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i was defining sacred with the words that preceded it.
life is, but does this mean there is no quality to the isness of it? sacred, in this context, means something not to be killed, for it is impossible to kill life, and thus we shouldn't do what's impossible.
The Buddhist view is that eating meat from an animal not killed by you does not accrue karma for you. But that killing a salmon or other sentient creature does.
that depends, though meat from the supermarket may have a larger karmic stain on it then fishing. i would not say fishing is free of karma but it seems to be a lot purer than other meat eating. knowing where your meat is coming from and how it is obtained is necessary if you are eating meat. i don't think meat-eating and killing can be disassociated from each other though. even if you don't kill it, someone else did, and these actions are mutually inclusive.
But allowing yourself to die for another being's survival isn't "questionable"? Shouldn't eat at all, then.
yes, i didn't mean morally questionable, i meant literally questionable, it should be questioned.
....... i would not say fishing is free of karma but it seems to be a lot purer than other meat eating. knowing where your meat is coming from and how it is obtained is necessary if you are eating meat. i don't think meat-eating and killing can be disassociated from each other though. even if you don't kill it, someone else did, and these actions are mutually inclusive......
You make a valid point. When I read your post, these two examples came to mind:
Example 1: Chicken bought from supermarket
The chicken, from the time it is hatched, is force-fed with food to fatten it as quickly as possible to increase the profit margin. It's much like feeding a child with the aim of making it obese. Keeping it in a tiny cage like a prisoner. The chicken lives a really pathetic life. And then the killing takes place. By purchasing the chicken, we create the demand. The consumer is the one who eventually finances the costs for all these unwholesome actions.
Example 2: Fish caught at sea by yourself
The fish lives a normal life, eating what it wants. Its not a prisoner. It can associate freely with other fish. Then you catch it (killing takes place). The fish suffered for just a few minutes.
Ultimately, of the two examples, which is the more unwholesome action?
I make this post not to preach morality, but to show how difficult it is to make choices in samsara!
I make this post not to preach morality, but to show how difficult it is to make choices in samsara!
This....
The best we can do - imo only - is develop awareness around all the choices we make. For me the greatest dietary sin I could make is mindless consumption. (Which I admittedly do indulge in on occasion).
I'm finding it quite strange that non-vegetarianism is still considered admissible in Buddhism.
Personally I feel that The Buddha would have taught everyone to go vegan in this age.
There are plenty of tasty and nutritious vegan options everywhere now. I've been a vegan for the past 8 months and I dont miss anything at all. Infact I'm more alert and with more energy now.
Here are some quotes from The Lord Buddha himself :-
One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing. To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food. - Lord Buddha
The eating of flesh extinguishes the seed of great compassion. - Lord Buddha, Mahaparinirvana Sutra
All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? - Lord Buddha
To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana. - Lord Buddha
For the sake of love of purity, the Bodhisattva should refrain from eating flesh, which is born of semen, blood, etc. For fear of causing terror to living beings let the Bodhisattva, who is disciplining himself to attain compassion, refrain from eating flesh...It is not true that meat is proper food and permissible when the animal was not killed by himself, when he did not order others to kill it, when it was not specially meant for him. Again, there may be some people in the future who...being under the influence of the taste for meat will string together in various ways sophistic arguments to defend meat eating. But...meat eating in any form, in any manner, and in any place is unconditionally and once for all prohibited...Meat eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit. - Lord Buddha, Lankavatara Sutra
If one is trying to practice meditation and is still eating meat, he would be like a man closing his ears and shouting loudly, and then asserting that he heard nothing. - Lord Buddha, Surangama Sutra
Comicallyinsane :- May I know your allergies and limitations ? Also , you can check this for a wealth of info on simple , nutritious and tasty cooking :- http://www.compassionatecooks.com/
I have oral allergy syndrome, gout, diverticulitis, and high cholesterol on a genetic level. I can't eat fruits, vegetables, fish, shellfish, nuts, seeds, or too much animal fat.
Ok then what are the things that you can eat ?
Personally I was raised a lacto-vegetarian , but once I realised the cruelty behind the dairy industry, I quit dairy products in an instant. I dont consume honey also anymore.
The chicken, from the time it is hatched, is force-fed with food to fatten it as quickly as possible to increase the profit margin. It's much like feeding a child with the aim of making it obese. Keeping it in a tiny cage like a prisoner. The chicken lives a really pathetic life. And then the killing takes place. By purchasing the chicken, we create the demand. The consumer is the one who eventually finances the costs for all these unwholesome actions.
Sheesh you make me not wanna eat meat again ever
But seriously you do have a point here Sukhitha. By eating meat we are promoting the meat market and indirectly supporting the killing :eek:
Dont mind it but your diet sounds very risky. I wonder which doctor has recommended that kind of a diet ! Without much greens and fruits you are taking a really big risk IMHO. Not to scare you off , but one of my friend in Belgium had a very similar diet and after a few years he contracted Multiple Sclerosis(you really dont want to get it trust me !) - and thats when doctors advised him to go completely vegan. The entire medical industry runs like a business. I HIGHLY recommend you to go a little of the China Study.
There are shocking results of the benefits of a plant-based diet that some say is going to rewrite the entire medical literature in the near future :-
May I know which plants can kill you and how do you know they can kill you ?
Soy is not necessary when you go vegan. Similary meat is not necessary either for your nutritional requirements. I am quite sure you can find certain veggies and fruits that will meet your nutritional requirements. My friend , I can only advise here that you are doing more harm to yourself in the long run with that kind of diet. Please do read about The China Study - it has SHOCKING results that many people(medical , pharma , media etc) don't want to go mainstream
Oral allergy syndrome is where the body thinks fruits and vegetables are bee pollen. An allergic reaction happens when I eat those foods. My throat starts itching and then starts to close if I don't stop. My mouth and lips also swell. My hands get red and irritated when I touch the juicy parts of raw foods. Some foods may or may not kill me. I don't know which being that I don't eat them.
Ok now I understood the gravity of the problem. I'll discuss with a few friends here and I admit that I have no answer to it. I wonder , like you , what Buddha might have advised.
Probably Buddha did not have the concept of nutrition/vitamins etc back then , so he may have advised you to still consume only vegetarian stuff like grains , corns but we know now that will be unhealthy in the long run.
Personally though I would have still gone for vegan options that I can take + supplement through pills those vitamins/minerals that I cannot get from a vegan diet.
The actual teachings concerning eating meat shared by all Buddhist schools except some Chinese schools is that killing a sentirnt creature accrues negative karma -vipaka. Eating a sentient creatute killed by someone else does not accrue negative karma -vipaka for you. This is standard Buddhist position, which can be readily checked out at your nearest Buddhist centre. The ecological or sustainability issue is not pertinent to the issue of karma -vipaka. That is entirely to do with intention according to Buddhism. Karma -vipaka is the result of volitional activity. Not unintended consequences. Thre may be good environmental or health related arguments for a vegetarian diet . But Buddhism does not directly address them. The point of buddhism is Enlightenment. Not good health or a healthy planet, desirable as those might be as a secondary issue.
Instead of asking if non-vegetarian Buddhists are lesser Buddhists, what if we look at the issue more positively and ask: Is vegetarianism compatible with the Buddha's teachings?
Come friends, we should all be saying wholeheartedly that it is compatible. Vegetarianism is a very beneficial practice for one who is developing two conditions which every Buddhist should be trying to develop: compassion and wisdom. Compassion means feeling with, feeling for, being sensitive to the pain of other sentient beings. The natural outcome of developing such compassion is that we do not want to kill, we do not want to hurt others, and we do not want to encourage others to do so, we do want to pay others to do so. Through wisdom we begin to realise that our actions have direct and indirect results, within the framework of one of the fundamental laws of nature, called Dependent Origination: 'When this is, that comes to be." In other words, certain conditions bring about certain results. With mindfulness and awareness, we begin to see the relationship. Whatever we do has its consequences. The way we live gives rise to causes and results. We begin to see that this is a fundamental law of nature and we become a lot more aware of how we are living and the consequences of our actions. As we become more compassionate and wise we will start to direct our lives so that we become more harmless, or contribute less to the suffering and destruction in life.
Not to scare you off , but one of my friend in Belgium had a very similar diet and after a few years he contracted Multiple Sclerosis(you really dont want to get it trust me !) - and thats when doctors advised him to go completely vegan.
I had a family member who passed away due to Multiple Sclerosis, and I find this highly offensive. It is a genetic disease, maybe you should do some research before you say such foolish things.
I had a family member who passed away due to Multiple Sclerosis, and I find this highly offensive. It is a genetic disease, maybe you should do some research before you say such foolish things.
Please do your own research first. MS is not considered a hereditary disease. Period. However, a number of genetic variations have been shown to increase the risk of developing the disease. The doctors asked my friend to go vegan, not me.
Its hard not to break sila when I hear comment like yours. I just want to spread the message of a cruelty-free diet.
That said, I apologize if I offended you and I wish you peace and liberation.
Please do your own research first. MS is not considered a hereditary disease. Period. However, a number of genetic variations have been shown to increase the risk of developing the disease. The doctors asked my friend to go vegan, not me.
Its hard not to break sila when I hear comment like yours. I just want to spread the message of a cruelty-free diet.
That said, I apologize if I offended you and I wish you peace and liberation.
I never said it was a hereditary disease, I said it was genetic. There is no proof whatsoever that bad diet can be a cause of its contraction.
The fact is, you are using a disease people suffer through for your vegetarian cause.
I think I kinda get an idea of the kind of thoughts of people here. Not my type of place. I'm off for good - not unhappy or anything , but would rather go to a more peaceful forum. Peace n liberation to you all.
I have to admit, as bad as it is, I LOL'd at my desk at work and now my co workers think I'm on drugs or something
Yes I could have said cry baby. I could have said a multitude of things (seeing as I'm a meat eater). But I guess there's a lot to be said for a modicum of reserve
I had another word, too. I was ok with the guy at first but I just can't stand people who run away when people don't agree with them. He thinks he's so evolved and the res tof us just need help.
I think I kinda get an idea of the kind of thoughts of people here. Not my type of place. I'm off for good - not unhappy or anything , but would rather go to a more peaceful forum. Peace n liberation to you all.
Let us know how that goes. Believe me, in my experience this is one of the less rancorous forums.
Dont mind it but your diet sounds very risky. I wonder which doctor has recommended that kind of a diet ! Without much greens and fruits you are taking a really big risk IMHO. Not to scare you off , but one of my friend in Belgium had a very similar diet and after a few years he contracted Multiple Sclerosis(you really dont want to get it trust me !) - and thats when doctors advised him to go completely vegan. The entire medical industry runs like a business. I HIGHLY recommend you to go a little of the China Study.
There are shocking results of the benefits of a plant-based diet that some say is going to rewrite the entire medical literature in the near future :-
I have never ever heard of a qualified medic advising anyone to adopt a vegan diet. The wife of a former colleague was told by her consultant neurologist that if she did not abandon her vegan diet she would die. I dont know what the outcome was because we have lost contact.
not a Buddhist-fundamentalist as much as a vegan-fundamentalist from what I read here....
I am suspicious of people using English quotations allegedly from the Buddha, (insert any other great spiritual leader here) with modern day western words like 'vegetarian' in them. Not to say they're made up, but we all know that translating languages is not a cut and dry thing - it's easy to alter the complexion of a passage to support whatever meaning you wish for.
I am also suspicious of anyone starting a sentence with "If the Buddha (again, insert wise-man of your choice) were alive today he'd....." It's the kind of tool religious zealouts use to manipulate people.
Personal investigation and personal experience is surely the best way for everyone?
I have never ever heard of a qualified medic advising anyone to adopt a vegan diet. The wife of a former colleague was told by her consultant neurologist that if she did not abandon her vegan diet she would die. I dont know what the outcome was because we have lost contact.
A shame that the info is unavailable. In a quarter-century of vegetarianism, I've been exposed to a number of these anecdotal "doctor said eat meat or die!" stories, but every time I ask for more information (ie, what nutrient was reportedly missing, what condition was at work, etc.), there never seems to be anything to tell.
I suspect that "poor diet" is to blame, rather than "different diet". Our friend commicallyinsane may indeed have a condition that gives him odd reactions to veggies; it wouldn't be the strangest thing I've ever heard of...but it's hard for me to understand how the average person, eating a healthy diet of fruit, leafy greens, nuts, beans, plant-derived fats, etc, could be anything but well above the health baseline of the average American.
OTOH, it's certainly possible to have a "vegan diet", eat junk food that technically falls within the bounds of the diet, and find yourself in trouble...just like one of my best friends, who is 10 years younger than me (early 30's), and has been on meds for years for massive triglyceride and cholesterol problems, due to a crummy diet. (He is not a vegan, nor a vegetarian, by a long shot)
Just my $.02. I think we should steer away from preaching one diet gospel or another based on rumors and heresay.
Comments
Today i ate only once, what my body needed to sustain itself.
Anything more would be like putting rubbish into the body.
Meat is okay IMHO.
However, delight in meat only delays the liberation process.
:rolleyes:
That is a common belief.
It depends on your daily routine.
If one works on a job that requires a lot of energy, but precludes having a correct meal, many small meals throughout the day may be right.
If one doesn't work on a job that requires a lot of energy, and if one has the possibility to have a correct meal, one or two meals are sufficient.
In fact, when one is constantly digesting, like most Westerners, there is no time for the mind to rest.
Digestion literally burns you up.
:winkc:
life is, but does this mean there is no quality to the isness of it? sacred, in this context, means something not to be killed, for it is impossible to kill life, and thus we shouldn't do what's impossible. that depends, though meat from the supermarket may have a larger karmic stain on it then fishing. i would not say fishing is free of karma but it seems to be a lot purer than other meat eating. knowing where your meat is coming from and how it is obtained is necessary if you are eating meat. i don't think meat-eating and killing can be disassociated from each other though. even if you don't kill it, someone else did, and these actions are mutually inclusive. yes, i didn't mean morally questionable, i meant literally questionable, it should be questioned.
Thanks a heap.
You make a valid point. When I read your post, these two examples came to mind:
Example 1: Chicken bought from supermarket
The chicken, from the time it is hatched, is force-fed with food to fatten it as quickly as possible to increase the profit margin. It's much like feeding a child with the aim of making it obese. Keeping it in a tiny cage like a prisoner. The chicken lives a really pathetic life. And then the killing takes place. By purchasing the chicken, we create the demand. The consumer is the one who eventually finances the costs for all these unwholesome actions.
Example 2: Fish caught at sea by yourself
The fish lives a normal life, eating what it wants. Its not a prisoner. It can associate freely with other fish. Then you catch it (killing takes place). The fish suffered for just a few minutes.
Ultimately, of the two examples, which is the more unwholesome action?
I make this post not to preach morality, but to show how difficult it is to make choices in samsara!
This....
The best we can do - imo only - is develop awareness around all the choices we make. For me the greatest dietary sin I could make is mindless consumption. (Which I admittedly do indulge in on occasion).
I'm finding it quite strange that non-vegetarianism is still considered admissible in Buddhism.
Personally I feel that The Buddha would have taught everyone to go vegan in this age.
There are plenty of tasty and nutritious vegan options everywhere now. I've been a vegan for the past 8 months and I dont miss anything at all. Infact I'm more alert and with more energy now.
Here are some quotes from The Lord Buddha himself :-
One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing. To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food. - Lord Buddha
The eating of flesh extinguishes the seed of great compassion. - Lord Buddha, Mahaparinirvana Sutra
All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? - Lord Buddha
To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana. - Lord Buddha
For the sake of love of purity, the Bodhisattva should refrain from eating flesh, which is born of semen, blood, etc. For fear of causing terror to living beings let the Bodhisattva, who is disciplining himself to attain compassion, refrain from eating flesh...It is not true that meat is proper food and permissible when the animal was not killed by himself, when he did not order others to kill it, when it was not specially meant for him. Again, there may be some people in the future who...being under the influence of the taste for meat will string together in various ways sophistic arguments to defend meat eating. But...meat eating in any form, in any manner, and in any place is unconditionally and once for all prohibited...Meat eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit. - Lord Buddha, Lankavatara Sutra
If one is trying to practice meditation and is still eating meat, he would be like a man closing his ears and shouting loudly, and then asserting that he heard nothing. - Lord Buddha, Surangama Sutra
More info is here :-
http://kranti.org/damage/spirituality/buddhism.html
Best regards
Personally I was raised a lacto-vegetarian , but once I realised the cruelty behind the dairy industry, I quit dairy products in an instant. I dont consume honey also anymore.
Chicken, beef, pork, and grains and wheat. I can also eat potatoes and sometimes corn. I can drink juice if it's really watered down. Also dairy.
Sheesh you make me not wanna eat meat again ever
But seriously you do have a point here Sukhitha. By eating meat we are promoting the meat market and indirectly supporting the killing :eek:
There are shocking results of the benefits of a plant-based diet that some say is going to rewrite the entire medical literature in the near future :-
http://kranti.org/knowledge-base/library/audio-books-and-articles/80-the-china-study-audio-book-the-most-comprehensive-study-of-nutrition-ever-conducted.html
Soy is not necessary when you go vegan. Similary meat is not necessary either for your nutritional requirements. I am quite sure you can find certain veggies and fruits that will meet your nutritional requirements. My friend , I can only advise here that you are doing more harm to yourself in the long run with that kind of diet. Please do read about The China Study - it has SHOCKING results that many people(medical , pharma , media etc) don't want to go mainstream
Probably Buddha did not have the concept of nutrition/vitamins etc back then , so he may have advised you to still consume only vegetarian stuff like grains , corns but we know now that will be unhealthy in the long run.
I had a family member who passed away due to Multiple Sclerosis, and I find this highly offensive. It is a genetic disease, maybe you should do some research before you say such foolish things.
Please do your own research first. MS is not considered a hereditary disease. Period. However, a number of genetic variations have been shown to increase the risk of developing the disease. The doctors asked my friend to go vegan, not me.
Its hard not to break sila when I hear comment like yours. I just want to spread the message of a cruelty-free diet.
That said, I apologize if I offended you and I wish you peace and liberation.
I never said it was a hereditary disease, I said it was genetic. There is no proof whatsoever that bad diet can be a cause of its contraction.
The fact is, you are using a disease people suffer through for your vegetarian cause.
Apology accepted.
xD
Hi Zazang,
Could you elaborate, please.
Sukhita
Although Zazeng strikes me as a Buddhist Fundamentalist of sorts - and highly offensive too.
Don't you mean cry baby?
I have to admit, as bad as it is, I LOL'd at my desk at work and now my co workers think I'm on drugs or something
Yes I could have said cry baby. I could have said a multitude of things (seeing as I'm a meat eater). But I guess there's a lot to be said for a modicum of reserve
Most of the time LOL
I am suspicious of people using English quotations allegedly from the Buddha, (insert any other great spiritual leader here) with modern day western words like 'vegetarian' in them. Not to say they're made up, but we all know that translating languages is not a cut and dry thing - it's easy to alter the complexion of a passage to support whatever meaning you wish for.
I am also suspicious of anyone starting a sentence with "If the Buddha (again, insert wise-man of your choice) were alive today he'd....." It's the kind of tool religious zealouts use to manipulate people.
Personal investigation and personal experience is surely the best way for everyone?
comicallyinsane, whenever I read some of your posts I laugh my *** off.
I'm meaning this as a compliment btw
LOL ok I see it now. I watch South Park but I would have never put the two together.
I have my moments.
A shame that the info is unavailable. In a quarter-century of vegetarianism, I've been exposed to a number of these anecdotal "doctor said eat meat or die!" stories, but every time I ask for more information (ie, what nutrient was reportedly missing, what condition was at work, etc.), there never seems to be anything to tell.
I suspect that "poor diet" is to blame, rather than "different diet". Our friend commicallyinsane may indeed have a condition that gives him odd reactions to veggies; it wouldn't be the strangest thing I've ever heard of...but it's hard for me to understand how the average person, eating a healthy diet of fruit, leafy greens, nuts, beans, plant-derived fats, etc, could be anything but well above the health baseline of the average American.
OTOH, it's certainly possible to have a "vegan diet", eat junk food that technically falls within the bounds of the diet, and find yourself in trouble...just like one of my best friends, who is 10 years younger than me (early 30's), and has been on meds for years for massive triglyceride and cholesterol problems, due to a crummy diet. (He is not a vegan, nor a vegetarian, by a long shot)
Just my $.02. I think we should steer away from preaching one diet gospel or another based on rumors and heresay.