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...OTOH, it's certainly possible to have a "vegan diet", eat junk food that technically falls within the bounds of the diet, and find yourself in trouble...
Just my $.02. I think we should steer away from preaching one diet gospel or another based on rumors and heresay.
My niece is a "junk food vegetarian" and occasional vegan (she tried it after reading the "Skinny Bitch" books) . She eats baked potatoes and broccoli covered in cheese-whiz, french fries, potato chips, and anything she can find at the store without meat in it (cookies/double whip lattes/morningstar farms stuff...).
Agree 100% about the preaching part, people have to explore and try food out to see what works for them. For me being a 95% veg works.
The whole premise of this thread about thinking one is a better Buddhist than someone else is more damaging to your progression towards enlightenment than whether or not you eat meat.
On the side of survival as a species we need to re-evuluate our food practices.
As one of my teachers once said, nobody ever got enlightened by pointing fingers at others!
And whatever re-evuluate means, I promise to do it ASAP!
I have to admit, as bad as it is, I LOL'd at my desk at work and now my co workers think I'm on drugs or something
Yes I could have said cry baby. I could have said a multitude of things (seeing as I'm a meat eater). But I guess there's a lot to be said for a modicum of reserve
As one of my teachers once said, nobody ever got enlightened by pointing fingers at others!
And whatever re-evuluate means, I promise to do it ASAP!
Palzang
Point taken and I hope I didn't come across as pointing fingers even though I see it could be taken that way. I guess what I was trying to say is the same message your teacher once said, I just did not say it as well.
By re-evaluate I am reffering to change on a macro-scale but it will have to start on an individual bases. I can't ask someone to do anything I am not able and willing to do.
The change I dream of is more diversity in food consumption (more greens, reds, oranges, yellows, and purples) less corn based foods, less consumption of meat, more hands-on knowledge of where food comes from, more awareness of what we are eating and when we are eating. This simple stuff will make all the difference and create a new demand paradigm of what food is in the contemporary world.
No, QW, I was supporting what you were saying. You are quite right that a thread like this with accusations and counter-accusations is highly inappropriate. Those holier-than-thou types who think they are purer than anybody else because they do/don't eat meat are just out of line and need to rethink their intolerant positions, imho. Intolerance does not = Buddhism!
I only bring happiness to the masses. Every once in a while I stumble upon the truth.
And you do, my friend. I was just saying that reading you at work can lead to outbursts of the kind Dhammachick experienced! Which then leads to your co-workers casting the evil eye at you and so forth...
And you do, my friend. I was just saying that reading you at work can lead to outbursts of the kind Dhammachick experienced! Which then leads to your co-workers casting the evil eye at you and so forth...
Palzang
You're the best Palzang. I'm glad to be back here in full force.
Can't do 'em, bad knees. Same for running. I try to swim, but it's difficult to find the time to get to the pool (we have a very nice indoor pool run by the county in the next town over).
Fitness is a topic I have dedicated a lot of energy too. A good salad I have been making (which recipe I stole from whole foods) is called super food salad. It basically has every vitamin your body needs and tastes great. I use an assortment of nuts (walnut, almond, sunflower seeds), blueberries, greens, diced onions, cherry tomatoes, green pepper, shreded carrots, green lentils, and an acai dressing. It is really good and if you eat that with a bowl of long stem rice for lunch you will lose weight and stay really healthy.
I have never ever heard of a qualified medic advising anyone to adopt a vegan diet. The wife of a former colleague was told by her consultant neurologist that if she did not abandon her vegan diet she would die. I dont know what the outcome was because we have lost contact.
Here you go. Let me know if you need more.
(all listed are vegan and promote a vegan lifestyle to their patients)
Neal Barnard, M.D.
Michael Klaper, M.D.
John A. McDougall, M.D.
Joel Furhman, M.D.
Agreed that the whole notion of "less of a Buddhist" is silly, and well, not very Buddhist..?
Both sides of the debate seemed to be vexed to some degree; the topic is always a trigger. The answer to the question "Is vegetarianism implied in the Precept" has always seemed very clear to me...I'll leave it to others to decide what is clear to them.
I definitely agree that it is implied in the precept.
I doubt that Gautama Buddha's preferred foodstuff was based on meat. It would be no surprise if he were vegetarian. If you look at the history of India, it has always been majority non-meat eating country except when it was influenced by the Muslims and British. Meat has always been a luxury in Asia.
I was looking at recipes and I remembered the short essay entitled The First Step by Leo Tolstoy at the end of it. This one made an impact again to me:
... That is dreadful. Not the suffering and death of the animals, but that that man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity -- that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself -- and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel. And how deeply seated in the human heart is the injunction not to take it life!
Also in the same recipe book, : please check if this is a correct quote from Dhammapada 130
All tremble at violence, all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill or cause another to kill
Another one from the recipe book, from one of the most original thinkers of our time, George Bernard Shaw
We pray on Sundays that we may have light
To guide our footsteps on the path we thread
We are sick of wars, we dont want to fight
And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead
Maybe I should mention this also, I read somewhere that if we can control the urge of the tongue, everything else will be easier to control.
Just let me note that eating plant-based foods alone doesn't eliminate animal cruelty. When you cut forests or plow over grasslands to make room for fields, huge numbers of animals end up dead due to loss of habitat. Throw in pesticides into the picture, and the body count gets even bigger-- I'm not talking about insects, but higher animals starving due to lack of insects to eat.
Now animal cruelty doesn't end with diet. Most of us live in the prosperous West and therefore make extensive use of industrially manufactured goods. To make transportation, modern medecine, clothing and most every other attribute of this life possible, some pollution and wilderness elimination needs to take place. A lot of animals suffer that way.
Really, if we look at the issue soberly, eating meat and other animal products is a drop in the bucket as far as man-made animal suffering goes.
As living beings we devour each other directly or indirectly-- that is the nature of life on planet Earth. I'm all for decreasing the amount of that devouring whenever reasonably possible. However, if I don't want to devour at all, my only choice is to die.
Just let me note that eating plant-based foods alone doesn't eliminate animal cruelty. When you cut forests or plow over grasslands to make room for fields, huge numbers of animals end up dead due to loss of habitat. Throw in pesticides into the picture, and the body count gets even bigger-- I'm not talking about insects, but higher animals starving due to lack of insects to eat.
Now animal cruelty doesn't end with diet. Most of us live in the prosperous West and therefore make extensive use of industrially manufactured goods. To make transportation, modern medecine, clothing and most every other attribute of this life possible, some pollution and wilderness elimination needs to take place. A lot of animals suffer that way.
Really, if we look at the issue soberly, eating meat and other animal products is a drop in the bucket as far as man-made animal suffering goes.
As living beings we devour each other directly or indirectly-- that is the nature of life on planet Earth. I'm all for decreasing the amount of that devouring whenever reasonably possible. However, if I don't want to devour at all, my only choice is to die.
All good points. What we forget sometimes is that humans are still in a very barbaric stage. The only reason we think we have moved forward more than we have is because we have cooler toys. We really need to focus on new technologies and methods that are cleaner and safer for us and the environment.
Just let me note that eating plant-based foods alone doesn't eliminate animal cruelty. When you cut forests or plow over grasslands to make room for fields, huge numbers of animals end up dead due to loss of habitat. Throw in pesticides into the picture, and the body count gets even bigger-- I'm not talking about insects, but higher animals starving due to lack of insects to eat.
I can only speak for myself as a vegetarian, but I'm not suffering from the delusion that I'm ending animal cruelty. I do my part, and it seems (for me) to jibe with my dharma practice.
One thing to note, since you're going down this road...
A very large percentage of the crop land you're talking about is used to feed livestock, not humans. They are tied together. The math may be a wee bit more complex than what you think.
I can only speak for myself as a vegetarian, but I'm not suffering from the delusion that I'm ending animal cruelty. I do my part, and it seems (for me) to jibe with my dharma practice.
One thing to note, since you're going down this road...
A very large percentage of the crop land you're talking about is used to feed livestock, not humans. They are tied together. The math may be a wee bit more complex than what you think.
A very large percentage of the crop land you're talking about is used to feed livestock, not humans. They are tied together. The math may be a wee bit more complex than what you think.
This is a very important point to remember for those who are eating meat.
It is a fact that the grains used to feed livestock could go directly to feeding the entire worlds population several times over.
This excludes the fact that the amount of water used in livestock is literally hundreds of times more than growing produce.
We could also throw in the environmental implications of raising livestock...
When you really look at it, there are so many negative aspects to using animal products and very few (debatable) positive points.
Consider why many Buddhists choose not to eat meat in the first place. If it is getting on your conscience, then it is blocking the path to Nibbana, isn't it?
I always thought that was the reason for vegetarianism in Buddhism...
Personally, I do eat meat, but mostly because my Mum and Dad do, and they sort of pay for all of my food. (and cook). But my stepmum to be is vegetarian, so who knows...?
It's a good point that you need a lot of land and water to grow food to be fed to farm animals. Of course, the way to resolve that is to go vegan-- cutting out the meet but not giving up eggs & dairy wouldn't do that.
Now while I can see vegetarianism as a viable option, veganism is just too extreme to me. First, it's a royal pain in the neck not only to find truly vegan food (nearly impossible if you're travelling and have to eat out) but also to eat with others, who don't share your radical (by today's standards) views.
Second, you run a real risk of not getting enough vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron-- you need to take supplements or rely on hard-to-get, exotic products to address that. I think the loud and clear message here is that Homo Sapiens is not naturally vegan, otherwise, we wouldn't need vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron. Now going against nature to me is inherently going in the wrong direction.
If being vegan makes one feel good and wholesome, I can only be happy for that person. However, mass veganism, in my opinion, is a total non-starter. Vegans will probably always be seen as extremists of some sort. Being vocal about their veganism could even do damage to the religious traditions they represent.
It's a good point that you need a lot of land and water to grow food to be fed to farm animals. Of course, the way to resolve that is to go vegan-- cutting out the meet but not giving up eggs & dairy wouldn't do that.
Now while I can see vegetarianism as a viable option, veganism is just too extreme to me. First, it's a royal pain in the neck not only to find truly vegan food (nearly impossible if you're travelling and have to eat out) but also to eat with others, who don't share your radical (by today's standards) views.
Second, you run a real risk of not getting enough vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron-- you need to take supplements or rely on hard-to-get, exotic products to address that. I think the loud and clear message here is that Homo Sapiens is not naturally vegan, otherwise, we wouldn't need vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron. Now going against nature to me is inherently going in the wrong direction.
If being vegan makes one feel good and wholesome, I can only be happy for that person. However, mass veganism, in my opinion, is a total non-starter. Vegans will probably always be seen as extremists of some sort. Being vocal about their veganism could even do damage to the religious traditions they represent.
Homo Sapiens do not naturally wear clothes, use tools, live in the cold (Unless you were born clothed, able to type, and with a thick layer of fur or blubber to survive the cold) etc etc etc... However, we have the abillitity to adapt to our envirnoment better than any other animal. When the warm plains and jungles of Africa were to full for all of us, we learned how to farm and settled the middle east or make clothes to stay warm in Europe, you get the point, I think.
As for our newest need to adjust, we are crowding the planet, killing off species after species mostly for our food consumption and are at risk of wipping out our own species. Accordingly, a more vegan-like mindset is a critical adaptation for the prolonged survival of our species and one I feel we will all better embrace in the future.
It's difficult for 21st century people to make judgments, (IMO), about what's normal for Homo Sapiens. We (well, many Americans) eat processed food with the enzymes and nutrients pre-stripped out for maximum convenience, we eat stuff that's been GM'd to grow better and last longer, and we eat stuff that's got hormones injected in it. (Allusions to meat vs. veggies intentionally left out so as not to start a shooting war. )
Would an example of Homo Sapiens in 10,000 BCE get the recommended nutrients from a vegan diet? Probably not...but I would imagine they weren't getting that anyway. Lifespan was probably 30, so it wasn't much of a concern.
I'm in the process of slowly moving into a vegan diet trial. I recommend that anyone doing so fully educate themselves; it's not exactly what the American culture is set up for.
It's a good point that you need a lot of land and water to grow food to be fed to farm animals. Of course, the way to resolve that is to go vegan-- cutting out the meet but not giving up eggs & dairy wouldn't do that.
Now while I can see vegetarianism as a viable option, veganism is just too extreme to me. First, it's a royal pain in the neck not only to find truly vegan food (nearly impossible if you're travelling and have to eat out) but also to eat with others, who don't share your radical (by today's standards) views.
Second, you run a real risk of not getting enough vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron-- you need to take supplements or rely on hard-to-get, exotic products to address that. I think the loud and clear message here is that Homo Sapiens is not naturally vegan, otherwise, we wouldn't need vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron. Now going against nature to me is inherently going in the wrong direction.
If being vegan makes one feel good and wholesome, I can only be happy for that person. However, mass veganism, in my opinion, is a total non-starter. Vegans will probably always be seen as extremists of some sort. Being vocal about their veganism could even do damage to the religious traditions they represent.
Being vegan is not as difficult as you make it out to be and there are at least 1001 online resources to help get you started.
In regards to nutritional deficiencies, it's VERY IMPORTANT to realize that the deficiencies you list are also common in diets where animal products are eaten, so it's not something inherently wrong with a vegan diet.
Vitamin D deficiency is caused by our lack of living naturally - outdoors in a tropical environment with very little clothes.
B12 deficiency is caused by the over-sanitized food we eat. If you were eating fruits and veggies from your own garden without sterilizing them, you'll get B12.
Calcium is a non-issue with vegans - in fact, your body excretes calcium in the presence of animal protein, so you need MORE as a meat eater.
Iron is also a non issue for vegans.
Supplementation is recommended for ANY diet in this day and age because we are in constant contact with stress, pollution, poisoned water supplies, etc. etc.
I think those who are genuinely interested in making a difference to the world, should try a 30-day vegan challenge, but realize that their body WILL detox for the first two weeks while it purges itself of toxins that your previous diet included.
For those who need advice, feel free to PM me... I've been vegan over 10 years and have been raising a vegan family within that time.
...that humanity is going to go extinct if it doesn't go vegan is not quite as obvious as the fact that if I don't put on some clothes when it's -20 I'm going to freeze to death
I think I'll stand by my view that being vegan is inherently unnatural for most of us, humans. But if it makes one feel better and be better, that is great!
Humanity won't die out if it doesn't go vegan. That is just ridiculous.
Learn the facts and you might change your mind.
The meat industry is likely the most unsustainable industry on the planet. That means we cannot survive at the rate this industry is moving unless we radically change our eating (and lifestyle) habits.
On top of that, if the government didn't subsidize cattle farmers, a hamburger would cost you over $30. Of course we ALL end up paying for that burger one way or another.
Actually I can know all the facts and it we will still not die out. There are plenty of other animals people would start eating. Rats, snakes, mice, dogs, cats, and all sorts of others. We are in NO danger of running out of animals.
Actually I can know all the facts and it we will still not die out. There are plenty of other animals people would start eating. Rats, snakes, mice, dogs, cats, and all sorts of others. We are in NO danger of running out of animals.
Do you think the human race is THAT intent on eating animals? The solution is right in front of you - a plant-based diet is far more realistic for long-term sustainability.
The millions of starving kids on this planet are dying BECAUSE a small population of people decided they can't give up meat. This is very sad to say the least.
Call it what you wish. If one decides to cause harm when they have clear options, the consequences will fall on them first.
What is sad is the fact that the consequences of eating meat will affect even those that don't eat meat. In a sense, it can be described at the ultimate form of selfishness.
We should move this away from judging, IMO. From my newbie Buddhist (newddhist?) point of view, a judging vegetarian seems like someone who is getting one thing, and completely missing another.
Comments
Agree 100% about the preaching part, people have to explore and try food out to see what works for them. For me being a 95% veg works.
As one of my teachers once said, nobody ever got enlightened by pointing fingers at others!
And whatever re-evuluate means, I promise to do it ASAP!
Palzang
Always remember that reading the Comic is NSFW!
Palzang
I only bring happiness to the masses. Every once in a while I stumble upon the truth.
Point taken and I hope I didn't come across as pointing fingers even though I see it could be taken that way. I guess what I was trying to say is the same message your teacher once said, I just did not say it as well.
By re-evaluate I am reffering to change on a macro-scale but it will have to start on an individual bases. I can't ask someone to do anything I am not able and willing to do.
The change I dream of is more diversity in food consumption (more greens, reds, oranges, yellows, and purples) less corn based foods, less consumption of meat, more hands-on knowledge of where food comes from, more awareness of what we are eating and when we are eating. This simple stuff will make all the difference and create a new demand paradigm of what food is in the contemporary world.
Palzang
And you do, my friend. I was just saying that reading you at work can lead to outbursts of the kind Dhammachick experienced! Which then leads to your co-workers casting the evil eye at you and so forth...
Palzang
You're the best Palzang. I'm glad to be back here in full force.
Palzang
Palzang
Go run a few miles a day.
Can't do 'em, bad knees. Same for running. I try to swim, but it's difficult to find the time to get to the pool (we have a very nice indoor pool run by the county in the next town over).
Palzang
Here you go. Let me know if you need more.
(all listed are vegan and promote a vegan lifestyle to their patients)
Neal Barnard, M.D.
Michael Klaper, M.D.
John A. McDougall, M.D.
Joel Furhman, M.D.
I definitely agree that it is implied in the precept.
I doubt that Gautama Buddha's preferred foodstuff was based on meat. It would be no surprise if he were vegetarian. If you look at the history of India, it has always been majority non-meat eating country except when it was influenced by the Muslims and British. Meat has always been a luxury in Asia.
I was looking at recipes and I remembered the short essay entitled The First Step by Leo Tolstoy at the end of it. This one made an impact again to me:
... That is dreadful. Not the suffering and death of the animals, but that that man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity -- that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself -- and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel. And how deeply seated in the human heart is the injunction not to take it life!
Also in the same recipe book, : please check if this is a correct quote from Dhammapada 130
All tremble at violence, all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill or cause another to kill
Another one from the recipe book, from one of the most original thinkers of our time, George Bernard Shaw
We pray on Sundays that we may have light
To guide our footsteps on the path we thread
We are sick of wars, we dont want to fight
And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead
Maybe I should mention this also, I read somewhere that if we can control the urge of the tongue, everything else will be easier to control.
Now animal cruelty doesn't end with diet. Most of us live in the prosperous West and therefore make extensive use of industrially manufactured goods. To make transportation, modern medecine, clothing and most every other attribute of this life possible, some pollution and wilderness elimination needs to take place. A lot of animals suffer that way.
Really, if we look at the issue soberly, eating meat and other animal products is a drop in the bucket as far as man-made animal suffering goes.
As living beings we devour each other directly or indirectly-- that is the nature of life on planet Earth. I'm all for decreasing the amount of that devouring whenever reasonably possible. However, if I don't want to devour at all, my only choice is to die.
All good points. What we forget sometimes is that humans are still in a very barbaric stage. The only reason we think we have moved forward more than we have is because we have cooler toys. We really need to focus on new technologies and methods that are cleaner and safer for us and the environment.
I can only speak for myself as a vegetarian, but I'm not suffering from the delusion that I'm ending animal cruelty. I do my part, and it seems (for me) to jibe with my dharma practice.
One thing to note, since you're going down this road...
A very large percentage of the crop land you're talking about is used to feed livestock, not humans. They are tied together. The math may be a wee bit more complex than what you think.
This is why free range meats are a groovy idea.
Agree with you 100 percent....
That's because I'm always right. Just ask me. :wtf:
This is a very important point to remember for those who are eating meat.
It is a fact that the grains used to feed livestock could go directly to feeding the entire worlds population several times over.
This excludes the fact that the amount of water used in livestock is literally hundreds of times more than growing produce.
We could also throw in the environmental implications of raising livestock...
When you really look at it, there are so many negative aspects to using animal products and very few (debatable) positive points.
I always thought that was the reason for vegetarianism in Buddhism...
Personally, I do eat meat, but mostly because my Mum and Dad do, and they sort of pay for all of my food. (and cook). But my stepmum to be is vegetarian, so who knows...?
Now while I can see vegetarianism as a viable option, veganism is just too extreme to me. First, it's a royal pain in the neck not only to find truly vegan food (nearly impossible if you're travelling and have to eat out) but also to eat with others, who don't share your radical (by today's standards) views.
Second, you run a real risk of not getting enough vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron-- you need to take supplements or rely on hard-to-get, exotic products to address that. I think the loud and clear message here is that Homo Sapiens is not naturally vegan, otherwise, we wouldn't need vitamin D, vitamin B12, calcium and iron. Now going against nature to me is inherently going in the wrong direction.
If being vegan makes one feel good and wholesome, I can only be happy for that person. However, mass veganism, in my opinion, is a total non-starter. Vegans will probably always be seen as extremists of some sort. Being vocal about their veganism could even do damage to the religious traditions they represent.
I'm sorry but I have no idea what NSFW means
Oh *feels totally stupid*
Thanks Comic
Homo Sapiens do not naturally wear clothes, use tools, live in the cold (Unless you were born clothed, able to type, and with a thick layer of fur or blubber to survive the cold) etc etc etc... However, we have the abillitity to adapt to our envirnoment better than any other animal. When the warm plains and jungles of Africa were to full for all of us, we learned how to farm and settled the middle east or make clothes to stay warm in Europe, you get the point, I think.
As for our newest need to adjust, we are crowding the planet, killing off species after species mostly for our food consumption and are at risk of wipping out our own species. Accordingly, a more vegan-like mindset is a critical adaptation for the prolonged survival of our species and one I feel we will all better embrace in the future.
Would an example of Homo Sapiens in 10,000 BCE get the recommended nutrients from a vegan diet? Probably not...but I would imagine they weren't getting that anyway. Lifespan was probably 30, so it wasn't much of a concern.
I'm in the process of slowly moving into a vegan diet trial. I recommend that anyone doing so fully educate themselves; it's not exactly what the American culture is set up for.
Being vegan is not as difficult as you make it out to be and there are at least 1001 online resources to help get you started.
In regards to nutritional deficiencies, it's VERY IMPORTANT to realize that the deficiencies you list are also common in diets where animal products are eaten, so it's not something inherently wrong with a vegan diet.
Vitamin D deficiency is caused by our lack of living naturally - outdoors in a tropical environment with very little clothes.
B12 deficiency is caused by the over-sanitized food we eat. If you were eating fruits and veggies from your own garden without sterilizing them, you'll get B12.
Calcium is a non-issue with vegans - in fact, your body excretes calcium in the presence of animal protein, so you need MORE as a meat eater.
Iron is also a non issue for vegans.
Supplementation is recommended for ANY diet in this day and age because we are in constant contact with stress, pollution, poisoned water supplies, etc. etc.
I think those who are genuinely interested in making a difference to the world, should try a 30-day vegan challenge, but realize that their body WILL detox for the first two weeks while it purges itself of toxins that your previous diet included.
For those who need advice, feel free to PM me... I've been vegan over 10 years and have been raising a vegan family within that time.
Good luck
...that humanity is going to go extinct if it doesn't go vegan is not quite as obvious as the fact that if I don't put on some clothes when it's -20 I'm going to freeze to death
I think I'll stand by my view that being vegan is inherently unnatural for most of us, humans. But if it makes one feel better and be better, that is great!
Learn the facts and you might change your mind.
The meat industry is likely the most unsustainable industry on the planet. That means we cannot survive at the rate this industry is moving unless we radically change our eating (and lifestyle) habits.
On top of that, if the government didn't subsidize cattle farmers, a hamburger would cost you over $30. Of course we ALL end up paying for that burger one way or another.
Do you think the human race is THAT intent on eating animals? The solution is right in front of you - a plant-based diet is far more realistic for long-term sustainability.
The millions of starving kids on this planet are dying BECAUSE a small population of people decided they can't give up meat. This is very sad to say the least.
My daughter just told me that plenty of people eat bugs and she would know.
Very sad indeed.
Very judgmental of you.
Call it what you wish. If one decides to cause harm when they have clear options, the consequences will fall on them first.
What is sad is the fact that the consequences of eating meat will affect even those that don't eat meat. In a sense, it can be described at the ultimate form of selfishness.