn't neccessarily mean you're any closer to Nibbana or a "better Buddhist." There is very often attachment/clinging still, oftentimes more so than with meat-eaters. :eek: And clinging is clinging. And Buddhism is about eradicating clinging.
  • Quiet_witnessQuiet_witness Veteran
    edited January 2010
    they should use stem cell research to make huge wads of tasty muscle tissue. no sentient being is harmed, and it would be a much more efficient use of resources.

    Watching Southpark a little too much? ;)
  • edited January 2010
    I've been a vegetarian (and vegan) and it has nothing to do with Buddhism (or has it?).
    In MY case, the decision to stop eating meating had to do with the love with all living beings. I just couldn't stand eating a piece of a corpse, it was really disturbing.

    The Dalai Lama once said:
    "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
    and I think Vegetarianism is beyond buddhism. It has to do with kindness

    Now, don't think I'm a fundamentalist or nothing like that. But just imagine my situation... I live in a country that has the highest rate in the world when it comes to eating meat.
    Just google "asado" (the traditional argentinian food) in images and you'll see what I'm talking about.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Insects are also sentient beings. Many die when applying pesticides to get good crop yields. Nonetheless I try to eat vegetarian. I am trying to learn to cook a little bit better vegie because the stuff I made before was not tasty and I eventually abandoned the practice. Some vegetarians are health nuts and not really cooks. But I found a good cookbook for vegetarians I think its called vegetarianism for everyone or someting like that.

    Another note is that clinging to the belief that people should be vegetarians can also be harmful. Could result in hostility for example.
  • edited January 2010
    Saying a few words of gratitude and well wishes to all the sentient beings that suffered in any way to bring your meal to you may not make a difference to the dead animal, but it is certainly good for your own practice if it's done with sincerity. :)
    I shall be this way, from today ! :)
    There is also clinging to the idea that eating as a veg makes one a "superior Buddhist." There're people who refuse to eat meat even if it's offered to them, that would otherwise be thrown away and wasted, and this too is clinging. A path that leads to the end of all clinging is what the Buddha taught.
    Excellent point, there's truth to that, HOWEVER, the meat was "made" "consumer-ready" because of the extensive demand, so actually being part of the non-demanding group would be wise and not by def. clinging in that instance?
    You missed my point. My point is whether you eat meat or not if you still pick and choose your food so that it's the best, the freshest, the healthiest, the tastiest then once again it is an indulgence which is craving.
    The point of craving is coming accross now, HOWEVER I believe the your body is your temple idea holds truth, it expresses your gratitude towards your own health I think.

    It's true though, if your only selecting all the best, it would be Clinging as o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o said. And how is being a vergetarian "clinging" though btw? Or why does it necessarily lead to clinging? Please elaborate...

    Thank you for all your responses!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Watching Southpark a little too much? ;)

    They've actually produced "fake pork" by growing stem cells in a petri dish, QW.

    Palzang
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    Oh yes but at least we as Buddhists should try to minimize on this indulgence don't you think? I think we crave for food way too much :lol:

    I don't know about you, but I'm getting hungry...:doh:

    Palzang
  • Quiet_witnessQuiet_witness Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Palzang wrote: »
    They've actually produced "fake pork" by growing stem cells in a petri dish, QW.

    Palzang


    That's pretty cool. It just reminded of Cartman's pizza store grown by stem cells. :banghead:
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2010
    they should use stem cell research to make huge wads of tasty muscle tissue. no sentient being is harmed, and it would be a much more efficient use of resources.
    Watching Southpark a little too much? ;)
    Palzang wrote: »
    They've actually produced "fake pork" by growing stem cells in a petri dish, QW.

    Palzang

    Oh yeah....here you go!
    That's pretty cool. It just reminded of Cartman's pizza store grown by stem cells. :banghead:

    Well, this could literally be the answer to many a dilemma.....
  • edited January 2010
    I don't believe that anyone is "lesser" than anyone else. We are all doing the best that we can given our current level of awareness.

    I offer the following quotes in that they might be helpful to someone who reads them. In peace..


    "The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?" -Jeremy Bentham

    "I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized."
    -Henry David Thoreau

    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends." -George Bernard Shaw
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Are you "not" a "real" Buddhist if you think this way?

    I think it is important to notice that craving doesn't have to do with how you act. You could be a wandering ascetic, living on vegetables, meditating and writing mystical texts and still be filled with craving.

    If you get into Buddhism with a "boy scout" mentality, collecting precepts, retreats, exotic texts and acts of compassion as medals, you might be feeding the very thing you are running from.

    What buddhists like to call ego is impermanent. It adapts itself to the situation. When you were a kid you craved for certain things you couldn't care less about today (toys for example), and as you go along the content of that craving changes, until one day you look at your life and you ego goes "this isn't doing it for me, normal life doesn't give me kicks anymore, I am gonna try Buddhism". This is when you have to watch out, or else you just end up getting a brand new set of spiritual cravings.
  • edited January 2010
    I think it is important to notice that craving doesn't have to do with how you act. You could be a wandering ascetic, living on vegetables, meditating and writing mystical texts and still be filled with craving.

    If you get into Buddhism with a "boy scout" mentality, collecting precepts, retreats, exotic texts and acts of compassion as medals, you might be feeding the very thing you are running from.

    What buddhists like to call ego is impermanent. It adapts itself to the situation. When you were a kid you craved for certain things you couldn't care less about today (toys for example), and as you go along the content of that craving changes, until one day you look at your life and you ego goes "this isn't doing it for me, normal life doesn't give me kicks anymore, I am gonna try Buddhism". This is when you have to watch out, or else you just end up getting a brand new set of spiritual cravings.

    Excellent point! :uphand:
  • edited January 2010
    No one is less than the other, but killing is horrible...
    I don't think that people who eat meat are murderers (all my friends and my family eat meat), but being part of an industry that makes money by killing it's not cool.

    Please try not to eat meat, millons of friends will thank you! :D
  • edited January 2010
    Juan wrote: »
    No one is less than the other, but killing is horrible...
    I don't think that people who eat meat are murderers (all my friends and my family eat meat), but being part of an industry that makes money by killing it's not cool.

    Please try not to eat meat, millons of friends will thank you! :D

    :)
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Hank777 wrote: »
    It's true though, if your only selecting all the best, it would be Clinging as o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o said. And how is being a vergetarian "clinging" though btw? Or why does it necessarily lead to clinging? Please elaborate...

    Are you asking me? All I'm saying is whether you are vegetarian or not if you still crave after tasty stuff too much it is not a good indulgence. That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat when you are hungry or watch your health. The desire to delight the taste buds sometimes becomes a major hindrance to my meditation thus I believe it makes sense to limit on this to a level which is practicable.

    As for being vegetarian, well as I alreday said, if you feel that they kill animals because you eat meat then it makes sense to stop eating meat.
  • edited January 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    Are you asking me? All I'm saying is whether you are vegetarian or not if you still crave after tasty stuff too much it is not a good indulgence. That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat when you are hungry or watch your health. The desire to delight the taste buds sometimes becomes a major hindrance to my meditation thus I believe it makes sense to limit on this to a level which is practicable.

    As for being vegetarian, well as I alreday said, if you feel that they kill animals because you eat meat then it makes sense to stop eating meat.

    I promise I'm not attacking anyone on here whatsoever(nor would I - I'm all about Ahimsa). :)

    I just want to put this out there.. For me personally, I know that my no longer eating meat isn't likely to cause people to stop killing animals(and yes in some places and circumstances people have to). I just decided to no longer help financially support those big, meat industry, factory farms which are notorious for their inhumane treatment of animals.
  • Quiet_witnessQuiet_witness Veteran
    edited January 2010
    federica wrote: »
    Oh yeah....here you go!


    Well, this could literally be the answer to many a dilemma.....

    Cool article and very interesting. I was just talking with an oncologist on how they use stem cells to reproduce whiteblood cells for lukemia patients.

    I might consider coming back to eating meat or a variation like this one when they make it less gooey. For now, I will stay with my tofu and veggie burgers.
  • edited January 2010
    Jim1 wrote: »
    I just want to put this out there.. For me personally, I know that my no longer eating meat isn't likely to cause people to stop killing animals
    it is likely though, every animal killed is killed for a number of individual people, and when the number of individual people who give the demand for that animal's meat reduces even by one unit, then the grip lessens and fewer animals are killed. in a society where meat-eating is the status quo, a rock in the current is very noticeable and makes the water think, say "hey, maybe i wanna be a rock?"
    "this life of water is much too liquidy"
    you know?
    mwaha ha ha
  • edited January 2010
    I just want to put this out there.. For me personally, I know that my no longer eating meat isn't likely to cause people to stop killing animals(and yes in some places and circumstances people have to). I just decided to no longer help financially support those big, meat industry, factory farms which are notorious for their inhumane treatment of animals.
    I can say for a fact that the killing of animals is a supply and demand business. The hog industry has been hurting badly because of weak demand and high input costs (corn, etc.). The sow herd has been reduced by a small percentage (can't recall a number...) in response.
    I'm happy to say that this is my last week being associated to the animal killing industry...

    brian
  • edited January 2010
    Jim1 wrote: »
    I promise I'm not attacking anyone on here whatsoever(nor would I - I'm all about Ahimsa). :)

    I just want to put this out there.. For me personally, I know that my no longer eating meat isn't likely to cause people to stop killing animals(and yes in some places and circumstances people have to). I just decided to no longer help financially support those big, meat industry, factory farms which are notorious for their inhumane treatment of animals.

    I am new to Buddhism and participating in a local Shangha. I am slowly switching to a vegetarian diet, not as much because of my Buddhist studies, but because of books like, Omnivoure's Dilema and The End of Food and my understanding of the way animals are being treating while they are alive, let alone being killed. I believe it is inhuman the way the large agribusinesses treat the animals throughout their lifecycle and it is dangerous and unhealthy to my body to ingest these animals and the chemical byproducts used to raise them. Given an option of going to a truly organic farm where the animals have a normal lifecycle and are raised in the way that is closer to the way they were meant to live, I wmay eat more meat.

    That's my thoughts on the matter and it is a personal choice, at least for me at this time, on my journey. No judgement for anyone who choses to or not eat meat, or eggs or dairy, or whatever.
  • edited January 2010
    Welcome to the Forum, Sunami. :)
    Sunami wrote: »
    ......... I believe it is inhuman the way the large agribusinesses treat the animals throughout their lifecycle .........

    The two types of animals that suffer the most at the hands of large industries are dairy cows and egg laying chicken. They virtually live a life of torture throughout their lifecycle... if you want the gory details... just google. I personally think it is very "unbuddhist" to consume milk and eggs produced by these large agribusinesses because of the SUFFERING endured by these unfortunate sentient beings throughout their lifecycle... and not just because they are killed when they stop being 'productive.' This is just my opinion. :sadc:
  • edited January 2010
    sukhita wrote: »
    Welcome to the Forum, Sunami. :)



    The two types of animals that suffer the most at the hands of large industries are dairy cows and egg laying chicken. They virtually live a life of torture throughout their lifecycle... if you want the gory details... just google. I personally think it is very "unbuddhist" to consume milk and eggs produced by these large agribusinesses because of the SUFFERING endured by these unfortunate sentient beings throughout their lifecycle... and not just because they are killed when they stop being 'productive.' This is just my opinion. :sadc:
    I agree.

    I really can't speak effectively on this issue, but is there such thing as a "lesser" being of any kind?
    I am really brand new to any kind of Buddhist practice, but I do believe we are the universe. I believe that all sentient beings share in that honor. We share a sentient network with the cow, turkey, pig and chicken... even with fish... they also create our universe.

    To me, my sensibilities... since I had a kind of strange epiphany on December 27th, 2009... will not allow me to touch meat of any kind. And I am (within the past week or 2) unable to allow myself cheese and eggs.
    It wasn't something I saw coming. And it wasn't something I was trying to do. Up until that time I ate meat daily. I had tried in vain several years ago to give up meat, and I went back to it before long... I just didn't have it in me to give it up.

    In that same way, I now don't have it in me to give a 'nod' to taking life so that I might sustain myself with another being's flesh. Something clicked in me, and it is no longer a matter of will-power. I am honestly repulsed by meat... I cannot see gratification in it at all. Strange phenomenon. I honestly think that if the absence of meat were to diminish my health to the point of fatal illness, I think I would just say goodbye to my family and friends and allow myself to rejoin the universe (at least thats how I feel today). It sounds really crazy... maybe... I haven't been here long enough, so I don't know what passes for 'crazy' on this forum. But I never expected to be in this ideological space. I wasn't even contemplating vegetarianism. It just hit me. A month ago I was eating a steak. And today I'm telling people that I'll likely be a vegan before long... and I probably am right now...

    If I can figure out what happened I'll come back and say something about it. But for now, I don't think eating meat necessarily makes you a bad Buddhist... it would make me a bad Buddhist to eat meat, but this journey is mine. You know what you need to be putting in your mouth... I don't think you need anyone else to be telling you.
  • edited January 2010
    TheBrink wrote: »
    .... since I had a kind of strange epiphany on December 27th, 2009... will not allow me to touch meat of any kind. And I am (within the past week or 2) unable to allow myself cheese and eggs.

    ...... A month ago I was eating a steak. And today I'm telling people that I'll likely be a vegan before long... and I probably am right now.......

    ...... I don't think eating meat necessarily makes you a bad Buddhist...

    If becoming a vegan came so naturally (albeit suddenly), I think you should just go with the flow ... but a balanced diet is necessary... for example, ensure you take sufficient protein, etc..

    Eating meat, by or in itself, is not something 'unbuddhist'. There are people in parts of this world who cannot survive without consuming meet. BUT what, IMHO, is 'unbuddhist', is to knowingly support big industries that inflict undue SUFFERING over a prolonged period to living beings... like the poultry and dairy industries. I, personally, would rather eat meat and fish rather than consume eggs, milk and dairy products harvested/ produced by these large profit-driven industries.

    I am just exchanging views here... in the final analysis, each person must "see" for her/him-self what her/his Right Action should be in this regard. :)
  • shadowleavershadowleaver Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Here's a whole different dimension to this issue.

    Imagine you are invited to someone's home (family or friend) and they're excited to see you and cooked some meat specifically for the occasion. They put in a lot of time and love in to it in the hopes that you're going to enjoy the meal. And then you say: "Sorry, Grandma" (or whoever), I'm not going to eat that because I feel bad for the turkey (or whatever other explanation).

    Don't you think there is some lack of compassion in the above? Is the animal (that's already dead anyway) more important than the person's feelings?

    Meat is a big part of our culture and I think that giving it up entirely creates unnecessary barriers with no clear benefits.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2010
    There are a lot of problems with becoming a vegetarian in this society for sure. One is the cultural issue you mention. People think you're weird if you don't eat meat, or get insulted. Also it can be extremely difficult to find vegetarian food (not to mention vegan) in many parts of the country. You end up eating peanut butter sandwiches or something. So there are difficulties and problems associated with both sides of the issue (just like every other issue you come across in samsara). Personally I try to take the middle way. I don't eschew meat (though I do chew it :)), but I'm fine if I don't have it either. When I shop for myself, I buy a little meat, usually not beef or pork, instead I get chicken or fish, and I also eat a lot of non-meat stuff. Best not to get too attached to some -ism, I think. Just my opinion.

    Palzang
  • edited January 2010
    I don't think that people who eat meat are murderers (all my friends and my family eat meat), but being part of an industry that makes money by killing it's not cool.
    Not to knock the idea of being a vegetarian at all, I do think statements like these are not accurate.

    I mean, If that industry did not exist, we would still be hunting for our own food, but with so many people to be fed, and modern society being what it is, automation in unavoidable.

    Personally I LOVE ANIMALS, I hate the idea of them being caged in the zoo, being hurt for no good reason etc. Still I look at nature, animals eat each other too, it's part of nature, and although we humans can think rationally, I believe that in the "normal survival" way of it, eating meat should be ok.

    I only eat normal amounts of it, so although I like the vegetarian idea, I believe my "modest" inclination towards meat is "nature's way".

    I do pray now, as Palzang, suggested, out of respect of another sentient being giving its life for being my food, and I try to buy only "biological" meat.
  • shadowleavershadowleaver Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Thanks for a reasonable view on this issue, Palzang, as people oftentimes get carried away with animal rights to the exclusion of all other considerations. My philosophical thoughts on the issue are as follows:

    If meat is *offered* to me, I can't see any possible wrongdoing in taking it. The animal has been killed and cooked, and if I eat its meat I'm not contributing to anyone's suffering. Furthermore, refusing meat in this case may cause it to be wasted, which just doesn't sound right. This *offered* situation is very common for me personally, as I eat with my family a lot. (That said, the offer has to be pretty special for me to eat red meat-- all who feed me regularly know that I'm a poultry/seafood person)

    On the other hand, if I am the one choosing the meal, I *am* encouraging mistreatment of animals should I want meat. The intention is not quite right if I pay for meat on my own volition. Therefore, when there's a reasonable vegetarion choice, I go for it. However, oftetimes when I come to a restaraunt there just isn't a dietically sound vegetarian alternative-- in that case I get seafood and chicken and don't feel too bad about that as I put my health above chickens & fish.
  • edited January 2010
    The following is very uncomfortable to watch, but if you insist on eating meat you should watch it, and at the very least consider the source of any meat you choose to eat...

    www.meat.org

    Some may consider it distasteful to post such a video, but what is it considered to let these crimes continue without intervention, particularly among a community of people whose goal it is to live lives of compassion?
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Don't you think there is some lack of compassion in the above? Is the animal (that's already dead anyway) more important than the person's feelings?

    The bigger problem is clinging to the idea that not eating the already dead and cooked animal will somehow undo, or prevent further, suffering to the animal, and failing to realize that wasting the meat is rather ignorant considering there are people starving in the world, and going and buying a veggie platter instead only causes more unnecessary suffering. :crazy:
  • edited January 2010
    The bigger problem is clinging to the idea that not eating the already dead and cooked animal will somehow undo, or prevent further, suffering to the animal, and failing to realize that wasting the meat is rather ignorant considering there are people starving in the world, and going and buying a veggie platter instead only causes more unnecessary suffering. :crazy:

    You vote with your dollars, friend. When you buy meat, you are in essence making a donation to the industry and saying, "Keep doing what you're doing!" But what they are doing is awful. And what is fed to the animals in these factory farms would go a long way toward helping people in need throughout the world.

    I don't think it is ever "ignorant" to say no to meat. I don't consider it "ignorant" to oppose the side of those who don't care what an animal goes through to provide meat for them.

    I don't think grandma is going to suffer much if you just decide to have some potatoes and carrots instead of the meatloaf.
    If she knows you don't eat meat, next time she won't buy it for you.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited January 2010
    You vote with your dollars, friend. When you buy meat, you are in essence making a donation to the industry and saying, "Keep doing what you're doing!" But what they are doing is awful. And what is fed to the animals in these factory farms would go a long way toward helping people in need throughout the world.

    The scenario was: someone already bought the meat, and cooked it for you. It will go to waste otherwise. You can explain you're vegetarian and would prefer not to eat meat next time, but eat what they serve anyway. What does what you just said have to do with this scenario?
    I don't think grandma is going to suffer much if you just decide to have some potatoes and carrots instead of the meatloaf.

    Like I said, it's not so much about grandma. It's about clinging and delusion.
  • edited January 2010
    TheBrink wrote: »
    The following is very uncomfortable to watch, but if you insist on eating meat you should watch it, and at the very least consider the source of any meat you choose to eat...

    www.meat.org

    Some may consider it distasteful to post such a video, but what is it considered to let these crimes continue without intervention, particularly among a community of people whose goal it is to live lives of compassion?

    I love Paul. I just want to say, thank you for having the courage to post this.

    I agree with you that once people have watched this video that if they then want to continue to financially support this kind of animal cruelty then ok, but at least they will now know.
  • edited January 2010
    Like I said, it's not so much about grandma. It's about clinging and delusion.

    Devil's advocacy and grandma's straw men aside, I don't see how it is clinging to avoid meat.
    If you want to have some of your grandma's chicken casserole because it has been set in front of you, fine. But to say it is delusional to say, "No thank you", sounds more like a justification for you to participate in the suffering of these beings. No offense, but I don't think it is the non-meat eaters who are under a delusion.
  • edited January 2010
    Jim1 wrote: »
    I love Paul. I just want to say, thank you for having the courage to post this.

    I agree with you that once people have watched this video that if they then want to continue to financially support this kind of animal cruelty then ok, but at least they will now know.
    You're welcome.
    I'd seen it a year or so ago. But it has a different effect on me now.
  • edited January 2010
    Imagine you are invited to someone's home (family or friend) and they're excited to see you and cooked some meat specifically for the occasion. They put in a lot of time and love in to it in the hopes that you're going to enjoy the meal. And then you say: "Sorry, Grandma" (or whoever), I'm not going to eat that because I feel bad for the turkey (or whatever other explanation).

    Don't you think there is some lack of compassion in the above? Is the animal (that's already dead anyway) more important than the person's feelings?

    It happens to me all the time. Meat is the basic industry here, my country wouldn't even exist economically if there weren't any meat. People only eat meat. It's a cultural thing...
    But everytime I see meat on the table I see what really is: a piece of a cow, pork, chicken, etc.
    It's a corpse... It's really disgusting.
    What everyone calls "juice" it's really blood... no one ever thinks that way.

    I personally think everyone has to see Earthlings... it's hard and has some scenes that are just horrifying, but in the end, that's the reality. It happens thousands of times everyday, we just choose to close our eyes and not see the reality.

    If you are interested, here's the link:
    http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142&ei=h-ZcS6eLMaiMqAK53qTzCA&q=earthlings#

    Viewer disrection is adviced
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited January 2010
    But to say it is delusional to say, "No thank you", sounds more like a justification for you to participate in the suffering of these beings.

    Because the dead animal isn't suffering. It suffered, past tense, whether you eat it or not. This isn't about supporting the slaughter of animals by purchasing meat. You can explain you're a vegetarian and ask that they not cook any for you next time. But to still refuse to eat the meat because you think it would still somehow be participating in the suffering of the animal, is, frankly, a delusion. Throwing said meat out, and buying a veggie burger instead, is contributing to even more needless suffering of beings than just eating the damned meat. :lol: Even monks eat what's given to them.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2010
    If you have taken vows not to eat meat whether formally or personally then you should not eat it. Its nobodies damn business what you eat. Your choice your body (and mind).
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